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25. Galen Marek *
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: 25. Galen Marek *PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:19 pm
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cost 35
HP 110
Def 18
Att 12
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double attack
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
Force Shatter 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
ok, so i don't think this is where this guy will end up at but there are 2 force powers that i want to see in the game and i figured this guy tends to personify these abilities.
In the game Malek pulls and pushed people all over the shop. I would lawys be dragging stormies to me and cutting them, so that what force pull has become. I made it force 2 and added the attack. force pull 1 could be without the attack, higher bonuses could be longer distances etc.
You're always smashing doors in the force unleashed and i think its about time jedi started busting them open. Again i've left the option open and force shatter 2 is from 6, but it could easily be force one and require adjacency.
Qui gonn was shredding a door in TPM so door shatter 1 could be replace turn and adjacent. Anyway, Malek was always just pushing doors open at a distance so i've kept that part up and made it cost 2 force.
i've considered levitation on this fig, i've considered lightning, stun, and grip but i kind of settled on what i tended to do most which was repulse everyone, push open doors and slice people up.
Last edited by billiv15 on Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Corrected the name in the title
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:49 pm
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I'm good with all of the ideas. But I think force pull should "replace attacks".
Perhaps give him twin, since he used a double saber anyway, and then he can pull someone for one +4/10 and then a twin at regular attack. Now if your intention was to allow the guy to get MotF2 from a force spirit, and then pull/repulse, I'm fine with it how it is.
force shatter should read "on this character's turn" if that's how you intend it to work.
And finally, don't think the cost is nearly high enough :)
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:52 pm
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yeah, costing is never one of my strong points.
Anyway, all his Force powers (except block) are supposed to be replace attacks :oops: , or at least intended to be. I don't consider him an amazing lightsaber fighter, more a force battery. However, his force pull will be great at pinning figs wthat are 12 away. With Reiken he'll be able to step out, pull a mouse/uggie or whatever to him, slice it and step back into cover.
With them all replaceing attacks that should bring his cost down significantly, particulally with his average stats.
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dvader831 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:02 pm
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Wouldn't having his abilities replace attacks VS. replace turn make him cost more, since his powers are less restrictive and Mobile comes in to play?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:10 pm
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dvader831 wrote:
Wouldn't having his abilities replace attacks VS. replace turn make him cost more, since his powers are less restrictive and Mobile comes in to play?
Before he changed it to Replace Attacks, it wasn't specified, so it looked like it was just "on this character's turn". Which would mean you get to Pull, do an attack at +4/+10, and then Double Attack for another 40 damage. So compared to that, it keeps the cost down.
I like how Pull works, and think this is a good concept for the character. I would like to see him be a bit stronger, though; maybe Force Renewal 2? Maybe a little better base stats, too.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:28 pm
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i'm fine with him being stronger, just threw this down to get the ideas out there> however, his stats are pretty close to the 1st two renditions of him.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:54 pm
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The force additions are excellent. I think the key is deciding do we want a Power 8-10 or a power 5-6 (and by that I mean point cost). Are do we want him as a 50-80pt mini, a 100pt mini or a 30-40ish mid level. I can go with any of the three, and I think the base force powers will still apply.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:32 am
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ok, so i think what we are asking here is twin or not to twin.
Give him Twin and he's like 50+ purely because of how it stacks with Pull.
its 50 on the pull and 40 on the break.
With rebels you get another 50 thorugh leia
Imperials are looking at 70 with opportunist on a pull and 60 on the break.
it makes him so much stronger. I don't mind it but he becomes a more beefy figure
Quote:
cost 52
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
Force Shatter 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
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dvader831 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:45 am
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I for one am very happy to see Force Pull make its arrival to the game. Are we putting this on any other characters in the set or just currently making it unique to Galen? I just searched where I asked questions about it for VSet 2 and had these questions brought up, just in case.
Quote:
1. Will it be an Unleashed Power?
2. Do we want it on more than one character?
3. Do we want it in more than one faction?
4. Would having it on a Fringe Unique have bad repercussions in any faction?
5. How do we handle pits, rough terrain, etc?
6. Do we say closest space available to the character doing the Pull?
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:56 am
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Quote:
1. Will it be an Unleashed Power?
does that mean it costs more than 3? if so then not yet
Quote:
2. Do we want it on more than one character?
possibly, but i'm not sure who its applicable to get it so far
Quote:
3. Do we want it in more than one faction?
it'll be in two now
Quote:
4. Would having it on a Fringe Unique have bad repercussions in any faction?
i doubt it, depends on teh fig. 4 points ughnaughts with force pull would be kind of stupid.
Quote:
5. How do we handle pits, rough terrain, etc?
the enemy 'appears' next to you, there are no AoO's, terrain is moot, distance is only counted to the target and the landing spot must be a legal space. you won't be able to pull them into a pit. With this fig you could pull them, win init and repulse them into a pit but thats about it.
Quote:
6. Do we say closest space available to the character doing the Pull?
no, for simplicity and an added strategic bonus its any square adjacent so most people will end up pulling the fig behind them.
full wording
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target larger or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. This movement ignores terrain and characters and the final spot must be a legal spuare. If there is no legal space adjacent then the enemy is placed in the next closest legal space. If the enemy is adjacent make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:04 am
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I think one of the OR uniques might get Force Pull.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:10 am
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that sounds like a good idea. I like the idea of pulling someone into an ambush.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:13 am
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I was thinking would be hilarious to pull someone into Nomi riding Thon, who then charges you and Severs your force :)
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:35 am
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just tripping the light fantastic
fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
Force Shatter 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:54 am
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Quote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
Force Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:54 pm
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What faction is this guy?
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:58 pm
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 9:59 am
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While working on Tenel Ka, I was reminded of something I'd like to see on Galen. He used "Telekinetic Combat" against Maris. He would be a perfect figure to consider using it again (see Darth Traya).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:52 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
While working on Tenel Ka, I was reminded of something I'd like to see on Galen. He used "Telekinetic Combat" against Maris. He would be a perfect figure to consider using it again (see Darth Traya).
well it would be either that or Force Pull. Having them both is kind of redundant, at least with pull being a 6 squares ability.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:46 pm
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yes you are mostly right. But I wanted the idea in here in case pull doesn't work, works to well, needs to be tweaked, etc.
For example, making pull "replaces turn" then moving 6 and hitting 6 away with a LS might be a good idea for him. The only real difference is that TC does not require the use of force. It would be like a free LS Throw basically.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:35 pm
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This would be what I consider the viable TC version. In a crowd, move 6 and repulse 4 - nasty. Against one target, lightning for the possible outright kill, sit still and pull someone towards you for twin for 50, or move 6 hit someone 6 away with twin for 40. With this, he definitely doesn't need double attack. You are welcome to take or leave it, but I think the cost still is pretty close with this version. Obviously as a Rebel he gains evade, and as an Imperial opportunist and swap. I think that's a fair trade for each faction to power him up further. Also, TC/Mobile could be really pretty cool.
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Telekinetic Combat (This character may attack targets within 6 squares. Attacks against non-adjacent targets count as non-melee attacks and ignore damage reduction.)
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber Block
Force repulse 5 - Force 4, replaces attacks: 40 damage to all characters within 4 squares; push back Huge or smaller characters to 5 squares from this character. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16.
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on the enemy at +4 attack +10 dmg.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:00 pm
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i don't particulally want this fig to have TKC.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:41 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
i don't particulally want this fig to have TKC.
That's fine with me.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:19 am
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sorry i put this down without really explaining as i was rushing away.
The main reason in a fluff sense is that i've always pictured this dude as being totally reliant on the force, kind of like Joruus. When he is spent in the game you can't really do much other than hack and slash. The TKC ability is an abstraction, at least in my mind, of exceptional force users that are always able to utilize the force for telekenisis. their force control is such that its always possible to do. Darth traya and Vandar were both masters and expemlify the types of characters that i'd see them on.
Marek always drained himself when he tried to use force.
In a mechanics sense i'd like force pull 2 to be a replaces attacks power so that its more useful for Nomi. I guess we can fiddle with the ability so that she does get a replaces attacks power.
Here is a suggested scaling if we want Marek to be replaces turn.
Force pull 2 - replaces attacks - range 6 - target enemy is placed adjacent to this character, this character makes and immedeate attack on that character
Force Pull 3 - replaces turn - range 6 - target enemy is placed adjacent to this character, this charater makes an immedeate attack at +10 dmg.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:37 am
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Made his pull the Replaces Turn pull 3. Renamed Force Shatter "Door Shatter".
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:08 pm
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Another guy with no room for FT, just adding the dot as a reminder...
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:55 am
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Force Fury - love it! :)
As for Force Pull, he moves a character toward him and then makes 2 attacks on it for a total of 50 damage. Hmm. Less excited about that.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:48 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
As for Force Pull, he moves a character toward him and then makes 2 attacks on it for a total of 50 damage. Hmm. Less excited about that.
What is it about the ability that dampens your excitement?
Is it really so very different from Master Thon moving twelve/fourteen next to you and doing 60-80? Can Bane shooting you for 120? Kreia hitting you for 90 from 6 spaces away? Or being force pushed/repulsed for 50 dmg in to a pit? Or being hit with lightning for 60 dmg? At least they are attacks rather than an auto dmg. They can be blocked, parried, riposted, djemso'd. Its susceptible to death shots and self destruct.
The main difference is that the enemy figure moves towards you. But without that the ability really wouldn't be very special.
Its on a 67 point figure also, so its not like its going to be accompanied by that much else.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:55 pm
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I just find it to be an unfair ability. Basically, end of round I can position all my pieces and then on the next round Force Pull your guy into mine, and beat the snot out of him before you have a chance to respond. Sure, it's on a high-cost piece right now, but this is the starting point. Much like Evade with the Ishi Tib Scout, once it's out there, other pieces can get it and then it becomes a numbers game of balancing the cost of the power/ability against the overall game. Jason K makes a similar argument about the danger of Jedi Reflexes (an opinion which I have come to agree with the more I have thought about it).
I tinkered with Force Pull pre-DotF, and I hate the idea of the ability. It just feels wrong (and by wrong I mean not in the spirit of the game).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:26 pm
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i'm sorry, but i'm not understanding the whole "spirit of the game" part of your argument.
Why is this different from waiting until the end of the round, swapping in a piece, doing 120 dmg and then swapping him away? Whay you say isn't "in the spirit of the game" is just a variation of tactics that has happened ever since R2 astromech was introduced. Manuvering your pieces to put the opponent in a disadvantage by inflicting damage with no fear of retern fire.
Why can't the person facing Force Pull move their pieces in such a way to not allow the pull?
Particulally now that its replaces turn.
I havn't seen any report so far that leads me to believe that there is some outrageous advantage with the ability.
I mean the puller has to get within 6 of the target. The majority of the time that means that he will be within 6 of other enemies leaving the possibility of retern damage.
As for your Jedi Reflexes comment, i'm not sure what to make of that seeing as you introduced the ability. I'm sorry that jason thinks that its gonna ruin part of the game but, to be quite frank, having a piece that, in the first round, can destroy the chances of 95% of squads competing has done far more harm to the game than Jedi reflexes will. Furthermore, pull aids in relaxing the pressure of JR as it one method of getting a figure adjacent to you without taking AoOs.
I do have some misgivings about JR, particulally when its on a piece with twin.
Quote:
Much like Evade with the Ishi Tib Scout, once it's out there, other pieces can get it and then it becomes a numbers game of balancing the cost of the power/ability against the overall game
design is always a numbers game. Nothing quoted above is anything new and nor are the issues that Force pull introduces.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:40 pm
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You could also just spend 4 more points, play lord vader and do 160 then 120 at init. That's just about twice what Galen does. Vader does all that on the move while Galen has tonstand still for the 120 and the pull. That's only 4 points. Dropping an uggie to just play that isn't that bad a call.
Honestly I'd almost say Galen is overcosted as he is now. For that cost he should be able to wreck squads akin to how vader can. He doesn't have enough force to do that unless you hold him back for 2-3 rounds first. Doing that will almost certainly give you a huge disadvantage. And that's even assuming you outactivate.
Pull is a strong ability but I don't see how 50-70 damag standing still (even when you get to move enemy pieces) is any worse then just doing 120-160 and killing them outright.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:03 pm
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The difference is that you are looking at this from the standpoint of what one other figure can do for a relative cost (ie swap in, swap out, strafe, etc.)
But that is not how Force Pull will be played. Force Pull will allow your entire squad to set up around the puller and then overpower it. My concern is not about Galen Marek specifically (yet that seems to be the crux of your arguments), it is about the ability itself.
@ Deri: Yes it is replaces turn, but big deal - all that means is the guy can't move on his own and he still gets to make a swing + Twin attack at a damage bonus to boot. So you just set it up at end of round and then do it on the next. Maybe it's not AS big of a deal with this figure but I guarantee you it will be at some point down the road. The same was true of Evade and Strafe Attack and several other abilities that expanded and evolved over the life of the game.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:38 pm
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I see what you are saying Dennis. The 2 pieces in question are 67 and 58 points. Nomi is in old republic so unless she is riding thon it'll be hard for her to pull it off (no pun intended). Galen at 67 is also expensive to do that with. What else do you put in the squad with him? Dash and jagged? I guess that could work but then you have 145 points tied up to donthat with. And you haven't even added lobot or ozzel or the 7 points you'd have left to do that with. So that's 9 acts max possible 15 with ozzel. That ain't outacting much if anything.
If costed properly and we keep our eye on it I see no reason why it can't work. Evade became a problem when a low cost commanders starting handing it out like hotcakes. It being a force power that costs 3 force to do AND you give up your move to do just doesnt strike me as OP.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:16 am
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We are also precluding the possibility of creating a swap CE in the OR faction with the introduction of this ability.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:44 pm
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I know this shouldn't go here but no better place to put it.
fingersandteeth wrote:
I'm sorry that jason thinks that its gonna ruin part of the game but, to be quite frank, having a piece that, in the first round, can destroy the chances of 95% of squads competing has done far more harm to the game than Jedi reflexes will.
.
Just for the record. I agree that certain Lancer builds can be very problematic for some squads. If JR was only against flight (or some new similar ability) I would be all for it (basically anti-lancer specific).
I don't think an ability that says "I am immune to being based by anything that has 20 or less HP and I also do at least 20 to anything else that walks up to base me" is a good ability to have on very many characters.
It seems like an over-reaction to a piece (lancer) that I think exactly 3 people ran at last year's gencon and has made 1 Top 8 in Gencon history (and got blown out in its top 8 performance). Gencon this year will tell us where our problem squads lie (and hopefully there will be some wiggle room in V-set 3 to make some adjustments if some seem necessary to help balance the meta).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:57 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
I know this shouldn't go here but no better place to put it.
fingersandteeth wrote:
I'm sorry that jason thinks that its gonna ruin part of the game but, to be quite frank, having a piece that, in the first round, can destroy the chances of 95% of squads competing has done far more harm to the game than Jedi reflexes will.
.
Just for the record. I agree that certain Lancer builds can be very problematic for some squads. If JR was only against flight (or some new similar ability) I would be all for it (basically anti-lancer specific).
I don't think an ability that says "I am immune to being based by anything that has 20 or less HP and I also do at least 20 to anything else that walks up to base me" is a good ability to have on very many characters.
Quote:
It seems like an over-reaction to a piece (lancer) that I think exactly 3 people ran at last year's gencon and has made 1 Top 8 in Gencon history (and got blown out in its top 8 performance). Gencon this year will tell us where our problem squads lie (and hopefully there will be some wiggle room in V-set 3 to make some adjustments if some seem necessary to help balance the meta).
I don't think we can base the level of a squad or a figure on how it did in an old meta. I agree that this year's GenCon will bare out how much of a problem it is for the game.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:24 pm
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We should probably have separate threads for Jedi reflexes and force pull.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:51 pm
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i'll repeat, nothing i have heard or read from anyone has made me think that Force pull is anything other than another movement breaker that will just diversify the game further.
As far as i can tell the only detractions from it are personal opinions which have not really been explained well enough to deter it appearing in this set.
Quote:
I don't think an ability that says "I am immune to being based by anything that has 20 or less HP and I also do at least 20 to anything else that walks up to base me" is a good ability to have on very many characters.
It seems like an over-reaction to a piece (lancer) that I think exactly 3 people ran at last year's gencon and has made 1 Top 8 in Gencon history (and got blown out in its top 8 performance). Gencon this year will tell us where our problem squads lie (and hopefully there will be some wiggle room in V-set 3 to make some adjustments if some seem necessary to help balance the meta).
When it was concieved i don't think there was much of an issue with the lancer as seldom did people run it. Actually it was pretty much you and Tim keeping the faith with it that has proven its effectiveness. However, if you think that way about jedi reflexes, where was the outcry for mines on the chameleon droid?
You can't even shoot that thing in broad daylight unless your adjacent in which case you risk taking 20dmg. At least with Jedi reflexes you can BGD the dmg, or block it, or get levitated next to it, or leap into the figure.
I hear what you are saying though and it shouldn't be thrown around like cotton candy. However, having a piece that can hit the lancer as it goes past really does very little to perterb its effectiveness. The lancer just avoids it and kills everything else. Then the IG-sideous and a bazzillion mice is enough to take out any figure.
Believe me, i faced that figure more than any other squad by a factor of 10 recently and i've tried every counter imaginable. I win because the opponent makes a mistake, not through my great play.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:31 pm
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For Force Fury, how about we change that to either against characters without a Force rating or non-unique characters. I like the flavor of it, but it's not like you could run up to Kazdan Paratus and just incinerate him. That's something you could just do on Stormies and such. Alternatively make it a save for the character taking the damage and make it happen on a natural 1, so it can be re-rolled with FP and CEs.
In addition we might want to either bump his cost up a bit more, or drop Lightsaber Block and just make him pure offense.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:44 pm
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This guy is way overpowered. His stat block, particularly with Affinity for Empire, just makes him an auto-include in virtually every Rebel/Imperial build.
In testing him on the Rebels, he hid behind the front-runners (who had Evade, just as he did), until he was close enough to jump out in front of them and do a Repulse burst for massive damage. With the availability of Force batteries in both factions he can pair with, he is just insane.
In an Empire squad, he is THE replacement for Lord Vader, with better baseline stats overall, complete immunity to attack via swapping, and a 24-square move for perfect positioning to initiate a 40-damage explosion on the first round is just over the top. Basically, all you need to win is him, Jarael, Thrawn, and Mas Amedda.
On the off chance you are facing down a Force Immunity squad, you start off with a base swap and Double/Twin your way through the biggest target at whopping +19 attack for 120 damage, followed by a first round swing at +15 for 80 more. Even Lord Vader doesn't have it that good at 4 pts. higher.
So the suggestion here is to either drastically increase the cost (which honestly, it's my opinion that no cost amount can justify the versatility of this stat card), or power him down a bit. I'm going to break protocol here and actually propose a change.
Galen Marek
cost 73
HP 130
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - When this character damages another character with a Force power, roll 1d20. On a natural 20, the character is defeated.
Force 1. Force renewal 1
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force repulse 3 - (replaces turn; 30 dmg to all characters within 3 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 3 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Force lightning 2
Lightsaber block
You can't do Repulse on round 1 this way without help from a Force Battery, and he doesn't need to be able to make 8 back-to-back attacks over the course of two rounds. Force Pull and Opportunist combo nicely enough on their own without giving even more aid.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:36 pm
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The problem there dude is you made him the exact opposite and made him way underpowered. For 73 all I get is twin? And I have to wait till round 3 to even do anything cool? Nah I'll pass.
Also consider lord vader is doing his attacks AFTER moving. And lv does 40 more points of damage whenever he goes.
I'd say run him a few more times. In the games I've played Galen can't carry the same load that vader can. He has to stand still to do anything outside of repulse and even then he needs to save up force to make it happen. With only 3 force and renewal 1 your probably looking at one good repulse per game, with the rest of the game using lightning and block till you can setup a double twin.
It's on your opponent to not put dudes bear each other when going against Galen. He doesn't have the power to take out a good t1 squad on his own like vader can. How does he beat solo charge? How does he beat lancer? Run up repulsing and hoping for the best doesn't cut it. It's more likely that Mara does 120 to him and han kills him or lancer picks off his swappers and locks doors.
Ive played the guy 4 times now and I'm 2-2 with him. At no point did I see him as OP. in fact he is much much harder to run then vader would be for just 4 points more. Try him out against some current t1 builds and see how he does.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:14 pm
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I'll do more testing of him. I do think he should be underpowered, but that was a typo. I meant to type 63.
EDIT: I would add that I thought Alvey made a good point about the current map list. Spreading figures out is very difficult to do on many of the maps we have right now. If it weren't, Lancer would not be so scary.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:05 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I'll do more testing of him. I do think he should be underpowered, but that was a typo. I meant to type 63.
EDIT: I would add that I thought Alvey made a good point about the current map list. Spreading figures out is very difficult to do on many of the maps we have right now. If it weren't, Lancer would not be so scary.
While that's true about maps to a point also consider Nathan beat solo charge and lancer twice while running a han sta squad in champs. If he can keep Daniel, tim, and Eric from getting explosions and strafes off on a ton of brutes I'd imagine other squads can get around galens explosion.
If anything Galen should be more force oriented. I'm cool with just twin on him but 63 points is still outrageous for 1 fp and renewal 1. Because all his powers cost 3-4 points. If he cost 40ish that be fine but in the 60s he better be doing more then only getting one good power per game or I don't think he will see play.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:47 am
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1 game at the top tables isn't enough to convince me that something in design is okay. While I agree with Jim McNaney's statement from months ago that "if a piece isn't broken at the top level of play, then it's not broken," I don't think it automatically means a figure isn't too powerful just because it was beaten at the top level. The same is true of map situations. We have to be thinking about more than just whether the very best players in the game can manage to work around a particular figure.
What's more, Galen Marek - with Repulse 4 - is an anti-swarm Lancer-style piece and the last thing the game needs is another one of those right now. IMO he also has Mouse Droid Syndrome, as every time a new figure for either Rebel or Imperial is made, he will have to be considered.
Maybe dropping Double from him and reducing his starting Force points and cost goes too far, but I cannot support the figure the way it is. It's just too strong. But I will playtest it some more, and see what the guys come up with for this week's game in terms of squads.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:16 pm
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Wasn't "Force Fury" a game mechanic added in FU2 (lol)? If so, I'd like to see this guy's name changed to Vader's Apprentice, Cloned. Yeah, I know, I'm a canonical pain in the ass today :D
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:29 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
cost 71
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a non-unique character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 3 - (replaces turn; 30 dmg to all characters within 3 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 3 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
Did a few small things; increased the cost to 71, changed Force Fury to effect just non-unique characters, and dropped starting Force to 2. Also dropped Repulse 4 for Repulse 3 (I can agree that he shouldn't be able to be a very strong single-target killer with Double/Twin as well as a good multi-target killer with the best Repulse). I think this is still a good version, and that Dennis' version is too big of a change, but he's been powered down some. I'd like to see more results with him before we make changes much bigger than this (or optimally get a chance to play him myself, if AT&T will get my blasted internet going in my new apartment so I can get on Vassal....)
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:39 pm
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I think Galen Marek is fine for a name. No reason for spoiling plot unnecessarily. :)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:43 pm
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Force Fury seems a little watered down to me. Maybe something like:
Force Fury (When this character damages an enemy with a Force power, the character takes double damage, save 11)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:28 pm
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Cost down to 61, removed double attack, changed repulse 4 to repulse 5 (replaces turn vs replaces attacks), force pull 3 down to force pull 2 (replaces attacks vs replaces turn).
cost 61
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 5 - (replaces attacks; 50 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 6 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:29 pm
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I like dennises force fury idea. Someone on bloomilk suggested a Galen with something similar. I liked it there and I like it here. Comes up much more often this way.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:51 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I think Galen Marek is fine for a name. No reason for spoiling plot unnecessarily. :)
That doesn't spoil the plot??? That is the plot.....
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:56 am
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I read the back of the box the other day and saw nothing about the apprentice in this game being a Clone.
On topic, I think 3 Force to start with is a bit much, and very rare in the history of stat design. How many times do you want this guy to Repulse in the game?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:24 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I read the back of the box the other day and saw nothing about the apprentice in this game being a Clone.
On topic, I think 3 Force to start with is a bit much, and very rare in the history of stat design. How many times do you want this guy to Repulse in the game?
I'd say no to the clone part. Obviously most of us already know that from the games. But why bother if it bugs someone.
As for force 3, it means first possible repulse is turn 2. But that also burns him to 0 force. If all he does is repulse, he can do it on turn 2, then turn 7. But I'm pretty certain the player is going to want to use the other force powers quite often. Repulse will never be used more than once, even with a force battery. With the replaces attacks repulse 4, I could see it. But not with a replaces turn. People are going to be using force pull and lightning for the chance at a fury much more often. And on occasion, they are going to have to use door shatter, whether they planned on it or not. That moves the second repulse to a minimum of turn 8. I just don't think it will happen, and even then, it means he isn't using some of his other best abilities, and the opponent was completely stupid (you know which rounds he has enough for repulse, so spread out...)
And as for flavor, I almost consider Galen a force 2 Force Renewal 2, MotF2 figure. But I don't think our game can sustain his full abilities (although he's a prime target for Rebel/Imperial Epic if we ever do a set 2 for that reason alone lol).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:25 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I read the back of the box the other day and saw nothing about the apprentice in this game being a Clone.
On topic, I think 3 Force to start with is a bit much, and very rare in the history of stat design. How many times do you want this guy to Repulse in the game?
As he is now he will probably get 1 repulse then use the rest of his force on pulls, lightnings, and blocks. 4 force is a big investment. With all of his stuff cost so much he won't have time to save force up that often.
Did his repulse get changed from 4 to something else?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:26 am
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I was also thinking about Force Battery options. With the Rebels, that means Yoda of Dagobah. With the Empire, that means one of two different Palpatines.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:29 am
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Repulse turn 1 with Palp, Palp drops to 1, Galen goes up to 4.
Repulse turn 2 with Galen, he drops to 0, Palp goes up to 4.
Repulse turn 3 with Palp, Palp drops to 2, Galen goes up to 2.
Repulse turn 4 with Palp, Palp drops to 0, Galen goes up to 3.
Turn 5, Palp goes up to 3, Galen goes up to 4.
Repulse turn 6, Palp goes down to 1, Galen goes up to 5.
Repulse turn 7 with Galen, he goes down to 1, Palp goes up to 4.
If the game is still going after that, you are probably going to lose.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:35 am
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billiv15 wrote:
Cost down to 61, removed double attack, changed repulse 4 to repulse 5 (replaces turn vs replaces attacks), force pull 3 down to force pull 2 (replaces attacks vs replaces turn).
cost 61
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 5 - (replaces attacks; 50 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 6 squares from this character)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
Some of these changes are messed up. Repulse 5 is Replace Turn, 50 damage, all within 5, and has a save 16 to activate. Pull 2 is replace attacks.
I'm not a fan of the double damage aspect of Dennis' version of Force Fury, but I like it effecting all force powers. And the more I think about it the more I think it really needs to be only for non-uniques. What about this:
Force Fury - when this character damages a non-unique character with a force power he may roll a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Now it works with the repulse, and hits any and all non-unique characters, even your own. It's also optional now, though, so you don't have to Fury if you don't want to so you don't kill too many of your own dudes.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:04 am
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Yea, I wrote this repair twice, after the first one didn't get posted due to the site hiccup, and then didn't fix everything. Let me try again lol.
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character damages a non-unique character with a force power he may roll a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force 5, replaces turn: 50 damage to all characters within 5 squares; push back Huge or smaller characters to 6 squares from this character. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16.
Force Pull 2 force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy
Door Shatter 1 force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed
Force lightning 2
Couple of notes. "May" means "has the ability to" it does not mean "can choose to or not to". As written, he has no choice but to roll the dice. Given that you've gone to NUs, that's hardly a major issue. In fact, if we are going that route, I suggest making it rolls of 19 or 20. And looking at it now, I'm going to up him back to the original 67pt cost. Extending force fury should cost something, and I think I had him too low before.
As to your point Dennis, I give you an already current and cheaper version of the same thing. Heck, if you want to make a direct comparison, you've can even insert K3po and mice for swap and still be under the cost for Palps on Throne, Thrawn, Mas, Galen by a long shot. Might as well add in Reeikan and Dodonna, and Luke HPU for almost the same cost.
Rebel Faction
Kota 55
Yoda of Dag 36
Don't repulse turn one, then Yoda turn two, Kota turn 3, Yoda turn 4, yoda 5. Now, I get that Thrawn, Palps, Galen could be slightly more powerful, but we've also seen Kota swap with Yoda. And you just don't get 2 useful repulses off in a row. The problem is, that it automatically moves everyone out of range (other than slight oddities with walls and characters to block on occasion). I've played against it several times, and I've never seen a useful second repulse.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:07 am
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There's a significant difference in those examples. Kota/YoD cannot position freely to pull off the burst. Remember, as Alvey said, it's not Galen that's the problem, it's Thrawn + Mas + Jarael.
Run Jarael 18 round 1, swap, burst. Win init, burst, take the hits, swap out. End of round 3, swap in, burst, win init, burst, take the hits, swap out. Time-out on round 5.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:25 am
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*sigh*
Starkiller was the clone, this is just another version of the apprentice.
Garen was one of the most powerful force users ever. His lightning had the potential to fry people. Force fury is a gimmick to represent that. Its not supposed to be something that happens often just kind of flavor. If its too much, too little, to redundant we can leave it. I'm not trying to get this guy to do an average of 45 dmg on lightning 2 and having people take 70 dmg on a repulse (i'm assuming you have to round down for double dmg on the "odd" multiples of 10).
The way the figure was intended was to start with the big repulse and the push and zap for the finish. Or start with a pull on a troublesome fig, finish with a repulse and pretty much die. Regardless of what force he starts on he will get ONE repulse off unless your building to using him only as in the theoretical squads Dennis posted in which case he's pretty much gonna be your whole squad.
We know how effective Apprentice/emperor squads and Yoda/kota are so i'm not really worried about him. But feel free to demonstrate otherwise.
Actually, i'm kind of curious why this guy has been thrown under the bus as "broken" seeing as Weeks has tested him the most (as far as reported play tests goes) and hasn't dropped the kybosh on him.
Quote:
What's more, Galen Marek - with Repulse 4 - is an anti-swarm Lancer-style piece and the last thing the game needs is another one of those right now. IMO he also has Mouse Droid Syndrome, as every time a new figure for either Rebel or Imperial is made, he will have to be considered.
no where near the extent of Yobuck/lancer, comparable to anakins UtF but with less range and more consistency.
I'd be fine with him having force 2/repulse 4 to begin if we can start to reach some common ground on this figure but its starting to feel like we are dancing in circles with him.
I just don't see the mouse droid syndrome aspect either. The rebels have been decimated in the meta since DotF. Did you see any at GC? Bastilla doesn't let them do anything that allowed them to dominate for the last few years so they are gonna need different directions.
I'm just not really seeing what this costly force user does thats so dramatically different from whats out there.
Quote:
There's a significant difference in those examples. Kota/YoD cannot position freely to pull off the burst. Remember, as Alvey said, it's not Galen that's the problem, it's Thrawn + Mas + Jarael.
Run Jarael 18 round 1, swap, burst. Win init, burst, take the hits, swap out. End of round 3, swap in, burst, win init, burst, take the hits, swap out. Time-out on round 5.
so you mean
Thrawn 32
Mas 8
Emperor on throne 33 (the only way he will get multiple bursts)
Garen Marek 67
lobot 27
ozzel 10
jarel 23
Thats the squad that is giving you the hebee geebee's? a squad with 13 activations max and one trick?
Dude. someone test it and come back, that looks t3 at best.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:36 am
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billiv15 wrote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 21
Att 15
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character damages a non-unique character with a force power he may roll a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force Repulse 5: Force 5, replaces turn: 50 damage to all characters within 5 squares; push back Huge or smaller characters to 6 squares from this character. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16.
Force Pull 2 force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy
Door Shatter 1 force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed
Force lightning 2
So, so close. (you missed actually putting "Force Repulse 5" on it :P )
I like this version, and also agree with all of what Deri said, and would like to get his opinion on this one.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:42 am
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I'm with deri here. What's the draw to play this dude over lord vader? Playing him your stuck against vong/pelleaon/bastilla.
I'll say what gets said to me on a regular basis. Do you have playtesting data that backs up your opinion of him? From what I see you've tested it once against a weak mando team.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:46 am
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Also Dennis, it doesn't seem like you're making a strong argument for Galen being worse than other combinations of (high point figure) + Thrawn + Jarael. Is he really that much worse than Lord Vader? I'd like to see him basically create a new alternative to the standard Lord Vader B&B squad. He's less single-target focused but has a couple more tricks and is better at killing multiple figures.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:56 am
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I'm still not opposed to the version we had before with double/twin/repulse4/pull3 at 67. Was just trying to rework it to alternate concepts to see if we liked something better. And I too would like to see play testing results before making a final change to his design. Deri has the final say on this one, my rewrites are simply ideas and possibilities as much for me to see on paper as anything else. I am still waiting on more playtesting of the original design however in both factions.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:06 pm
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Fair enough Deri, particularly since Ozzel costs 11, not 10 - which means you went over the point total, lol.
One mistake I feel we made in DotF was we swung the pendulum too far with Bastila. If I had it to do over, I would have pushed for her cost to be in the upper 40's, maybe even 49 like Rob's version, and not given her the +10 Damage bonus. She single-handedly changed the game, as the one thing I noticed is that no other pieces from DotF were really being played (unless they were in conjunction with her, like the OR Seer).
The idea was to give all the other factions a chance to step up to the game equally, not exchange the power of one faction for another. Whether R&R will have any impact on that, it is just too early to say for sure.
I did chuckle to myself as I recalled comments by members of the community that the OR was still lagging behind in power after DotF hit. :)
Back on topic, I will try to get in some tests with Galen this week. We usually get together on Wednesdays to play.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:09 pm
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Weeks wrote:
I'm with deri here. What's the draw to play this dude over lord vader? Playing him your stuck against vong/pelleaon/bastilla.
One thought I had was that you can bring Lord Vader, and then ditch him for Galen if you're opponent doesn't have one of those.
Quote:
I'll say what gets said to me on a regular basis. Do you have playtesting data that backs up your opinion of him? From what I see you've tested it once against a weak mando team.
And I will say what I said before: not everything is about top-tier meta. If we are going to make over-the-top power pieces that can win games the minute they activate, then what's the point of making anything else?
I mean, you are right. It was tested against a Mando squad that had figures from this set. And Galen blew the squad away FAST. The Mando squad WAS weak. We even tweaked it several times and it just couldn't compete. Part of that was my fault, as I built the teams.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:44 pm
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This is a really interesting discussion to read. Personally, I put more weight in Weeks' assessment after multiple playtests than I do in anything else.
Also, FWIW, it seems to me like the Replaces Turn force powers rarely get used. Kota's Repulse 5 is awesome...but never gets used because it's too hard to set up (and his 23 Def isn't enough survivability anymore either). But Thon is a monster with Repulse 4 because he can position well before setting it off. Since the Rebels are severely lacking in high-cost-beatstick-damage-dealers, I'd love to see Galen work well for them, which makes me want to see him with Repulse 4 rather than 5. Lightning 2 works well for him...3 (replaces turn) would be nearly useless, IMHO.
I'll give him a Rebel PT soon and write a report.
EDIT: Which stats should I use for Galen? There have been a number of iterations in this thread. Should I just use the ones that Weeks used?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:24 pm
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tint wrote:
EDIT: Which stats should I use for Galen? There have been a number of iterations in this thread. Should I just use the ones that Weeks used?
yes please. Start with this, do a Thrawn/ozzel/jarel swap and a rebel reiken/luke commando/crix/leia squad and see what you make of him
cost 67
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury - when this character hits a character with force lightning he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
One mistake I feel we made in DotF was we swung the pendulum too far with Bastila. If I had it to do over, I would have pushed for her cost to be in the upper 40's, maybe even 49 like Rob's version, and not given her the +10 Damage bonus. She single-handedly changed the game, as the one thing I noticed is that no other pieces from DotF were really being played (unless they were in conjunction with her, like the OR Seer).
The idea was to give all the other factions a chance to step up to the game equally, not exchange the power of one faction for another. Whether R&R will have any impact on that, it is just too early to say for sure.
this is an insteresting topic that should probably be discussed in the main design forum and possibly on the main boards itself. Seeing the OR win doesn't mean we broke the game or gave them too much. In fact, Ian managed to use 3 of the 5 major additions we gave to the OR in order to compete (bastilla, seer and senator) removing or altering anyone would have resulted in him not qualifying. He also had some excellent strategies to deal with the tough matchups in the meta that were based on his map choice (Theed) and his lobot reinforcements. Lastly he had the all important luck factor on his side which you just can't win or compete without.
His squad was designed to kill anything that relied too much on CE's (rebel, seps and republic) and would try to out muscle guys that didn't have many ce's (NR). He lost twice in the swiss to Republic and won out in the top 8 through good play, fortune and strategy.
I don't think that we just exchanged one faction for another (although when you add in meta pieces that does tend to happen), Bastilla definately gave the OR a boost but there were other squads there that ran Bastilla and didn't do quite so well. Certainly, i tried a multitude of OR builds in testing and couldn't consistently beat lancers, NR or skybuck.
It really was the combo of figures and his strategy. The SEER played as much as a part in the win as his 3 battle masters and bastilla. JR and evade is just a brutal combo that gave the squad the shield it needed against shooters and gallop/strafe.
Rebels started to suffer in general as the NR got boosted with Ganner, lancers and with skybuck wandering around. Bastilla has just brought a bit of honesty to one aspect of the game (reliance on overpowered CE's) that was needed really its just unfortunate that the rebel meta game was based entirely around 4 undercosted commanders (Dodonna, Leia, Reiken and Crix). If that combo doesn't work as well as it used to I really am not that bothered. It was tired and on the verge of breaking if not already broken.
So the meta changes. R&R may exacerbate the power of OR with Thon and Jaq wandering around but so long as we don't do something stupid like give OR activation control or CE's/force powers that give excessive evade or defence they will stay what they are which are tough force power driven commander effect killers. I fully expect them to suffer if/when the vong finally come into their own and force suppression isn't gonna do them any favors either where they will be able to do 2 things before the battlemasters are spent. With OR presenting such a melee force figs with parry that don't rely on CEs (*cough*Jaina*cough) will move up in prominence and the world turns.
They arn't broken just because they now have an identity and we didn't make a mistake just because one guy figured out the best way to use them for the time.
I think her cost was in the right ball park. 49 points and she would not have made any impact and the top tables would have been the same as last year.
Its not fair to say other DotF pieces weren't played. Exar Ghost was played, Bandon, Salacious, vong workers, yammosk, Poggle and sparties were all played across the weekend and those were just the figs I faced. I saw others playing Revan and Sora in the jedi challenge.
Pieces need to change the game so the game can evolve. Thats why people want new figs, it gives them a puzzle to figure out.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:46 pm
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I'll also add in dennis I went 6-0 in swiss using a DOTF piece. Granted it was a 5 point Spaati clone, but still GMA door control in really good.
I'll open a topic about what we are doing to effect factions, I think thats really important.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:31 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
*sigh*
Starkiller was the clone, this is just another version of the apprentice.
Ah, ok. The Force Fury ( an FU 2 game mechanic) threw me.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:21 pm
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
*sigh*
Starkiller was the clone, this is just another version of the apprentice.
Ah, ok. The Force Fury ( an FU 2 game mechanic) threw me.
yeah, thats where i got the name from but the ability applies to both. Starkiller is not exclusive to the clone either as Galens call sign was Starkiller but the clone wasnt known as anything other than starkiller. So if in future he gets made he should be called Starkiller.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:26 pm
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Sigh, 67 points. You guys are determined not to give me Paelleon swap fodder for Emperor Palpatine, Sith Lord aren't you? ;)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:34 pm
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whadaya mean? You can always take sith lord Vader and his morris dancing pose
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:01 pm
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Sid is 62 dude.
The build idea is build in lv and swap for this dude with pelleaon if you want to.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:10 pm
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I find it unlikely that Brad is itching to swap characters out in favor for Palpatine. I would assume he means he would like to see a good 62 or less point piece so Palpy can bring in clones and then get swapped out, which I think is a good idea and we might want to even create a future piece with that in mind (don't think this is the guy to do it on).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:29 pm
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Force Fury isn't exciting enough if it is only for Force Lightning, and more importantly, it restricts future design. I think it should be for all damaging Force powers.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:34 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Force Fury isn't exciting enough if it is only for Force Lightning, and more importantly, it restricts future design. I think it should be for all damaging Force powers.
With Galen, you run into a problem with Repulse. However, I think I have a solution to that with this.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Force Fury - When this character hits a character with a targetted Force ability, he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
There is no precedent I can ever think of for "he rolls a die," so we are either making a new one, or need to reword it to make a save, etc. I don't care either way, but, as always, we don't need to reinvent the wheel if we don't have to.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:59 pm
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dvader831 wrote:
There is no precedent I can ever think of for "he rolls a die," so we are either making a new one, or need to reword it to make a save, etc. I don't care either way, but, as always, we don't need to reinvent the wheel if we don't have to.
When this character uses a Force power that targets, this character attempts a save of 20. On a success the targeted character is defeated.
Sadly, taken right from the wording of Bombad Gungan....
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:14 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Force Fury isn't exciting enough if it is only for Force Lightning, and more importantly, it restricts future design. I think it should be for all damaging Force powers.
I agree. I was specifically pushing for a change to Force Fury to apply to all force powers. I decided to go with Daniel on the NU's only just for balance.
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fingersandteeth Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:19 am
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Well, i don't agree.
i wasn't thinking of throwning this around on many characters as i don't think its a good idea to perpetuate abilities that defeat outright. Actually, i don't actually any character other than Galen and his clone warrants force fury. Palpatine and Dookos force lightning bearly killed anyone (if they actually ever did kill anyone with it). You might argue some other sith might get it but it would likely end up on Bane or some epic Galen.
It was a gimmick ability added more for flavor than adding some useful ability. Extra deterrent to grouping around bodyguards when Galen is around if you like, and that was pretty much it.
If it looks unexciting or a condition that will bearly come into play, that because it was intended to be that way. Its flavour. I don't particulally want him defeating people when he pulls someone and I don't think that characters should out right be defeated by grips or pushes.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:01 am
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Well, as written, Force Pull would not trigger Force Fury. Only damage from an actual Force power.
And I agree, Deri, not many characters would have it. But I would hate to see it tied to Force Lightning because then it just means we have to come up with either a new name for it, or some twist on the rule that is equally limiting and somewhat stale.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:19 am
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ok, i understand.
I'm fine with wording it to use with other force powers for other force powers however your wording just to keep things open. I do think though the door swings both ways as far as keeping things open. If you have a character who has multiple targetted force powers that damage but you only want fury to work on one, then you need to make up a new one also. Its horses for courses but i'm not adamant that force fury only be for lightning. I'm more aprehensive of such an ability appearing multiple times in general.
Force Fury - When this character hits a character with a targetted Force ability, he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
means that Force pull would work with force fury as there is no mention of damage. easy fix though.
Force Fury - When this character damages another character with a targetted Force ability, he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
it should probably be clarified that the attack granted via force pull doesn't trigger the ability.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:50 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
ok, i understand.
I'm fine with wording it to use with other force powers for other force powers however your wording just to keep things open. I do think though the door swings both ways as far as keeping things open. If you have a character who has multiple targetted force powers that damage but you only want fury to work on one, then you need to make up a new one also. Its horses for courses but i'm not adamant that force fury only be for lightning. I'm more aprehensive of such an ability appearing multiple times in general.
Force Fury - When this character hits a character with a targetted Force ability, he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
means that Force pull would work with force fury as there is no mention of damage. easy fix though.
Force Fury - When this character damages another character with a targetted Force ability, he rolls a die, on a natural 20 that character is defeated
it should probably be clarified that the attack granted via force pull doesn't trigger the ability.
If a target enemy would take damage from this character's Force Powers, this character attempts a save of 20. On a success the targeted character is defeated.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:40 pm
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Errata on Logray: FORCE FURRY!
:D Corrupt this, Teddy Bear!
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:48 pm
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I don't like it being worded as a save 20, because it's too easy to get Mettle to make that a save 16, especially in Rebels. It's also not too hard to get MotF 2; let Obi die while Anakin FS is on the board and now Galen gets to re-roll the save with Mettle. It could still be a save, but a success would have to be a natural 20, not just a normal 20.
Also, I want to insist (a third time) that it only works on non-uniques. I just don't think even more auto-kill abilties are good for the game in general, but preventing it from hitting your uniques makes it acceptable.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:02 pm
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Daniel, I had missed where you had made that opinion, and I have to agree with it.
Quote:
Force Fury - When this character damages a non-unique enemy character with a targetted Force ability, he makes a save. On a roll of a natural 20 that character is defeated.
Do we have a concensus that this covers all of the ideas we have been meshing together?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:42 pm
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dvader831 wrote:
Daniel, I had missed where you had made that opinion, and I have to agree with it.
Quote:
Force Fury - When this character damages a non-unique enemy character with a targetted Force ability, he makes a save. On a roll of a natural 20 that character is defeated.
Do we have a concensus that this covers all of the ideas we have been meshing together?
Looks good to me, except it needs to be "Force power", not "Force ability". Force Abilities are something created in DotF; Force Powers are anything that cost FP.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:59 am
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dvader831 wrote:
Daniel, I had missed where you had made that opinion, and I have to agree with it.
Quote:
Force Fury - When this character damages a non-unique enemy character with a targetted Force ability, he makes a save. On a roll of a natural 20 that character is defeated.
Do we have a concensus that this covers all of the ideas we have been meshing together?
Force Repulse is not targetted. Is that the intention? What about Unleash the Force or Thought Bomb or Force Detonate? Granted, those force powers are much less common. My intention in pointing this out is simply to help us make sure that we're covering our bases as carefully as we can. If this is what we are intending, then it sounds fine to me.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:50 am
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Yes, I believe avoiding Repulse (and the like) is the intention. It's not the kind of ability you should be able to hit many targets with.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:02 am
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yes, its too avoid too much abuse of the ability. You could still hit 3 guys with zap and have a ~12 % chance of zapping something dead. Most non-uniqes will die to the zap anyway.
The proposed changes are fine, this is merely a flavor ability.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:25 am
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suggestion: rename ability to Force Fury 20.
Frankly, nearly every ability and power should be tier-ed if possible.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:29 am
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Stay with Non-uniques and make it Force Fury 19. Galen should be one of if not the best at this, so if we ever use it again we can use the Force Fury 20 option.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:45 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:54 pm
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Force Fury should be "...with a targeted force power..."
Otherwise looks good for now.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:59 pm
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Echo wrote:
Force Fury should be "...with a targeted force power..."
Why? I am asking from a general design standpoint as opposed to questioning it on Galen.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:05 pm
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Echo wrote:
Yes, I believe avoiding Repulse (and the like) is the intention. It's not the kind of ability you should be able to hit many targets with.
Mostly that. Hitting a big group of characters with Repulse and then making the Force Fury roll for everyone involved seems unpleasant in general, and I would like to avoid that.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:10 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:10 pm
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Echo wrote:
Echo wrote:
Yes, I believe avoiding Repulse (and the like) is the intention. It's not the kind of ability you should be able to hit many targets with.
Mostly that. Hitting a big group of characters with Repulse and then making the Force Fury roll for everyone involved seems unpleasant in general, and I would like to avoid that.
Except that it doesn't really prevent that. Maybe on Galen, it does. But what if the next character that has FF also gets Force Push 3 or 5? Or are we (and by we I mean you, lol) tying the hands of future designers on what interactions of powers and FF are going to be allowed?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:18 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Echo wrote:
Echo wrote:
Yes, I believe avoiding Repulse (and the like) is the intention. It's not the kind of ability you should be able to hit many targets with.
Mostly that. Hitting a big group of characters with Repulse and then making the Force Fury roll for everyone involved seems unpleasant in general, and I would like to avoid that.
Except that it doesn't really prevent that. Maybe on Galen, it does. But what if the next character that has FF also gets Force Push 3 or 5? Or are we (and by we I mean you, lol) tying the hands of future designers on what interactions of powers and FF are going to be allowed?
I don't see FF 3 or 5 being as big of an issue with it as Repulse, because it's harder to hit as many characters with one of those Pushes as it is with a Repulse of almost any size.
If the consensus is that it should work on all damaging powers instead of just targeted ones, that's fine. Personally, I think that's a mistake, and have made that point multiple times in this thread (and have had multiple people agree with me). If you believe otherwise, go ahead and state why, because I've already said why I think it should work this way.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:21 pm
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i think if it ends on FP3 or FP5 it would be fine. Your really not likely to hit more than a few people. You can total 8 with push 5 but if anyone gives you an 8 man FP you kind of deserve to get a few pieces killed instantly.
The repulse is much more likely to hit a large number of pieces as you just need to levitate or swap him into the center of a cluster.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:43 pm
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Needs testing with new stats.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:07 pm
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What are the new stats? The ones Deri posted several weeks ago, or have there been changes since then?
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:33 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
What are the new stats? The ones Deri posted several weeks ago, or have there been changes since then?
The ones in his post from 9/13 on the previous page.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:02 am
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Played this guy in a Rebel squad this weekend (Galen, Princess Leia, Luke RC, Madine, Rieekan, Dodonna, TBSV, filler) and wasn't particularly impressed. He lacks good cohesion with the Rebel faction. Giving him GMA via Rieekan and the TBSV isn't bad, but for his cost it isn't great, either. One thing that was very much noticed in play was that he didn't get to use his Force Powers as much as I would have liked to see. I think a good change would be dropping him to 1 starting FP but increasing Renewal to Renewal 2. That might make Repulse 4 a bit too powerful, so I think it's worth considering dropping that for Repulse 3. Renewal 2 lets him do lots of Lightning and get Pull off much more often, though, and overall I think it makes him feel more like Galen (a Force powerhouse who uses it a lot).
Other than that, I'm not really sure what else to change about him. He seems like he's pretty good in Imperials, but is lacking something in Rebels. As a faction they just don't have good support for melee figures I guess, especially considering they have such great shooting options it's hard to pick him over other things. One idea Graham came up with is to give him Synergy or Rapport with Juno Eclipse; that would give him a definite boost in Rebels while not making him too good as an Imperial.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:23 am
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Echo wrote:
Played this guy in a Rebel squad this weekend (Galen, Princess Leia, Luke RC, Madine, Rieekan, Dodonna, TBSV, filler) and wasn't particularly impressed. He lacks good cohesion with the Rebel faction. Giving him GMA via Rieekan and the TBSV isn't bad, but for his cost it isn't great, either. One thing that was very much noticed in play was that he didn't get to use his Force Powers as much as I would have liked to see. I think a good change would be dropping him to 1 starting FP but increasing Renewal to Renewal 2. That might make Repulse 4 a bit too powerful, so I think it's worth considering dropping that for Repulse 3. Renewal 2 lets him do lots of Lightning and get Pull off much more often, though, and overall I think it makes him feel more like Galen (a Force powerhouse who uses it a lot).
Other than that, I'm not really sure what else to change about him. He seems like he's pretty good in Imperials, but is lacking something in Rebels. As a faction they just don't have good support for melee figures I guess, especially considering they have such great shooting options it's hard to pick him over other things. One idea Graham came up with is to give him Synergy or Rapport with Juno Eclipse; that would give him a definite boost in Rebels while not making him too good as an Imperial.
This is a similar problem that we ran into with BoT Maul. (I'm not saying you were suggesting this), but just because a figure doesn't have great options in a faction right now doesn't mean it's wrong. I think Galen is pretty close to set. You use Force Pull as the replaces turn ability, and Repulse as the replaces attacks. Changing it to repulse 3 and a second replaces turn ability makes him worse, not better. As for Renewal 2, I can go either way on him. I'll let Deri decide on that. But I'm not particularly in favor of it. He has plenty of ways as a Rebel to get extra force, and as an imperial this could push him to the broken realm. As for synergy or rapport for Juno, I don't see that doing anything at all. It doesn't make him better, and she's pretty cheap (too cheap for synergy) anyways. I think its best to leave him as is, if he's balanced and passes PT, and work on the Rebel faction in general which currently doesn't support non CE builds. He's pretty solid on his own, and his lack of performance in the Rebel faction is a factor of that, not of his stat design (which remember Dennis thought was darn near broken in the Imperial faction).
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:38 am
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I know Repulse 3 would make him worse, that was a suggestion to go along with Renewal 2 to help even him out (since Renewal 2 would make him quite a bit better).
It seems like he should be the first on many steps to improve the Rebel faction (make them less reliant on CEs). As is, he's just much better in Imperials. I'm not sure of the best way to balance him, though, so he doesn't get to be too good in Imperials. I don't think having Renewal 2 would help him as much as an Imperial (with hit-and-run swapping tactics he'll have enough rounds to build up the FP he needs to do what he wants, since he won't have to use back to back force powers much), but it would be a big thing for Rebels (since he's more likely to need to use Force Powers in back-to-back rounds).
Juno probably is too cheap for Rapport (I'm assuming you meant that, not Synergy), but I think that if he got +2/+2 while within 6 of Juno that would be a pretty solid solution. Doesn't overpower him still (22 defense and +16 attack isn't extreme for a 67 point piece), but helps make up for the fact that he doesn't synergize as well with Rebels as he does with Imperials.
The issue is definitely that he just doesn't fit with the Rebels, not that he isn't good, which is why it's hard to fix that without making him too good in Imperials. If we leave him as is he'll be alright, and maybe future Rebel pieces will make him even better, but right now he's a strong Imperial piece and a mediocre Rebel piece. I'd prefer him to be strong in both, or even a strong Rebel piece and a mediocre Imperial piece, since Rebels are more in need of a solid piece like him that doesn't need help from commanders.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:46 am
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Yes I meant "rapport" lol. But I was also arguing that Juno is too cheap to gain synergy.
I'm ok with him having synergy where he's +2/2 with her, but I'll leave that up to Deri.
Although as it is, I'm still not convinced Force Pull isn't a very strong mechanic that might lead us into dangerous areas down the road. So much so that I'd rather error on the side of a little high in cost than break this guy.
After all, he's costed pretty accurately based on the force powers in comparison to his other two versions. I could maybe agree with a 1-2 lower cost, but that's about my limit. otherwise, we just need to see what happens with him in the game.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:22 am
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fingersandteeth wrote:
cost 65
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Rapport - juno eclipse cost 1 less in a squad with this character.
Force 3
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
some token changes
dropped his cost by 2 and gave him an extra force. Really not interested in giving him FR2, but now he can get a 1st round repulse if anyone wants to do it.
Even though ABM makes Reiken weaker he's still going to be in a lot of squads so he should get some range defense.
token rapport for juno.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:35 am
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I still say a first round repulse in a faction that can outactivate, move a figure 18 squares, and then board-wide swap a piece into place so it can in turn move 6 squares and do automatic 40 damage to every character within 4 squares is broken. If you bring Palp on Throne, he can do it again before swapping out (though admittedly it may be less effective, but it is still 80 damage to the biggest threats and uncounterable, for the most part).
I definitely do not support lowering the cost.
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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:04 am
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The other issue is that he can do that easily in Imperials, but still isn't nearly as good as a Rebel. Yeah he can get Evade, but I still don't think that evens it out. I'm still in favor of him having Synergy (This character gains +2/+2 while within 6 of Juno Eclipse), as 1 point worth of Rapport doesn't seem to change a lot to me.
Starting with more Force is nice, though. Lets him get more cool force powers off, and he should be all about his cool force powers.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:10 am
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I'm opposed to adding the force as well. Other changes are fine with me. I dont' want the risk of a first round repulse.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:24 am
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Echo wrote:
The other issue is that he can do that easily in Imperials, but still isn't nearly as good as a Rebel. Yeah he can get Evade, but I still don't think that evens it out. I'm still in favor of him having Synergy (This character gains +2/+2 while within 6 of Juno Eclipse), as 1 point worth of Rapport doesn't seem to change a lot to me.
Starting with more Force is nice, though. Lets him get more cool force powers off, and he should be all about his cool force powers.
Actually he can do it in Rebels, just not as easily.
K3P0 + Rebel Troop Cart + Mouse Droid + Jarael
You basically put the Mouse Droid on the troop cart and then race it down the map. Then you position Jarael where you want her, within 6 of the Mouse, and activate K3P0 to do the swap.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:23 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Echo wrote:
The other issue is that he can do that easily in Imperials, but still isn't nearly as good as a Rebel. Yeah he can get Evade, but I still don't think that evens it out. I'm still in favor of him having Synergy (This character gains +2/+2 while within 6 of Juno Eclipse), as 1 point worth of Rapport doesn't seem to change a lot to me.
Starting with more Force is nice, though. Lets him get more cool force powers off, and he should be all about his cool force powers.
Actually he can do it in Rebels, just not as easily.
K3P0 + Rebel Troop Cart + Mouse Droid + Jarael
You basically put the Mouse Droid on the troop cart and then race it down the map. Then you position Jarael where you want her, within 6 of the Mouse, and activate K3P0 to do the
swap.
Ummm, troop cart? I think that's a bit of a stretch there Dennis :). If you think the repulse is too strong that's fine, but the soap dish won't make it worse lol.
If your worried about the repulse it could be altered to one of the replaces turn ones. Also does he have the pull 2 (replaces attacks) or the pull 3 (replaces turn) powers? 2 replaces turn powers on him isnt worth it IMO, but they would promote using his attacks more.
And honestly I'll say this yet again, Galen can't be the guy like LV can be the guy. He will do 1-2 powers the spend the rest on rerolls and blocks. Having a replaces turn repulse will get rid of all this worry I think. I'll check into him some tonight.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:29 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Echo wrote:
The other issue is that he can do that easily in Imperials, but still isn't nearly as good as a Rebel. Yeah he can get Evade, but I still don't think that evens it out. I'm still in favor of him having Synergy (This character gains +2/+2 while within 6 of Juno Eclipse), as 1 point worth of Rapport doesn't seem to change a lot to me.
Starting with more Force is nice, though. Lets him get more cool force powers off, and he should be all about his cool force powers.
Actually he can do it in Rebels, just not as easily.
K3P0 + Rebel Troop Cart + Mouse Droid + Jarael
You basically put the Mouse Droid on the troop cart and then race it down the map. Then you position Jarael where you want her, within 6 of the Mouse, and activate K3P0 to do the swap.
Ummm, troop cart? I think that's a bit of a stretch there Dennis :). If you think the repulse is too strong that's fine, but the soap dish won't make it worse lol.
I didn't say it would make it worse. Someone said its not a problem in Rebels because they don't have board-wide swap, and I showed how they could simulate it. :)
Also, don't knock the Soap-dish Swap until you've tried it. If it works for a Felucian Rancor, why wouldn't it work for Galen? :)
Quote:
If your worried about the repulse it could be altered to one of the replaces turn ones. Also does he have the pull 2 (replaces attacks) or the pull 3 (replaces turn) powers? 2 replaces turn powers on him isnt worth it IMO, but they would promote using his attacks more.
I think dropping him to 1 starting Force point with Renewal 1 and a cost of 65-67 is fine. Going to a replaces turn ability doesn't solve the problem.
Quote:
And honestly I'll say this yet again, Galen can't be the guy like LV can be the guy. He will do 1-2 powers the spend the rest on rerolls and blocks. Having a replaces turn repulse will get rid of all this worry I think. I'll check into him some tonight.
[/quote]
Oh man you have so much to learn. :P Galen can be the guy. You bring LV and Palleon and then dump LV for Galen when you see your opponent is playing swarm. I like Galen as a figure but I don't want to see first round wins, and he can bring that to the table the way he is currently designed.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:49 pm
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No one said "it's not a problem" because Rebels don't have boardwide swap; I implied that's a good strategy in Imperials (the round 1 across the board swap) but isn't a good one in Rebels, and to be honest I think that you proved it by simulating it with K-3P0 and the Troop Cart. If that's the only way Rebels can take advantage of it, they are clearly not doing it half as well as Imperials.
Dropping him to 1 starting Force Point with FR 1 is not only out of character for him (his Force Powers should be his strength), but it makes him hard to use. You won't be able to do any of his good stuff until round 3 or 4 or you'll wind up running out of FP too quickly.
I really don't see him getting first round wins anyway. For one thing, if your opponent is playing swarm they are probably outactivating your LV squad. Secondly, they can just set up in a way that you don't get the big first round Repulse on enough figures to be worth it. Overall, he still does way less damage to swarms than Yobuck or Lancer do to them.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:20 pm
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I think Alvey said it best when he said, "The problem isn't so much Galen as it is Thrawn + Mas + Jarael."
You and I must be playing the game differently Daniel, if you think you can position your pieces to reduce the effect a round-1 swap will have on your squad. Unless you have Force Immunity, I guarantee I am bursting for at least 200 damage. There's just not the room you need to manuever away. You have to really spread out and you just can't do that on the maps that are legal right now.
Coupled with Evade in a Rebel squad, it creates its own challenge there, as everything must base to land hits. Once you're there, I pop. With a Force battery (which is available in both options of factions), Galen is unstoppable as long as he is alive.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:33 pm
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Seems to me the simple (and canonical) solution would be to drop the Imperial Affinity.
This is Galen Marek, not Starkiller, and yes I get they are the same being, but only in the sense that Darth Vader=Anakin Skywalker.
Galen Marek is the Lightside. Starkiller is the Darkside. Follow the example WotC gave us with this guy and make a future piece called Starkiller.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:34 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I think Alvey said it best when he said, "The problem isn't so much Galen as it is Thrawn + Mas + Jarael."
You and I must be playing the game differently Daniel, if you think you can position your pieces to reduce the effect a round-1 swap will have on your squad. Unless you have Force Immunity, I guarantee I am bursting for at least 200 damage. There's just not the room you need to manuever away. You have to really spread out and you just can't do that on the maps that are legal right now.
Coupled with Evade in a Rebel squad, it creates its own challenge there, as everything must base to land hits. Once you're there, I pop. With a Force battery (which is available in both options of factions), Galen is unstoppable as long as he is alive.
I have to wonder, have you actually played with Galen yet? If so, what revision was it? I played multiple games with him in a Rebel squad 2 days ago, and definitely don't believe he's nearly as powerful as you seem to.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:35 pm
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Seems to me the simple (and canonical) solution would be to drop the Imperial Affinity.
This is Galen Marek, not Starkiller, and yes I get they are the same being, but only in the sense that Darth Vader=Anakin Skywalker.
Galen Marek is the Lightside. Starkiller is the Darkside. Follow the example WotC gave us with this guy and make a future piece called Starkiller.
I'd be in favor of that. I think he'd have to be tweaked a bit, though, because like I've said, he's not that great as a Rebel.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:01 pm
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I'm curious to see this magic squad that has LV, pelleon, jareal, thrawn mas, ozzel, and enough acts to outact people by 3 (which is what ozzel squads need to move swapper activated thrawn and attack). I can get this squad to 17 acts. That's not winning too many games.
Is master thon's repulse an issue? Is roron corrorb dominating swarms? Is kota? The latter 2 have boardwide swap too. You keep making these claims about how it's OP but where are these reports at? I'd like to see them. Are they in the PT thread? I haven't read it lately so I might have missed them. I'm not saying I disagree with you, just that Id like to see a report that shows what you claim, as "I have much to learn" jk.
Dropping imperial affinity is an interesting idea. You could probably lower his cost a good amount with that too. He'd have to be tweaked that's for sure.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:24 pm
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Well realistically, I'm not sure I would bring Ozzel anymore. I'd probably bring old school Tarkin so I can activate 3. And even if I did have Ozzel and you also had tempo control, I wouldn't wait for the end of the round to make my move. I'd run Jarael up mid round, let you take your one act, and then activate Thrawn for the swap. You get one act to try to screw with what I'm about to do to your squad. And unless you have an MTB, NTMO, or I roll a 1 on my own, I would have enough control to do whatever I wanted at the start of the next round, especially if I am running Tarkin, as I would activate Galen AND Thrawn.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:25 pm
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Echo wrote:
The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Seems to me the simple (and canonical) solution would be to drop the Imperial Affinity.
This is Galen Marek, not Starkiller, and yes I get they are the same being, but only in the sense that Darth Vader=Anakin Skywalker.
Galen Marek is the Lightside. Starkiller is the Darkside. Follow the example WotC gave us with this guy and make a future piece called Starkiller.
I'd be in favor of that. I think he'd have to be tweaked a bit, though, because like I've said, he's not that great as a Rebel.
I could also support this suggestion.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:14 am
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well, lets talk squads here then
galen marek
thrawn
jareal
mas
edog poopchair
tarkin
lobot
200
thats the squad your talking about
swap ozzel for tarkin
this could be pretty interesting
Garen Malek
thrawn
mas
emperor on pot
Paelleon
lobot
ozzel
gran
uggie
lobot for an amanin, bounce emperor for Arica if need be, or ozzel into jag or something
without lobot you could do
jareal
ozzel
r7?
I like the versatility palleon can bring but its fairly tough to keep him and all the other stuff.
Forseplosion
gaken malek
Thrawn
mas
nightsister mother
potty palpy
jareal
witch biztch
r7
salacious
2 brutes
2 uggies
anyof those look mighty? they look fun but i don't think they break the game or anything
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:59 am
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rebel ideas
Galen
troopcart
k3po
lukes snowspeeder
dodona
reikeen
leia
2 mice
2 uggie
you can fit override if you remove lukes ss for wedge
Galen Malek
Luke commando
yoda ghost
reiken
scounrel (or shak ti)
lobot
uggie
quite expensive for the rebels.
galen
leia (or yod fs)
luke rc
reiken
han taun or smuggler
dods
loblot
uggies n stuff
the inspiration of the piece is the game force unleashed 1. You were both imperial and rebel and you didn't really alter your powers based on who you fought for as I remember. you could always smash doors, zap, push pull and hack. i thought this would be an interesting piece for both factions but not gsme breaking. Kind of maris brood on steroids.
i just don't see this piece having game breaking impact., his cost is just too high to really cause problems
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:21 am
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Deri, have you actually played with the piece at all. I have. 4 times. And Galen always dominates. You just can't spread your figures out enough. I pop for 80 damage in back to back rounds and there is nothing you can do about it. The first time I pop is always the most brutal, the second time is just to knock out your biggest threat.
The squads you posted are not super-strong, I agree, and if you keep the Force at 1 or 2 to start with, it's fairly manageable. There's really no way to prevent him from a first-round Repulse because you can bring Palp on Throne (or Yoda of Dagobah for gung-ho, dedicated Rebel fanboys hellbent on making the combo work in the Rebels), but the goal of it should be to prevent him from doing it twice in a row, near or at the end of one round and then right off the bat on the next.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:27 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Deri, have you actually played with the piece at all. I have. 4 times. And Galen always dominates.
Please post these 4 play reports in the playtesting thread.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:29 am
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I doubt it would change anything. If me telling you what I found about it isn't good enough, then reading a play-by-play report I didn't really take notes on won't mean much more.
Essentially, this is how it played out. At some point on round 1, Jarael ran 18 squares to a good position for swapping. Then I swapped. Then I ran 6 and repulsed. I killed 5 or 6 pieces the first time. Everything else fell back 4 squares. Some of those figures moved, trying to stay more than 4 squares away from each other. In some instances, this pushed them out of position and made it hard for the squad to do anything. Then, I won init and ran Galen up 6 squares to where he could do the most damage. Anybody with less than 90 hit points and unfortunate enough to have activated before Galen swapped in on the previous round was just screwed. Once, I was able to go after a group of figures that simply couldn't split up enough to avoid a second-round burst.
Alvey is supposed to come by the house tonight. I will try to take better notes and post them.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:42 am
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It just seems like you're hating on Galen pretty hard, and I haven't seen any good evidence for it; just a lot of theories and some games that have convinced you but none of us have seen anything at all about. I wonder who you played against, what squad they played, what your whole squad was, what map you played on, etc. Those things matter. If you played against a tier 1 squad and destroyed them with Galen that's one thing; if you played against a swarm of Dejariks and destroyed them that's something totally different.
Deri/Bill: What about changing the Repulse to Repulse 5 (or even 3) and dropping the Pull to Pull 2? Repulse 5 already exists in the Rebel faction, and Replace Attacks Pull would work much better for him as a Rebel I think. That keeps him with just one Replace Turn power and might balance him out a bit.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:50 am
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Echo wrote:
It just seems like you're hating on Galen pretty hard, and I haven't seen any good evidence for it; just a lot of theories and some games that have convinced you but none of us have seen anything at all about. I wonder who you played against, what squad they played, what your whole squad was, what map you played on, etc. Those things matter. If you played against a tier 1 squad and destroyed them with Galen that's one thing; if you played against a swarm of Dejariks and destroyed them that's something totally different.
Okay, ignoring the ridiculousness of your statement about Djariks (Don't be stupid, that is the akin of saying "Did you play a game against 20 Tuskens?" a comment Bill once made, and you know better than that just as much as he did when he said that about the Tuskens), you are right. I have "hated" on Galen. I think he is too powerful with 3 Force points. It's not theory, either. Are we looking at the same card? And no, I didn't play against anyone else. It's not rocket science. I don't need Deep Blue to figure out whether a piece is broken. I built some squads myself testing some of the figures and I ran them, on my own. I watched some of the guys play a few games with Galen a while back and I shared those reports but no one really took it seriously then, either. Believe it or not, I DO understand design. And I knew before I pushed the figs around the map the guy was an issue. I wasn't the only one to see it, just the only one in this discussion apparently...
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:06 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Okay, ignoring the ridiculousness of your statement about Djariks (Don't be stupid, that is the akin of saying "Did you play a game against 20 Tuskens?" a comment Bill once made, and you know better than that just as much as he did when he said that about the Tuskens),
I was being hyperbolic. Come on, that was obvious.
Quote:
I have "hated" on Galen. I think he is too powerful with 3 Force points. It's not theory, either. Are we looking at the same card? And no, I didn't play against anyone else. It's not rocket science. I don't need Deep Blue to figure out whether a piece is broken. I built some squads myself testing some of the figures and I ran them, on my own. I watched some of the guys play a few games with Galen a while back and I shared those reports but no one really took it seriously then, either. Believe it or not, I DO understand design. And I knew before I pushed the figs around the map the guy was an issue. I wasn't the only one to see it, just the only one in this discussion apparently...
Sounds like you think your opinion is just better than the rest of ours, which isn't particularly helpful. Believe it or not, the rest of us DO understand design also. I'm still really curious about what squads you played him against.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:09 am
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I don't think my opinion is better, I just don't think you guys have actually played with the card from the way you have talked. And I read the reports. It didn't sound like anyone tried to break the card either.
When we first tested as a group, it was used in a Rebel squad vs. NR. The new Kyle was also tested. Jason tested Mandos against an Imperial squad with Galen. The power difference between what the Mandos were getting and what Galen brought to the Imperial squad because of Thrawn and Mas and Jarael was very obvious.
Playing around with it on my own, I threw together a Lancer style squad vs. the Imperial version. I also put up the Imperial squad against a 200 pt. NR team, and in both cases I used the other pieces from V3. I did throw down with Palp on Throne once, but Deri's comments were correct. It's not as potent, but all I need is one well-timed Repulse and it doesn't matter if you have a stronger squad than me or not.
I'm not saying you or anyone else doesn't understand design. But so far I have not really seen any evidence that directly contradicts what I am telling you. All I have gotten is reluctance to believe what I am saying. Show me something that disproves what i have found about this piece and I will listen.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:11 am
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I played the best Rebel squad I could come up with for him on Sunday, and he was pretty lackluster. I haven't tested him as an Imperial, which is why I've mostly been talking about him as a Rebel, but I've agreed that he's stronger as an Imperial and should be more balanced between the two factions.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:16 am
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Echo wrote:
I played the best Rebel squad I could come up with for him on Sunday, and he was pretty lackluster. I haven't tested him as an Imperial, which is why I've mostly been talking about him as a Rebel, but I've agreed that he's stronger as an Imperial and should be more balanced between the two factions.
We are on the same page, then. Finally! :)
As a Rebel he is fine. As an Imperial, I really suggest you test him.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:21 am
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This was the original squad, I believe.
67 Galen
32 Thrawn
27 Lobot
23 Jarael
16 R7 x2
12 Rodian Brute x4
11 Ozzel
08 Mas Amedda
04 Gran Raider x1
This assumed 3 Force points to start with, I believe.
My recommendation is to leave the cost at 67 and set the starting force at 1 (2 would be acceptable, but less ideal). If he wants to get early round bursts off, he should have to pay for it.
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thereisnotry Online
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:00 pm
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Some thoughts which occured to me when thinking about this piece:
If Galen is a force monster (which he is), then shouldn't he for sure have Force Renewal 2? When I played the games, I hardly ever used my lightsaber...it was all zaps, pushes, repulses, and Move Objects (the most fun!). Start him at 1 FP to prevent the first round repulse if really necessary, but it would be nice if this character could keep some of that force-monster-flavor.
Maybe drop Twin. :o Twin and Opp (Thrawn) is what makes the Pull so dangerous. Losing Twin would serve to limit his damage output in Imperial squads. If people want to run a Galen/Jarael swap squad, they'll be able to get a good Repulse or two, but after that their main character will only be able to do a max of 60dmg/round with opportunist melee attacks...in other words, he'll still be needing to use the force in order to do real damage each round.
And then, to boost him in Rebels, why not let him gain Twin Attack when he's in the same squad as Juno? It would basically be a different version of Synergy (gaining Twin rather than +4 or +2). It would encourage him to be played with Juno (good for flavor), and it would also give him an extra boost in a Rebel squad, which he needs. It would also give them a quad-attack beatstick, which they desperately need if they're ever going to break out of the Han/Leia Cannon squad archtype.
And hey, if you're still reading at this point, then maybe you'd consider dropping his cost a little to account for the loss of Twin Attack. He's currently overcosted in Rebels anyway, so even if he gets Twin from Juno, he's still not worth his points at 67/63. Maybe 60 pts, with no Twin Attack (but Twin Synergy from Juno).
I know I'm not supposed to comment here since I'm not one of the 3 Designers, but I do know from my other creative endeavors that sometimes an outside perspective can help to shed some new light.
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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:29 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
If Galen is a force monster (which he is), then shouldn't he for sure have Force Renewal 2? When I played the games, I hardly ever used my lightsaber...it was all zaps, pushes, repulses, and Move Objects (the most fun!). Start him at 1 FP to prevent the first round repulse if really necessary, but it would be nice if this character could keep some of that force-monster-flavor.
Agreed with all points here. I suggested earlier that he should have 1 FP and FR 2; I still do like this for him.
Quote:
Maybe drop Twin. :o Twin and Opp (Thrawn) is what makes the Pull so dangerous. Losing Twin would serve to limit his damage output in Imperial squads. If people want to run a Galen/Jarael swap squad, they'll be able to get a good Repulse or two, but after that their main character will only be able to do a max of 60dmg/round with opportunist melee attacks...in other words, he'll still be needing to use the force in order to do real damage each round.
I kind of like this. Honestly I could see him losing Twin and going up to Triple attack also. Losing the Twin does make Pull much less powerful.
Quote:
And then, to boost him in Rebels, why not let him gain Twin Attack when he's in the same squad as Juno? It would basically be a different version of Synergy (gaining Twin rather than +4 or +2). It would encourage him to be played with Juno (good for flavor), and it would also give him an extra boost in a Rebel squad, which he needs. It would also give them a quad-attack beatstick, which they desperately need if they're ever going to break out of the Han/Leia Cannon squad archtype.
Hmm. I'm not so sure about using Synergy to give out special abilities, but likewise I don't see a reason we couldn't. I'm still very much in favor of some kind of synergy with Juno, since as is he synergizes much less with Rebels than he does with Imperials, and Rebels are the ones that need a good beatstick more than Imperials.
Quote:
And hey, if you're still reading at this point, then maybe you'd consider dropping his cost a little to account for the loss of Twin Attack. He's currently overcosted in Rebels anyway, so even if he gets Twin from Juno, he's still not worth his points at 67/63. Maybe 60 pts, with no Twin Attack (but Twin Synergy from Juno).
Yeah, if we change him his cost will have to be reevaluated.
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Echo Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:16 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
cost 65
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Triple Attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Synergy - This character gains +2 Attack and +2 Defense when within 6 squares of a character whose name contains Juno Eclipse.
Force 1
Force renewal 2
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 5 - (Force 5, replaces turn: 50 damage to all characters within 5 squares; push back Huge or smaller characters to 6 squares from this character. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16.)
Force Pull 2 (force 2 - replace attacks: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
So how about something like this? Force Pull is toned down a good bit without Twin and going down to FP 2, but now he has Repulse 5. Still has to wait until at least Round 2 to do the Repulse, and it replaces turn, and that will drain him of FP. Synergy gives him a small boost in Rebels. He can Pull every turn now if he wants, but he only gets 1 attack from it.
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thereisnotry Online
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:05 pm
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He's much weaker now, IMHO.
Repulse 4 is better than Repulse 5 any day. The Replaces Turn force abilities have always been notoriously hard to pull off. Mobile-Repulses (along with Rebel zaps) would be really cool in Rebels. IMHO, for him to be worth anywhere near 60pts, he needs to have Repulse 4. If he starts with 1 FP (rather than 2), he wouldn't be able to Repulse until the 2nd round anyway.
Other than that, I'd say he looks pretty solid. Cost would naturally need some tweaking.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:18 pm
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I absolutely despise him getting anything significant for playing with Juno. She's almost an auto-include in rebel builds anyways, more important these days than Reeikan, and she's cheap as hell. I know what the flavor is, but he was a loner, all she did was fly him around.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:59 pm
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So what version are we testing? I will try Deri's version tonight.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:59 pm
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Okay so I played Galen with Pellaeon and new Thrawn against Bastila and OR support. I won both games, as expected. I did not bring Palp on Throne.
Basically, I kept the bulk of my pieces around Pellaeon so I could ignore ABM, as was intended when we made Pellaeon. After playing, I decided Force Repulse 4 is okay as long as Galen starts with 2 Force and has a cost of 67.
The reason for the cost of 67 is because I can build my squad with Agent of Evil Vader and then dump him without penalty if I think Galen will be a better option. I don't think that is a good thing. You should have to give up points if you want to swap out a commander at that point level IMO.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:05 am
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fingersandteeth wrote:
cost 67
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Rapport - juno eclipse cost 1 less in a squad with this character.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
I can take or leave the rapport or synergy or whatever.
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:35 am
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I kind of like the Rapport. It at least gives him some additional value as Rebel, and let's face it, his presence in the Rebel faction doesn't have a lot to do with why he costs as much as he does lol.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:58 am
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suggestion:
If the goal is to make him more worthwhile in the Rebels, what about:
Synergy (this character gets Force Renewal 2 while within 6 squares of character whose name contains Juno Eclipse).. or something like that. Also more force use while a Rebel, without OP in Imperial.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:08 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I kind of like the Rapport. It at least gives him some additional value as Rebel, and let's face it, his presence in the Rebel faction doesn't have a lot to do with why he costs as much as he does lol.
Yep. I still prefer Synergy +2/+2 (Ruhk's idea is interesting, too), but Rapport works also.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:14 am
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Rapport/Synergy/whatever
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:53 am
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And I'm going to say it one more time. Juno should do nothing for him besides rapport 1. That's the best she can offer. She's too cheap for much else. I'll support the following, even though I despise the rapport and think it's a waste of precious card space. With that I'm willing to say he's done.
cost 67
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Rapport - juno eclipse cost 1 less in a squad with this character.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:21 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
...even though I despise the rapport and think it's a waste of precious card space.
I don't understand this statement at all. How are you wasting card space? Is it replacing some other block of text you prefer more? Do you want the card to have blank space instead? I honestly don't know what this means.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:25 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
...even though I despise the rapport and think it's a waste of precious card space.
I don't understand this statement at all. How are you wasting card space? Is it replacing some other block of text you prefer more? Do you want the card to have blank space instead? I honestly don't know what this means.
It means he's a packed card already that probably will require smaller text. Do we really need to squeeze the space for rapport on an 8pt disruptive figure that's probably already in his squad anyway?
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:31 pm
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No one plays Juno anymore. Most people don't even play Rebels anymore. The minute she couldn't get Evade 100% of the time, she went back in the box. For 5 pts. more, I will take an 18-defense Stealth option for Disruptive instead.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:35 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
No one plays Juno anymore. Most people don't even play Rebels anymore. The minute she couldn't get Evade 100% of the time, she went back in the box. For 5 pts. more, I will take an 18-defense Stealth option for Disruptive instead.
Yeah, I'm pretty lost myself on how Juno is so good. More important than Rieekan? Uhm... I don't think so...
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:44 pm
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Ok whatever you want guys. I'm sorry, I guess I completely misunderstand the top levels of the game as it's passed me by. I don't have time to argue stupid points.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:46 pm
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You do have time, though. I see it on Facebook every day LOL. :P
Relax, man. :)
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:36 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
You do have time, though. I see it on Facebook every day LOL. :P
Relax, man. :)
:lol:
Bill's latest version seems to be good for everybody. I'd like to see at least one more test with Rebels, but I think we're actually about done with this guy.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:19 pm
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Shhhhh...I'm breaking out the secret weapon on this one! Here's my Epic squad for tomorrow.
--Ray's Epic Skirmish--
154 Luke Skywalker, First of the New Order
67 Galen Marek
61 Cade Skywalker, Bounty Hunter
55 Master Kota
39 HK-47, Assassin Droid
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
20 Princess Leia
20 Yoda, Force Spirit
18 C-3PO and R2-D2
14 General Rieekan
8 Juno Eclipse
9 Mouse Droid x3
5 Camaasi Noble
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
Accurate shot, Triple Disruptive, lots of shooting, bonus for Dash, Cade, and the Uggies, Leia's CE for real fun with Galen. Oh, yeah, it's going to be evil.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:36 am
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Quote:
cost 66
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Rapport - juno eclipse cost 1 less in a squad with this character.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
after discussions with a couple of playtesters i think this is his sweet spot. The 66 prevents Darth vader agent of evil swapping via palleaon and opens up some tier 2 squad builds
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen MarekPostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:46 pm
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Quote:
cost 66
HP 140
Def 20
Att 14
Dmg 20
Unique (counts as a character whos name contains vaders apprentice)
Affinity (imperial)
Melee attack
Double Attack
Twin attack
Force Fury 19 - when this character damages a non-unique character with a targetted force power he rolls a die, on a natural 19 or 20 that character is defeated.
Rapport - juno eclipse cost 1 less in a squad with this character.
Force 2
Force renewal 1
Lightsaber block
Force repulse 4 - (replaces attacks; 40 dmg to all characters within 4 squares. Push back Huge or smaller characters to 4 squares from this character)
Force Pull 3 (force 3 - replace turn: range 6, move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack on that enemy at +4 attack and +10 damage.)
Door Shatter 1 (force 1 - replace attacks: range 6 - designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed)
Force lightning 2
after discussions with a couple of playtesters i think this is his sweet spot. The 66 prevents Darth vader agent of evil swapping via palleaon and opens up some tier 2 squad builds
Done.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen Marek *PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:55 pm
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QC'd
Quote:
25/60
Galen Marek
cost 66
HP 140
DEF 20
ATK 14
DAM 20
Special Abilities
Unique [Counts as a character whose name contains Vader's Apprentice]
Melee Attack; Double Attack; Twin Attack
Affinity [May be in an Imperial squad]
Force Fury 19 [When this character damages a non-Unique character with a targeted Force power, roll a 20-sided die. On a roll of natural 19 or 20, that character is defeated.]
Rapport [Juno Eclipse costs 1 less when in the same squad as this character]
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 1
Door Shatter 1 [Force 1, replaces attacks: range 6; Designate 1 door as open; it remains open for the rest of the skirmish and cannot be closed]
Force Lightning 2 [Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 30 damage to 1 target and 2 characters adjacent to that target]
Force Pull 3 [Force 3, replaces turn: range 6; Move target large or smaller enemy adjacent to this character. Make an immediate attack against that enemy at +4 Attack and +10 Damage.]
Force Repulse 4 [Force 4, replaces attacks: 40 damage to all characters within 4 squares; push back Huge or smaller characters to 5 squares from this character]
Lightsaber Block [Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]
I reworded Force Fury slightly, replacing "dice" with "20-sided die" since that's the technical term ("dice" is plural of "die").
Just to check on Force Fury, we want it to work on your own characters as well, correct? I'm guessing so.
I also fixed an error in Force Repulse 4. It should push them back 5 squares, not 4.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen Marek *PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:56 pm
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you guessed correctly
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen Marek *PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:12 pm
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I believe this should be a thread we move after the set is released so that everyone can see how we had so many ideas, and disagreements, but it all came together wonderfully.
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Post subject: Re: 25. Galen Marek *PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:19 am
Imperial Dignitaries
Imperial Dignitaries
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:17 pm
Posts: 5083
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