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Post subject: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:20 pm
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Talon Karrde, Information Broker RM:Talon Karrde
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Disruptive
Rival (Imperials)
Bribery 10
Mobile Attack
Twin Attack

CE:Fringe Characters who cost less then this character gain +4 attack

"You can't even call your wife on a comlink without Talon Karrde hearing about it."
―Han Solo

Talon screws enemy Lobots and CE's, which is fitting seeing as he was going against Thrawn pretty hardcore later on in that series, and Thrawn squads almost exclusively use Lobot and CE's. Mobile and Twin keep him safe and still doing stuff and to cap it off he can't be in an Imperial squad. The CE I was going to say "smugglers gain +4 attack" but low costed fringe stuff could use a boost that is also fringe.

He's only 11 more then Lobot but may totally be worth it. I'd like him to be one of the better pieces just because he is so cool, and the old one is so not.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:51 pm
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One new item that I was kicking around was this....and I am not sure if it should be a SA or CE.

At the end of the round this character allows one allied piece to move 6 squares. I am not sure if should be board wide or with in 6.

Talon is one of the pieces that I thought could use it though.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:56 pm
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I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:01 pm
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If you want an ability like that it could be at the beginning of the round, after initiative is determined. Basically he gives out Intuition once per round.


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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:45 pm
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So why not make his CE like old Revan's?

Also he should probably have Pilot.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:28 pm
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CE:Talon Karrde, Information Broker RM:Talon Karrde
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Disruptive
Rival (Imperials)
Bribery 10
Mobile Attack
Twin Attack

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"You can't even call your wife on a comlink without Talon Karrde hearing about it."
―Han Solo

Added in Les' idea about movement before the round. It's old Revan's CE almost exactly. Made it Fringe follower though

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:00 pm
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IMO you should give him Ysalimiri. You're making him a big investment for the squad and he seems to want to mess with opponents, giving him Ysalimiri will give more factions ways to deal with excessive force powers.

He taught Thrawn how to do it so its theme.

There is a significant amount of NPE concerns with ABM and some other force powers. I think a single Ysalimiri piece in the fringe is a good way to give people a method of playing around ABM without totally killing it. The OR would then have to consider methods of winning in absence of ABM.

I think its a good time for the game and i couldn't think of a better fit than Talon.
The fact that you've given him Imperial Rival makes the fit even better, so you don't have imperial triple bubbles.

Talon is a great character and i think deserves to have a really solid function in the game. Fringe Ysalimiri does it in spades.

A suggestion, obviously, but one i thought you should at least consider.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:09 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
IMO you should give him Ysalimiri. You're making him a big investment for the squad and he seems to want to mess with opponents, giving him Ysalimiri will give more factions ways to deal with excessive force powers.

He taught Thrawn how to do it so its theme.

There is a significant amount of NPE concerns with ABM and some other force powers. I think a single Ysalimiri piece in the fringe is a good way to give people a method of playing around ABM without totally killing it. The OR would then have to consider methods of winning in absence of ABM.

I think its a good time for the game and i couldn't think of a better fit than Talon.
The fact that you've given him Imperial Rival makes the fit even better, so you don't have imperial triple bubbles.

Talon is a great character and i think deserves to have a really solid function in the game. Fringe Ysalimiri does it in spades.

A suggestion, obviously, but one i thought you should at least consider.


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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:40 pm
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Talon Karrde, Information Broker RM:Talon Karrde
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Disruptive
Rival (Imperials)
Ysalamiri
Mobile Attack
Twin Attack

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Added Ysalamini per Deri's suggestion.

Now comes the hard part, this guy is fringe. Based on his abilities he will probably shoot straight to Tier 1 and not pass go. His costing is where the big issues come in. If he costs too much then he's great in theory but won't see much action. If he costs too little then he will be in every squad (save Imperials).

Also with Marn Hippogryph getting Bribery in set 5 Talon could stand to lose that ability so I removed it in favor of Ysalamiri. The CE I'm not sold on but he should probably have one if only so he doesn't qualify as a follower for CE's. Plus it could be fun to have a minor movement breaker in fringe.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:21 am
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Weeks wrote:
Talon Karrde, Information Broker RM:Talon Karrde
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Disruptive
Rival (Imperials)
Ysalamiri
Mobile Attack
Twin Attack
Smugglers Alliance (if your squad contains only fringe pieces Allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Talked with Graham over the weekend about this guy a good bit. He suggested moving the Chiss Captains thing over to Talon. I agree, Talon now does what he did in the thrawn books, he gets together a rag tag group of misfits (fringe guys) and makes em all pretty badass. Disruptive, Ysalamiri, fringe boosts, fringe movement breaker. Talon gets it done.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:52 pm
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Small suggestion, perhaps rename Smugglers Alliance to something a bit more utilitarian, so it could be used by other big Fringe names and you don't have to worry about stacking.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:03 pm
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Smugglers Alliance (or whatever it is called can't be a SA). It might be too good to even be a CE.

Atris
Talon
Echanis

All 30 damage shots all the time. Even worse if you add Jabba CL for cunning.

Or Mouse Droids shooting (I know you guys would fix that)

Maybe it could be 1 character gets the bonus or something?

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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:47 pm
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Echanhis will probably be one of the strongest combos, but it's not worse than other combinations. Playing them with Bastila lets them always shoot for 30 damage, and you also get ABM's boardwide Disruptive. Playing them in Imperials gives them access to things like Ysalimiri, Swap, Opportunist, tempo control, and so on that they won't get in a Fringe-only squad.

Yeah, it could be strong, but I think it's unreasonable to say that +4/+10 from a SA is overpowered when it requires you to play an all-Fringe squad, which is a pretty serious disadvantage. Especially without any playtesting.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:11 pm
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Echo wrote:
Echanhis will probably be one of the strongest combos, but it's not worse than other combinations. Playing them with Bastila lets them always shoot for 30 damage, and you also get ABM's boardwide Disruptive. Playing them in Imperials gives them access to things like Ysalimiri, Swap, Opportunist, tempo control, and so on that they won't get in a Fringe-only squad.

Yeah, it could be strong, but I think it's unreasonable to say that +4/+10 from a SA is overpowered when it requires you to play an all-Fringe squad, which is a pretty serious disadvantage. Especially without any playtesting.


+1

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:39 pm
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you could always make the smugglers alliance restricted to within 6 squares, that would at least require some careful play to make the best use of it.

But i do think Talon will need something like that. He is very defensive but unlike football, defense doesn't win championships in SWM

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:52 pm
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My response was somewhat knee-jerk reaction, but to just hand out +4/+10 boardwide for zero cost seems very, very breakable. And not just with Echanis.

Xizor
Talon
Twilek BSV
Abyssian Black Sun Thug
czerka
etc.

you get +16/40 on the front end and +21/50 on the back end from 8 and 18 point dudes seems really good.

And I don't see playing all fringe necessarily a detriment. You still get plenty of door control so that isn't a weakness.

Talon Kardde is one of my favorite characters and I def think he should be awesome, I just don't want to see us design ourselves into a box (like we did somewhat with Bastilla and her boardwide damage increase).

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:41 am
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urbanjedi wrote:
My response was somewhat knee-jerk reaction, but to just hand out +4/+10 boardwide for zero cost seems very, very breakable. And not just with Echanis.

Xizor
Talon
Twilek BSV
Abyssian Black Sun Thug
czerka
etc.

you get +16/40 on the front end and +21/50 on the back end from 8 and 18 point dudes seems really good.

And I don't see playing all fringe necessarily a detriment. You still get plenty of door control so that isn't a weakness.

Talon Kardde is one of my favorite characters and I def think he should be awesome, I just don't want to see us design ourselves into a box (like we did somewhat with Bastilla and her boardwide damage increase).


It's not no cost though, Talon is 38. To be effective he needs to be up in the fight, and his Ysalamiri hurts atris' meditation. Lets see how it fairs in a few tests before we go changing anything.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:50 am
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Here is what I came up with as a squad.

Talon 38
Xixor 30
NBSV 23
Dug BSV 20
Czaerka
Rodian Ass. x5
R7x2

Rodian gain super stealth, have accurate and against living they are +18 for 40 another +2 if unique. Yes it is a tough squad but not unbeatable. They only have 20 HP so they go down like punks to lancer and yubuck

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:02 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Rodian Ass. x5

Gotta love some hot Rodian Ass.

Well made point though. Black Sun guys could get really strong. Ysalamiri thrown in helps too.

My thought was more this

41 Atris
38 Talon
27 Lobot
88 x4 Echani Handmaidens
x2 uggies

Echani's are at +15 all the time and can choose to be in the bubble or out of it and go up to +19. Every shot hits for 30 and Bastilla can't knock them down until Talon is dead. It's not a ton of acts but it could be really strong. You also always have the option to bring in Jabba for even more firepower!

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:13 pm
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Just going to mention, as I just caught it in Bothan Sacrifice, that unconditional damage boosts in SA's are bad. Mouse Droid Syndrome in full effect with this. With the Fringe emphasis, you need the printed damage restriction. The creation of the Mouse Droid and ever since Roger, Roger, it is pretty clear such SA's are a bit too dangerous, needing some rather silly restrictions. Something to think about.

I do have a small request for Smuggler's Alliance (still hoping for a name change). Make it Fringe and Independant Outfit characters. Thinking ahead, I've got some ideas starting to form.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:05 pm
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Sithborg wrote:
Just going to mention, as I just caught it in Bothan Sacrifice, that unconditional damage boosts in SA's are bad. Mouse Droid Syndrome in full effect with this. With the Fringe emphasis, you need the printed damage restriction. The creation of the Mouse Droid and ever since Roger, Roger, it is pretty clear such SA's are a bit too dangerous, needing some rather silly restrictions. Something to think about.

I do have a small request for Smuggler's Alliance (still hoping for a name change). Make it Fringe and Independant Outfit characters. Thinking ahead, I've got some ideas starting to form.


That's fine about including Indy Outfit guys. If you have a better name for it throw it out, nothing is written in stone.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:30 am
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Weeks wrote:
Talon Karrde, Information Broker
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Rival (Imperials)
Ysalamiri
Mobile Attack
Twin Attack
Smugglers Alliance (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Dropped Disruptive, because I don't think he needs that AND Ysalimiri. Added Independent Outfit to Smuggler's Alliance. That needs a new name, though; any ideas?

Probably good for PT now, but I'll wait for one of the other designers to confirm it before adding the asterisk.


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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:05 pm
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PT it.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:33 am
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I like having both Disruptive and Ysalamri on the same piece. It totally fits the character. If I would change anything I would drop Twin and change his damage to 20

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:37 pm
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Like this:

Weeks wrote:
Talon Karrde, Information Broker
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
20 Dam

Unique
Rival (Imperials)
Disruptive
Ysalamiri
Mobile Attack
Smugglers Alliance (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


It's an interesting piece. He's not very offensive or defensive, but has 2 of the best denial abilities in the whole game, then he greatly boosts your squad if it's entirely Fringe with a great CE for Fringe and Smugglers Alliance. I'm fine with this. 38 points is a lot of points, but there is worry about Smuggler's Alliance being too good anyway. At that cost he's probably only worth his cost if you're playing an all-Fringe squad, but then he's solid. He compares interestingly to Xizor: They both give a +4/+10, but Talon has a lot more utility with his CE and the denial abilities, but Xizor is much tougher with +10 HP, +4 Defense, and Pheromones. Talon can also shoot with Mobile and costs 8 more points. Talon's +4/+10 is a boardwide SA, while Xizor's is a range 6 CE. Most importantly, Talon needs to be played with just Fringe, while Xizor can be combined with things like Thrawn for Opportunist.

I'm fine with this for PT. The main thing we need is people trying to break Smuggler's Alliance. And a new name for it, lol.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information BrokerPostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:22 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Talon Karrde, Information Broker
Fringe

38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
20 Dam

Unique
Rival (Imperials)
Disruptive
Ysalamiri
Mobile Attack
Unaligned (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Changed the name of Smuggler's Alliance to Unaligned. I think it fits, and it's general enough to be reused.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:25 pm
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Are we happy where this guy is at? Call him done?

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:36 pm
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He still needs a lot of testing, because he's going to be a big shift in the game. More Fringe Disruptive, the first Fringe Ysalimiri, and a big boost for an all-Fringe squad are all big things to do, and he's only been tested once with the Bespin guys (which was really more of a test for them).


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:47 pm
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I will see if I can get a play test in with him.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:03 pm
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So as far as the all Fringe aspect goes here is what I came up with.
Handmaidens are no better with him then they are with the IMPs. With all Fringe they lose accurate and swap. possible for a bit more damage, but I am not a huge fan of cunning.

I was kicking around something that looked like this.
Talon
Atris
Jaba
Handmaiden x3
Door control and mice.

Now with the Rodian Assassins I think are more powerful but fragile.

Talon
Xizor
NBSV
Dug BSV
TBSV
Rodian Assassin x3
Czerka Science
Mouse x2
ugy x2

198

I played it with out the Czerka and and in another Rodian in stead and it cost me the game. New CAD/Aurra IG88A took me down in three rounds.

I am not sure if there are any more big damage breakers out there with being all fringe. Maybe IG88s, but I am not sure. Maybe IG87, but they are going to be much better in a sep squad.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:58 am
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Quote:
Unaligned (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain get +4 Attack and +10 Damage)

Mouse fix, allowing droids:

Unaligned (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies with a printed damage rating greater than 0 get +4 Attack and +10 Damage)

Mouse fix ala Bothan Sacrifice (no droids or mounted weapons):

Unaligned (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, living allies get +4 Attack and +10 Damage)


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:30 am
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Ok, main thing we need to think about is whether we truly want Ysalimiri in every faction. There haven't been any tests that I've seen that show that its broken on him. If you aren't playing him in an all-Fringe squad, you're often going to be overpaying for him. Yeah, he'll be awesome those times you play against Bastila, but if you're playing against say a Rebel squad with few Force powers or a Vong squad, then playing him outside of all-Fringe means you get very, very little out of him in that matchup. So without Unaligned, he's very swingy with Ysalimiri. If you ARE playing an all-Fringe squad, Ysalimiri is probably fine, because being all-Fringe just kneecaps you so much since that means no Tempo control, your only movement breaker is Talon's CE, no mass-killing pieces, and few good ways to increase Attack and/or Damage.

So I don't think it's broken, but it still might not be something we want to do. I'm very wary about it. More than just hurting ABM, he would somewhat nerf a lot of Force-focused squads. Obviously this is already a possibility in Imperials, but do we want it to be available to EVERY faction?

My thoughts are that I'm actually okay with it, but I also totally understand the argument against it.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:36 am
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Also, I'd like anyone who cares to to weigh in on this. Generally we keep the designers as the only ones involved in design, but in this very specific instance (to Ysalimiri or to not Ysalimiri) I think we're making a larger than normal change to the game, so other designers inputs should be welcome. Please keep it reasonable, though. :)


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:56 am
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I had a thought on this.

I was thinking overall Yislamiri, Distraction for 38 is a bit pricey and I don't think you would build around it.

But in Republic it might give you this option.
In a swap squad you could bring in Talon and Jarel or Embo and be able to get some more movement out of them with the CE. I am not sure this is any worse then yoBuck swap though.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:17 am
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Echo wrote:
Ok, main thing we need to think about is whether we truly want Ysalimiri in every faction. There haven't been any tests that I've seen that show that its broken on him. If you aren't playing him in an all-Fringe squad, you're often going to be overpaying for him. Yeah, he'll be awesome those times you play against Bastila, but if you're playing against say a Rebel squad with few Force powers or a Vong squad, then playing him outside of all-Fringe means you get very, very little out of him in that matchup. So without Unaligned, he's very swingy with Ysalimiri. If you ARE playing an all-Fringe squad, Ysalimiri is probably fine, because being all-Fringe just kneecaps you so much since that means no Tempo control, your only movement breaker is Talon's CE, no mass-killing pieces, and few good ways to increase Attack and/or Damage.

So I don't think it's broken, but it still might not be something we want to do. I'm very wary about it. More than just hurting ABM, he would somewhat nerf a lot of Force-focused squads. Obviously this is already a possibility in Imperials, but do we want it to be available to EVERY faction?

My thoughts are that I'm actually okay with it, but I also totally understand the argument against it.


Fringe based squads will more than likely be based around Talon and Nimbus guys. I am totally fine with Ysalimiri being in the game. Force based squads still probably have enough tricks to deal with a all fringe squad.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:19 am
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My concerns are moreso about Talon NOT being in an all-Fringe squad. Do we really want to give Ysalimiri to Rebels, Republic, NR, etc.?


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:24 am
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In the playtesting thread, there was the suggestion to make the Ysilimari also conditional to all fringe squads. That could be an interesting idea. I think that Talon will be best in an all fringe squad (either Echanis or Black Sun) but I could see him being pretty good in a mando squad or really any squad that is heavy shooter based.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:35 am
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I don't have a huge problem with it.

First it is 38 points which is quite alot for what you get out of a Fringe squad.

You also have to remember the Ysalimiri not only effects your opponents force user but your as well.

Maybe one option to make the cost even more prohibitive is lower his attack to 8. This sort of helps address the problem by making it more apparent that you are paying for disrubtion, yislamiri and a CE that may or may not be useable.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:04 pm
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Thanks for opening this discussion up for others' input; I think that's probably a wise idea because this is a far-ranging decision.

Personally, I think that Talon should only have Ysalamiri when he's in pure-Fringe squads. [Maybe his flavor text would mention that he found his Ysalamiri creatues on the planet Myrkr?]

Right now Imperials are the only ones with an "F-U Bubble" (lol, I heard that name somewhere) against force-users, and I think that's plenty. Making counters to Bastilla and to tank-pieces is a good thing, when it's kept in balance. Indeed, that's the dance of design: making an impact on the game without going overboard. IMHO, giving Ysalamiri to every facton is overboard.

It's going to be far too hard to test the impact of Ysalamiri in every faction.
--I think Mandos will be trouble with it...Cloaked Twin shooters with Disruptive and force immunity seems a bit strong; there's no need for Mandalore the Vindicated in that squad anymore. Kelborn, Talon, Scouts, Captain, Saboteur would be the squad base that I'd probably start from.
--Rebels with Han-Cannon could be a major problem (HanSmuggler, Talon, Leia, Dodonna, etc).
--Even Naboo Troopers shooting from within Ysalamiri is an option...and a pretty broken option, at that.

I'm also afraid of "Mouse-Droid Syndrome"...having one piece that forever afterward restricts design options and limits the meta. Faction-wide Ysalamiri would do that, I think.

Talon will already be a very influential piece, because every decent new Fringe shooter will need to be designed around his movement-CE and the Ysalamiri/Unaligned SAs.


Anyway, those are my thoughts right now. If any of you would like to dialogue about them I'm most open to it.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:31 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
Thanks for opening this discussion up for others' input; I think that's probably a wise idea because this is a far-ranging decision.

Personally, I think that Talon should only have Ysalamiri when he's in pure-Fringe squads. [Maybe his flavor text would mention that he found his Ysalamiri creatues on the planet Myrkr?]

Right now Imperials are the only ones with an "F-U Bubble" (lol, I heard that name somewhere) against force-users, and I think that's plenty. Making counters to Bastilla and to tank-pieces is a good thing, when it's kept in balance. Indeed, that's the dance of design: making an impact on the game without going overboard. IMHO, giving Ysalamiri to every facton is overboard.

It's going to be far too hard to test the impact of Ysalamiri in every faction.
--I think Mandos will be trouble with it...Cloaked Twin shooters with Disruptive and force immunity seems a bit strong; there's no need for Mandalore the Vindicated in that squad anymore. Kelborn, Talon, Scouts, Captain, Saboteur would be the squad base that I'd probably start from.
--Rebels with Han-Cannon could be a major problem (HanSmuggler, Talon, Leia, Dodonna, etc).
--Even Naboo Troopers shooting from within Ysalamiri is an option...and a pretty broken option, at that.

I'm also afraid of "Mouse-Droid Syndrome"...having one piece that forever afterward restricts design options and limits the meta. Faction-wide Ysalamiri would do that, I think.

Talon will already be a very influential piece, because every decent new Fringe shooter will need to be designed around his movement-CE and the Ysalamiri/Unaligned SAs.


Anyway, those are my thoughts right now. If any of you would like to dialogue about them I'm most open to it.


You would pay 38 points or 19% of your squad on a 40 damage shooter (only if he hits both shots) just to get Disruptive and Ysalamiri? I don't think he is nearly worth that much. Those squads you mentioned, outside of naboo, really could use the help. Who is going to play him outside of an all fringe squad? At his points he costs WAY too much just to use for ysalamiri and disruptive.

For a fringe Disruptor I would go HK-47 every time. The only time I wouldn't is in Rebels. In rebels though you can run 4 disruptive pieces for the same price as Talon so that isn't really worth it. HK-47 gives mouse droids a defense boost, can ignore characters when he shoots, and puts out 30 damage a shot on most everything. I really don't think Ysalamiri is worth it for that many points. That being said we can easily just make a new SA so it will be a non-issue.

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38 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
20 Dam

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Rival (Imperials)
Disruptive
Mobile Attack
My pets from Myrkyr (If this character is in a squad that contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, this character possesses Ysalimiri.)
Unaligned (If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:48 pm
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We need Lou to weigh in on this.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:47 pm
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I think Ysalimari AND Disruptive may be a bit much. Ysalimari at this point range is a nice option for a few squads, and will be competing with HK. As it is, to make him fit into the few squads that can benefit from Ysalimari (mainly Mandos, afew Republic and Rebel squads, mainly the generic shooters), it is a big cost, as he won't be at his most effective. Which is fine. My only thought is to downgrade Disruptive, since Ysalimari is pretty big enough in other factions.

The Ysalimari isn't what makes him a piece to design around. It's the free damage boost to Fringe. Seriously, granting of damage boosts via SA or FP has proven to be very difficult to manage in the past. Let alone issues that people don't think of normally, like the Mice.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:36 pm
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For 38pts I do not have a problem with him giving fringe ysalamiri but if he were able to give ysalamiri to other factions I think he would have to cost more. I dont mind any faction having another option for disruptive for the cost. I would like to see how much +4 +10 helps an all fringe squad before we move on though.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:34 am
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At 38 the +4 +10 helps, but i don't see it breaking anything at this point in time. It will be one of those things that people need to be kept in mind for further set design.

If he were to cost more then 38 i feel the +4 +10 becomes something that will seldom be used. If we were to raise the cost I could see something like never tell me the odds being added. That might be a bit much. But maybe in creasing the number of fringe followers in the CE to 2 might be more along the lines where it needs to be.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 9:03 am
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Alright, looking at Matt's playtest: How much better is that squad than if you played Bastila instead of Talon? You get the minor movement breaker, +4 Attack, and Ysalimiri, but Bastila saves you 5 points and the Disruptive effect is boardwide. Against a squad like Caedus/Malgus Ysalimiri would be better, but against a Rebel squad, ABM would be much more useful. You could also drop the Dug from that squad easily enough, then also drop Talon and take Mas, Mitthrawn, and Ozzel and you get a better movement breaker, tempo control, and will practically always get the +4/+10 from Opportunist anyway, plus 7 points leftover. You could then drop the R7 for Pellaeon and the Gran for an Ugnaught and now you still have Ysalimiri. So with some re-tooling you basically just lose Disruptive and Super Steath but gain a much better movement breaker and tempo control, and Alexi doesn't have to stay within 6 to use the CE.

I don't want to discount the playtest, but as before I just see better tools in squads that can break the all-Fringe requirement. Yes, Ysalimiri with shooters will wreck a Caedus/Malgus squad, but it's hard for me to not see that as an inherent weakness of Caedus/Malgus (which is a very overrated squad anyway) as opposed to an overpowering advantage that Talon gives.

I do think that Ysalimiri is just too much in general, and believe that that is the kicker that makes Talon better. I think it should be taken off outright.

I see the arguments for his strength, but maybe I'm just too good at rationalizing all of it. I'll do my best to get in some playing with him today to see how it goes. I think he still definitely needs another test or two against a variety of squads.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:20 pm
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OK lets take a look at some numbers that we can compare things too.

Only other piece in the game with Yslamiri is Old Thrawn at 37 points.

Old Thrawn 37 New Talon 38
80 80
18 17
+12 +11
10 20

Pretty even so far

Thrawn
Swap
+3+3
Master Tactitican

Talon
Disruptive
Unaligned +4+10
Fringe movement after INT

I still think we are pretty even. Each ability is powerful in it's own way. However then second that Talon goes out of a all fringe squad he loses on of his three tricks. Then you are paying alot to get Disruptive and Ysalimiri.

Look at some of the other pieces that are out there that have disruptive.
Both Crix pieces are better for the rebels then adding Talon.
NR R2c3p0 combo are really good at 22 points
HK47
Han GH

All are good pieces for the cost because they do something else besides disruptive. Talon would be Ysalimiri.
38 points for a small movement breaker, Disruptive and Ysalimiri when you are in anything but Fringe. Personally I think it is a bunch of points to invest in one piece that has a range of 6 on it's tricks. Plus in non-fringe squads you have the possability of not ever using his CE. Can't use it on R7s or mice. That leaves ugies as the standard fringe piece.

If you make this piece so it is only works with Fringe, I think we are wasting the time. It will see little to no play because the number of good fringe only squads are very very few and far between. If it does go to only fringe for Ysalimiri then the cost should go down because he would be worthless in any other squad.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:31 pm
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Ok, then I think we need to consider what we actually want to do with this piece. Right now his #1 use absolutely is making Fringe-pure squads. If we take him as is and then try to cost him so that he is also good in non-Fringe-pure squads, I think those Fringe-pure squads (however few they may be) will be too good.

We need to either remove Unaligned altogether and focus him as a mid-cost denial piece, or we need to keep Unaligned and reevaluate him as a very, very powerful commander in Fringe-only squads. Personally I would much rather do the latter (make him very strong in Fringe-only squads but weak otherwise), because I think promoting Fringe-only squads is a really cool thing to do.

We definitely aren't on the same page here, though. Weeks or Lou are going to need to give some input here as well, of course.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 5:41 pm
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Okay, so at this point nothing needs to get added to any pieces and we should be making cuts if anything. I've been thinking about fringe Ysalamiri and Disruptive and a flat bonus to attack and damage. Those three things are by far some of the best abilities in the entire game. I think at his current price point he's worth it for a fringe only squad. That squad could have some nice heavy hitters although I'm not sure what pieces would work best.

Cad Bane
Talon
Dash
Lobot
X3 Klatoonian Assassins
R7
X3 uggies

That could be a decent team right there. A pile of good shooters with Lobot to choose the right fit. You might even be able to just drop everything except talon and cad and toss in either brutes or Ewoks and run a swarm. I think talon squads can be good, very good even. I don't think.

I think we should pick either Disruptive or Ysalamiri (aka the best SA in the game) and only keep one. I'd prefer he kept Ysalamiri. It fits his flavor and fringe already has access to Disruptive in HK and Nym (lol). With only having Ysalamiri I feel his cost can go down to 33. If you want Ysalamiri you can grab Talon for the cost of a mid range attacker. It's a cost of 5 less but it makes him cost double (+1) of pelleaons cost. So imperials still get their Ysalamiri for cheap, while everyone else pays for theirs at a primium.

So he'd look like this.

Drop Disruptive
Drop cost by 5

If you want Ysalamiri it costs you 33 points. If you want a good fringe only squad Talon will better serve you.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 6:03 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
If it does go to only fringe for Ysalimiri then the cost should go down because he would be worthless in any other squad.


I think this is something we can't do. You're right that he would be really bad in any other squad, but he has to be costed appropriately for his most abusive squad. Otherwise he will be broken in at least one squad, and one squad is all it takes.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 11:37 pm
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I am fine with dropping disruptive.

What if we add tactician +4 and keep the cost as it was?

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:56 am
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We HAVE to decide on this soon

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:14 am
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Weeks wrote:
Talon Karrde, Information Broker
Fringe

36 Points

80 HP
17 Def
11 Att
20 Dam

Unique
Disruptive
Mobile Attack
My Pets from Myrkr (If this character is in a squad that contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, this character gains Ysalimiri (Characters within 6 squares cannot spend Force points. This character and characters within 6 squares gain Force Immunity.).)

CE: Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

If your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies gain +4 attack and +10 Damage

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Went with David's idea for "My Pets from Myrkr", dropped the cost to 36, and made Unaligned a CE. Now he doesn't stack with Xizor or Atris, but still makes things like Alto + Nimbus Commandos strong. This also allowed Rival for Imperials to be dropped, because the main purpose that was on there was to avoid giving them even MORE Ysalimiri. As it is, the only reason to play him in Imperials (or any non-Fringe faction for that matter) would be for Disruptive, a middling CE, an a mediocre shooter; not worth anything near 38 points. However, if you DO play an all-Fringe squad, it becomes awesome; there might even be a top tier option in there, although that would be tough.

I'm fine with him being all about the all-Fringe squads. He'll get little if any play outside of those, but I personally think that we should take this opportunity to make that work. It's a really neat addition to the game. An all-Fringe squad is unthinkable now, you could ALWAYS benefit from Dodonna or R2, AM or something like that if nothing else.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:31 pm
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I think dropping unaligned to the CE is very big mistake.

I am fine with moving yslamirir to fringe only

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:36 pm
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Why is it that you think Unaligned shouldn't be a CE? It was the last change I thought of and I'm not totally sold on it, so I'm open to change it back if you have a good reason.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:26 pm
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Here is what I am thinking. If you truly want to make a fringe squad that is competitive, I really think unaligned needs to be a SA so it DOES stack with Atris or Xizor or even Jolee.

I don't think it would be too over powering considering the CEs of the above could be hit with disruptive, Distraction, of Battle meditation.

Also adding in the 36 to 38 points is a pretty heavy price when working him in to Fringe squad that are currently floating around.

However I do think we just might as well just be saying this, Rival-can only be in all fringe squads. This piece is so one sided that I would be very surprised if it would be used in any non fringe quad.

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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:38 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
However I do think we just might as well just be saying this, Rival-can only be in all fringe squads. This piece is so one sided that I would be very surprised if it would be used in any non fringe quad.


This is something we really need to get on the same page about. I think he SHOULD be basically a Fringe-exclusive character. Rival for other factions is unnecessary, since he's incredibly inefficient in anything but an all-Fringe squad. Honestly, I thought that's what we've been doing all along.

If we want to make him worthwhile in something other than an all-Fringe squad, I think he should lose Unaligned. He's too hard to balance, because he needs to be SO GOOD to encourage people to actually play an all-Fringe squad, so if he's good enough for that but also good enough to be played without his all-Fringe bonuses, I think he'll be too good in an all-Fringe squad.

Weeks and Lou need to chime in on how they see this guy; should he be all about making Fringe-only squads good, or should he be usable in many factions?


Changing Unaligned to a CE was mostly based on the most recent playtest posted for this guy, written by spryguy and supported by Trevor. I tend to agree with you to be honest (I think the squad he played has a bunch of counters), but I'm not comfortable ignoring their suggestions at this stage of the game.


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:26 pm
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If we change it back to a SA he should cost a little more but he may cost to much how he is now.

SA 42ish
CA 32ish


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Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:14 am
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:49 am
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Make it a CE. It lets him be disrupted by actual disruptive and not Bastilla because of Ysalamiri. It makes echani's not work as well with him but they are already good in Imperials so who cares.

I think he should be......well my phone is being a dick, the last stat block Daniel posted should be the one to use. Ysalamiri only in fringe, disruptive and a fringe movement breaker everywhere else. He's too expensive to use just for his tech anywhere else but fringe only, and that's just fine. We are trying something new, I think it will work.

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:41 pm
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32 points then and put unaligned as a CE then?

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:32 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
32 points then and put unaligned as a CE then?


Yes.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:41 pm
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Weeks wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:
32 points then and put unaligned as a CE then?


Yes.


Living or everything? As an SA it was also boosting Droids and Savages (perhaps wasn't supposed to).


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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:23 pm
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Let's do just non-Savage Living.


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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:28 pm
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thanks


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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:09 pm
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prelim QC:
please check if anything is missing, I grabbed the last stats posted.

Quote:
46. Talon Karrde, Information Broker
cost 32

80 HP
17 DEF
+11 ATK
20 DAM

Unique

Disruptive [Suppresses enemy commander effects within 6 squares]

Mobile Attack [Can move both before and after attacking]

My Pets from Myrkr [While your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, this character has Ysalamiri (Characters within 6 squares cannot spend Force points. This character and characters within 6 squares gain Force Immunity.)]

CE:
While your squad contains only Fringe characters or characters with Independent Outfit, allies get +4 Attack and +10 Damage.

Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its speed before any other character activates.

"I think it's occasionally good for us to remember that being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."


Last edited by swinefeld on Thu May 23, 2013 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:17 am
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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:07 pm
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I guess he's good to go. Card looks fine to me.


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Sithborg Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:08 am
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Now that it is a CE, you can drop the part about Independent Outfit from the CE if you want.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:16 am
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Lol, right you are, thanks

Quote:
While your squad contains only Fringe characters, allies get +4 Attack and +10 Damage.

Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Fringe follower can immediately move up to its speed before any other character activates.


Whatever you want Les, it's fine as is and may be more obvious for newer players, and scattered people like me :D


Last edited by swinefeld on Thu May 23, 2013 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 1:16 am
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Les, even if you don't edit the CE,
I was just switching stuff around on him on Bloo and caught this:

Ysalamiri (I had misspelled it in the QC :oops: , now edited)


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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:04 am
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Fixed

Image

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:08 am
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left a stray t in the 1st part of CE

edit:
just a thought, but it's unfortunate how much FT has had to be dropped from the set. Perhaps this:

Unique. Mobile Attack

move everything up, and shorten FT to this:

"Being a smuggler doesn't necessarily require one to be a barbarian, too."

totally your call of course


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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:16 am
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Fixed

Image

Sorry not making changes just to add flavor text.

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swinefeld Offline
Post subject: Re: Talon Karrde, Information Broker*PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:17 am
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+1