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Units, Swarms, Grunts, NPEs, and how to make the game last. Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, June 22, 2014 8:25:53 AM
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Sthlrd2 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
EmporerDragon wrote:
Another thought would be something that counters Swarms by minimizing the potency of the swarms themselves.

Perhaps something like:

Intimidating Presence - Enemy non-unique characters attacking this character ignore all bonuses to Attack and Damage.


That doesn't even need to be non unique. Reverting to base stats only is something that would heavily favor melee and Jedi.


And that is something that will severely cripple non spit Vong squads. Non Spit Vong don't need any hate whatsoever. They need more love.


This is true.

One very hard thing about design is that when you attempt to make a counter, there is often collateral damage. A classic example is jedi reflexes. It was intended to be a lancer counter, and it is annoying for the lancer, but it kills melee swarms dead in their tracks. It hurts melee in general, which was not the intent. Targeting a smaller, more specific group is better. Instead of Jedi reflexes, we then came out with force-attuned reflexes. Now instead of screwing all melee, it just hurts flight and wall-climber. Much more specific.

FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, June 22, 2014 3:55:06 PM
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Sthlrd2 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

That doesn't even need to be non unique. Reverting to base stats only is something that would heavily favor melee and Jedi.


And that is something that will severely cripple non spit Vong squads. Non Spit Vong don't need any hate whatsoever. They need more love.


Good point. Shaper modifies base stats, so that would still count, but other bonuses would go away. In any case, it's not something that should be widespread, but it would be interesting on a Unique piece or two.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Sunday, June 22, 2014 6:56:34 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
In any case, it's not something that should be widespread, but it would be interesting on a Unique piece or two.


Which was my thought when the idea popped into my head. It would be for guys like Bane and Krayt; Big guys who take up most of your squad, and who shouldn't be able to be nickle-and-dimed to death the moment they step out into the open.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:30:48 PM
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I was thinking of characters with a cost in the twenties. Just a couple of uniques. *shrug*
fingersandteeth
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 5:45:07 AM
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you have to consider what the real issues are.

Activations are part of the game and if you nerf shooter swarms then you go back to people spamming mice (not that its gone anywhere) because of WotCs Gha.

Having a swarm of tempo control troopers that can do a mass of damage is a bit of a headache to design around. Strafers might keep them in check but strafers used to cause so many headaches for many squad types which is why the needed curtailing.

The intimidating presence is an interesting one, for todays game perhaps

Intimidating Presence - Non-adjacent enemy non-unique characters attacking this character ignore all bonuses to Attack and Damage.

As a side point that is probably best for another thread I've often thought about introducing a game errata for the Vsets. Perhaps this could be an actual card set release where we, as the community, decide on which Vset pieces need a tweak and those pieces are distributed as a mini (micro?) set.

Certain things i might consider are
Poggle losing Rapport and/or SD10 on geonosians
Klats reduced to 20 Hp
Dr Evasan gains a +16 save on enemy damage

etc.

This is something we can discuss in another thread if the idea has any merit.
leshippy
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 5:56:53 AM
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One thing that i have kicked around a bit is an advanced disruptive. 9 to 12 squares instead of 6. I just haven't figure out the character to get it on, or what faction. I think it would pretty much need to be a non fringe unique piece.
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 6:12:31 AM
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leshippy wrote:
One thing that i have kicked around a bit is an advanced disruptive. 9 to 12 squares instead of 6. I just haven't figure out the character to get it on, or what faction. I think it would pretty much need to be a non fringe unique piece.


Maybe something like:

Blackmail: Replaces attack; Line of site; Target enemy disrupts allied commander effects within 6 squares.

Or some sort of Exectute Slicer Code like ability to send a virus to your opponents team, and make it so a character with the computer virus disrupts ce's, and characters within 6 squares of the infected ally also disrupt CE's while they're within range.

I still question if this is going to fit the problem. I could be very wrong, but even without commander effects, it seems like lobot + all klat assassins is all you need to win the game, and the commander effects arent the issue in that case.

General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 7:07:05 AM
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So two problems (the Geonosians, and Klats) could both benefit from a cheaper piece like this:
Bomb maker cost 20
Detonator (replaces turn; sight, one character with self destruct loses self destruct, that character and all adjacent characters takes damage equal to the self destruct damage)

This would cripple Geonosians, weaken Klats and also sadly some Vong/Ugi teams (however this could just as easily be made a force power so it wouldn't work against Vong, but then Talon/Palleon would protect against it too.) All without errata.

Or more friendly version:

Corporate Sector Explosive Ordanance Disposal Trooper
Cost 20
Damage Reduction
Jamming Equipment (characters with self destruct within 6(or 12) squares, lose self destruct)

At this point all that is left is the Daala, maybe a Yoda or Jedi to counter prideful because "they are too proud" Or an errata saying prideful only boosts attack?
fingersandteeth
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 7:47:30 AM
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the problem with disruptive is that a lot of the new boosts are now from special abilities that can't be suppressed as they are given about by SA's rather than CE's.

It was a reaction to ABM and increasing distraction and disruptive but its gotten a bit out of hand.

Its possible to have counter abilities to special abilities, that has been available since the 1st Ackbar.

I would rather any SA inhibitions to stay with the 6 square bubble. We should try to avoid convoluting the game with greater "bubble" ranges. There is already some of this but its kind of on the fringes of the game and i think it should stay that way.

Detonator or Bomb Disposal expert (Characters within 6 squares lose self destruct).

Jammer (Characters within 6 squares lose cloak)

Arrogance (characters within 6 squares lose Prideful bonuses)

etc

Obviously, these are hard counters and so the pieces they end up being on should be well thought out.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 8:44:37 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:


Jammer (Characters within 6 squares lose cloak)


Realistically Sensors is already this. IT counters cloaked stealth and super stealth.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 9:16:40 AM
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countrydude82487 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:


Jammer (Characters within 6 squares lose cloak)


Realistically Sensors is already this. IT counters cloaked stealth and super stealth.


Yeah sensors rocks, I think the self destruct inhibitor would be nice
leshippy
Posted: Monday, June 23, 2014 11:16:18 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:


Maybe something like:

Or some sort of Exectute Slicer Code like ability to send a virus to your opponents team, and make it so a character with the computer virus disrupts ce's, and characters within 6 squares of the infected ally also disrupt CE's while they're within range.



I like where this could go. Execute virus - Enemy droids with small bases get -4 Defense, and gain speed 2 or loose special abilities. I am not sure what all would have to be worked out, but it might be something that could work against mice and other droids. Just throwing it out there.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:35:21 AM
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countrydude82487 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:


Jammer (Characters within 6 squares lose cloak)


Realistically Sensors is already this. IT counters cloaked stealth and super stealth.


I'm aware.

Its more than just making a character lose cloak though, it basically takes cover away from everyone within 6. Its very strong and is basically unused only due to the faction its in. Having this in the imperials, separatists or rebels could have serious ramifications.

Simplifying counters allows them to be cheaper and possibly fit into factions that need them.

Virus Airdrop - Enemy droids that activate within 6 squares of this character gain -4 attack and -4 defense and speed 2 until the start of their next turn. Small non-unique droids that activate within 6 squares of this character are defeated.

That might hamper mice swarms that are used to out-activate people. There is always the challenge of getting the character to where the droids are though.
harryg
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:47:36 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
countrydude82487 wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:


Jammer (Characters within 6 squares lose cloak)


Realistically Sensors is already this. IT counters cloaked stealth and super stealth.


I'm aware.

Its more than just making a character lose cloak though, it basically takes cover away from everyone within 6. Its very strong and is basically unused only due to the faction its in. Having this in the imperials, separatists or rebels could have serious ramifications.

Simplifying counters allows them to be cheaper and possibly fit into factions that need them.

Virus Airdrop - Enemy droids that activate within 6 squares of this character gain -4 attack and -4 defense and speed 2 until the start of their next turn. Small non-unique droids that activate within 6 squares of this character are defeated.

That might hamper mice swarms that are used to out-activate people. There is always the challenge of getting the character to where the droids are though.

Sensors is in Separatists. The Armored Scout Tank from Vehicles of War has it.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 11:54:44 AM
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Fair point, i glossed that it was on the scout tank.

FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 12:27:16 PM
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I always thought Chewbacca should dominate Mouse Droids (rangeless):

Wookiee Roar: Replaces Attacks, enemies named Mouse Droid are considered activated; save 16.
Wookiee Roar: Replaces Attacks, enemies named Mouse Droid are considered activated. Opponent chooses one enemy to ignore this ability.


A save based on cost would hurt activation-based swarms a lot:

Wookiee Roar - Replaces attacks, roll a save for each enemy within 6 squares. If the save is higher than the enemy's cost, the enemy is considered activated.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 6:58:40 PM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
you have to consider what the real issues are.

Activations are part of the game and if you nerf shooter swarms then you go back to people spamming mice (not that its gone anywhere) because of WotCs Gha.

Having a swarm of tempo control troopers that can do a mass of damage is a bit of a headache to design around. Strafers might keep them in check but strafers used to cause so many headaches for many squad types which is why the needed curtailing.

The intimidating presence is an interesting one, for todays game perhaps

Intimidating Presence - Non-adjacent enemy non-unique characters attacking this character ignore all bonuses to Attack and Damage.

As a side point that is probably best for another thread I've often thought about introducing a game errata for the Vsets. Perhaps this could be an actual card set release where we, as the community, decide on which Vset pieces need a tweak and those pieces are distributed as a mini (micro?) set.

Certain things i might consider are
Poggle losing Rapport and/or SD10 on geonosians
Klats reduced to 20 Hp
Dr Evasan gains a +16 save on enemy damage

etc.

This is something we can discuss in another thread if the idea has any merit.



I believe this is worth its own thread. I do believe that at this stage in the game, we can readily identify some of the things that need/deserve changes. I like all the ones you have listed are a good start.
SignerJ
Posted: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:15:33 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Wookiee Roar - Replaces attacks, roll a save for each enemy within 6 squares. If the save is higher than the enemy's cost, the enemy is considered activated.


This is a very interesting idea.
Amadeus
Posted: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:01:47 PM
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SignerJ wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Wookiee Roar - Replaces attacks, roll a save for each enemy within 6 squares. If the save is higher than the enemy's cost, the enemy is considered activated.


This is a very interesting idea.


I too really like this. It also feels like less of a patch and more of a cool gameplay mechanic that can be useful in most squads. Even if you're not facing a swarm, squads almost always have pieces costed under 20 that would want to be careful of this.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 8:10:37 PM
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I actually think the most fundamental issues of the game are from WOTC, especially tempo control which feels like it's very significant again at the moment in the high activation meta we currently have. I think Klats, Drones, etc are missteps, but they don't alter the game too much. Drones are vulnerable to Momaw, lots of shooters, and disruptive. Klats are more of an issue in the theoretical way that they obsolete other pieces in their point range - but I've never been too bothered by them in game. Daala is the one v-set piece I'm really concerned about - I think that swarms of high attack and high damage shooters with access to Pellaeon and Ozzel are so strong that they're overall the best squad in the meta right now - it doesn't mean they'll win GenCon, but I think they're overly strong overall.
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