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The Jedi Way Options
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:23:09 PM
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jak wrote:
DARPH NADER wrote:
Magnificent, a truly superlative effort!

BlooMilk to Weeks and the Design team for bringing this piece to the community!
AND the playtesters]


BlooMilk BlooMilk BlooMilk to the playtesters. Without them, this piece would not be done yet. Wink
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 6:17:24 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
I dont know how to feel about this piece.
I love RDE!!
I love teamwork (real Legacy feel to it)
Love the GMA/Force Leap combo

i do not like the idea that an Obi-Wan and Anakin can give a Mace Windu or Yoda (the grand master) a lightsaber style (as if they are training them).

I also do not like Soresu Style Mastery like at all. I wish he had Soresu, Djem So, and Lightsaber Block. This way Anakin's djem so is represented.

I love the idea that shooters have a huge disadvantage, but think its a little overboard tbh. I do not know the state of Standard, maybe this is absolutely necessary, but think it will be a large NPE for people who love shooters tbh. they whole livelihood will be destroyed.

It has already been play tested? did it lose to shooter heavy squads?
There are reasons for these factors.
The Duo originally had SSM and DjemSo style...but that was stronger vs melee figs and weaker vs shooters, which was exactly the opposite of Weeks' desire. However, Anakin was also adept with the Shien Style (free LS Reflect for 10dmg back), but SSM -and- Shien would've been too much vs shooters. So we found a middle ground with RDE. The Duo is very strong vs shooters (and the CE helps with that), and semi-decent vs melee figs. Defending against shooters within a Ysalamiri bubble isn't quite as bad as it could be, since RDE means they only need to roll 7+ to be safe.

Yes, we did several tests vs shooters. In fact, this just might be the most-tested piece in V-Set history! The Duo has a strong advantage vs shooter-only squads, is disadvantaged vs strong melee squads (Vong will be trouble!) and is about even vs the shooter-melee combo squads that used to be played.

When you say "Standard" I assume that you're talking about the competitive game, which is played at Regionals and Gencon. If so, then you are correct in your assumption; meta is extremely dominated by shooters right now, and it is nearly impossible to be competitive with a Jedi squad. Almost any other squad type can be played. So the Duo is specifically designed to challenge the shooter-dominated meta. Personally, I'm excited to play SWM again because of this piece!

As for boosting Yoda or Mace or others, try to think of it in terms of cost. An 85pt piece should be able to boost just about anything else on the board. And if someone wants to play the 100pt Yoda with the Duo, then they've got 15pts for tech (R2 and 2 Uggies).
SithBot
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 7:51:06 PM
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Considering Anakin is a melee duelist I do not see any reason why normal djem so couldn't be on there if Soresu was not Mastery. but if this piece is made for the purpose of destroying shooters chances, than it has done it's job ;)
I think that with Anakin in the mix a tad more offense is warranted, since he is, after all, Anakin

I love that the meta is trying to let melee users have a strong place.

My biggest issue is this. I am facing Anakin (on the piece), and am shooting Anakin. Anakin does not have Soresu Style Mastery...

My other issue is this
Obi-Wan: "Hey, Anakin, hold my hand we are about to jump exactly 25 feet."


I love love love RDE!! Standard has done a good job with that and with Teamwork, Kind of like Legacy's Attuned with the Force, which is one of my favorite ideas. Love it!

I also enjoy the Sweep ability on him, Fits nicely!
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:15:11 PM
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Great explanation and it really truly has a place in the game as melee continues to be one of the weaker builds in the game (other than Vong right now *shudder* so strong haha). My only weird thing is the having two characters on one large base being stuck side by side the whole game but the more I think about it the more I can be ok with the whole back to back fighting portrayal. And for such epic stats too
fingersandteeth
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:15:31 PM
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all the points brought up here, and many more were discussed. lots of suggested iterations. However, there was a very specific intent with this piece as Weeks pointed out so the end result is more towards cost and gameplay than theme.

It was competitive against top squads even when map was heavily against it. It does have several Achilles heels and it will be interesting to see if it has the intended effect of the meta in next years regional season.

In sealed, you get this piece, you probably win.
jen'ari
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 4:32:49 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
There are reasons for these factors.
The Duo originally had SSM and DjemSo style...but that was stronger vs melee figs and weaker vs shooters, which was exactly the opposite of Weeks' desire.
Soresu with RDE is still very effective towards shooters and djem so just helps liit one of his weaknesses.
thereisnotry wrote:
However, Anakin was also adept with the Shien Style (free LS Reflect for 10dmg back), but SSM -and- Shien would've been too much vs shooters. So we found a middle ground with RDE.
love RDE!, just dont like the super defensive feel Anakin has (point being, on this piece all I am seeing is a very good interpretation of Obi-Wan Kenobi)
thereisnotry wrote:
The Duo is very strong vs shooters (and the CE helps with that), and semi-decent vs melee figs. Defending against shooters within a Ysalamiri bubble isn't quite as bad as it could be, since RDE means they only need to roll 7+ to be safe.
super excited that it has a way of being effective against ysalamiri.
thereisnotry wrote:

Yes, we did several tests vs shooters. In fact, this just might be the most-tested piece in V-Set history! The Duo has a strong advantage vs shooter-only squads, is disadvantaged vs strong melee squads (Vong will be trouble!) and is about even vs the shooter-melee combo squads that used to be played.
Sweet! glad to hear it has been play tested alot!
thereisnotry wrote:

When you say "Standard" I assume that you're talking about the competitive game, which is played at Regionals and Gencon.
um wouldnt that be the definition?
thereisnotry wrote:
If so, then you are correct in your assumption; meta is extremely dominated by shooters right now, and it is nearly impossible to be competitive with a Jedi squad. Almost any other squad type can be played. So the Duo is specifically designed to challenge the shooter-dominated meta. Personally, I'm excited to play SWM again because of this piece!
glad you are excited to play again, i am excited about the possibility as well. I am just not excited about a duel combo piece in SWM. I know it fits other places, but it is a real problem in my opinion. I would much rather have two separate pieces that gain bonuses when adjacent. Like Sithbot said. I cant see Obi wan saying, Anakin lets jump that way!
Also, I am not seeing any Anakin on the piece. I am just seeing Obi-Wan. Granted I love new ideas I just think duo pieces are extremely hard to make in SWM. (Luke and Yoda being a good portrayal, but much easier when Yoda is on his back and only using force powers).
thereisnotry wrote:

As for boosting Yoda or Mace or others, try to think of it in terms of cost. An 85pt piece should be able to boost just about anything else on the board.
This is where my differences come in. I feel things should be as thematic as possible. Giving out Evade would make a lot more sense to me than a lightsaber style.
thereisnotry wrote:
And if someone wants to play the 100pt Yoda with the Duo, then they've got 15pts for tech (R2 and 2 Uggies).


All the time it is about, well if they want to do that than they......
Same when we had the discussion about Obi-Wan being in Sith. Well its ok because to do that you have to play a suck butt Ulic. It is just not cool to have the opportunity of Obi-Wan being in Sith. Just like here it is not cool that Obi-Wan or Anakin can teach Mace Windu Soresu. Mace WIndu is one bad dude, kind of this, I do things my way when it gets down to it kind of attitude.

Anyway, I love alot of the piece and love RDE my favorite thing I have seen in a while and seriously, will probably use some variant or just it itself in "Legacy" pieces
Weeks
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 4:41:23 AM
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If it helps think of the duo as still really young Anakin. He's just sticking next to Obi because he's learning still. Once we dropped djem so that's how I imagined them.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 5:46:54 AM
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Don't burn your plasticrack hehe... shooters are still great!
Its an awesome piece... but, will not benefit from CEs, and will be a substantial part of a squad.
It could use "Impulsive Savage" as a drawback to lower the cost, along with Stubborn (can never benefit from CE's)
and maybe a range limit on the CE. I'd like this piece even more if it had a few drawbacks and was 70ish points. at 250, its still a huge chunk of your squad that you're sinking into these guys.
Shooters may have the edge still, and AoE/Direct Damage can still take this dynamic duo down...
and don't forget the Vong factor/force corruption factor... this can still be killed via attrition too.
BUT
that said, its a step in the awesome direction, and will give clone wars era players another piece to play a recreation scenario with.
I think this piece is awesome to represent the EpII-Tartakovsky Clone Wars period.
You could play this with the Jedi Guardians from Clone Strike, for fun times, or with the Knights from RotS...
or with the jedi instructor, healer, etc...
A'Sharad Hett becomes nasty with this, as does Quinlan Vos. which is good - they'll see more play locally.
Even Plo Koon or KiAdiMundi become playable again.

I hope we see a Luminara + Bariss, and a Shaak-Ti + Aayla Secura teamup card in the works.
Yoda + Mace would also be neat.

In terms of figures... we could take a leaf from W40K/LOTR games, and use the separate figures on a large-base joint base, that way you've got both separate figures or joined together.



How does "Teamwork" and Lightsaber Sweep work?
So, say I am on my turn, make triple mobile attack, and then I can sweep after?
That is nice, as is the ability to GMA AND Force Push.
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 9:23:35 AM
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It would be nice to have an inside the mind of the designers that included all the pertinent content in one package.
Perhaps the heated debate could be edited, but it does make reading Obi/Ani's development really exciting.
Mando
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 10:19:00 AM
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kobayashimaru wrote:


How does "Teamwork" and Lightsaber Sweep work?
So, say I am on my turn, make triple mobile attack, and then I can sweep after?
That is nice, as is the ability to GMA AND Force Push.


You would indeed be able to tripple with GMA and then use Lightsaber Sweep or Force Push 2 with Working Together. Or you could use Lightsaber Sweep and then use Lightsaber Sweep again with Working Together. There was one game where I playtested vs a ton of vong pieces and I did the double sweep and I think i did about 240 dmg total in that one activation.

As far as people bringing up representation of Anakin not being on the peice I want to point out a couple things:

1) Djem So was too good on it as it really made the peice good against melee and shooters, something which wasn't intended. We want to encourage people to play melee, and so the descision was made to drop it so that melee squads had the best opportunity to do well vs Obi/Ani.

2) I view the Lightsaber Sweep as representing Anakin and also the ability to do do another sweep again with him in Working Together as representing him to. There was an early version of Anakin that had Impulsive Sweep, and there hasn't ever been a republic Obi with it, so it makes sense that the Lightsaber sweep represents Anakin, as well as the Force Push 2 (General Skywalker). So 2 of the Force powers on the piece are from Anakin and one is from Obi (Force Leap).

3) I always viewed this piece as when they were boarding Grievous's Ship and taking down tons of battle droids. Hence their really good defenses against shooters. But also as Weeks said, it could be viewed as when a young anakin was with Obi Wan and they were working together.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 11:09:57 AM
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As you can see already in this thread, there are differing opinions on many aspects of this piece. It is an extreme piece, there is no doubt about that. That tends to cause polarizing opinions. Some will completely love this piece. Others will absolutely hate it. Thus is the nature of minis design in general, and the more a piece pushes the envelope, the more that viewpoints will be opposing.

Effects on the meta are always very hard to predict.

Will people play this piece? I have no doubt.

Will it dramatically shift the meta? Remains to be seen.

I am genuinely interested to see in what ways this piece does effect the meta.

There are several other pieces in the set that directly and subtly aid melee. So if a shift in that direction happens, it will be hard to tell how much inpact each specific piece has.

This piece was extremely hard to try and get balanced. It's true that it was playtested many times, but that was over the course of many many iterations. The final version was playtested a few of times. And as always, nobody knows what the best squad with Ani-Wan (Or is it Obi-Kin?) is yet. I suspect there are synergies out there not yet explored. And it's doubtful there will be ONE best build. Certain builds will be dominant against certain squad types and not as effective against others.

Map rolls will loom large when playing this figure, or against it. Some maps put them at a huge disadvantage, being a large base melee piece. Other maps allow them to use their large base and insanely good defense as a big advantage.

I do like how excited many people are about this piece. If it reinvigorates community members that have been waining, than that is certainly a good thing. Though this piece will undoubtedly turn some people off, it's all of our hopes that it is less than the number of people it excites.

I truly am fascinated to see how this piece is played, how it's combated, and what effect it has. You get to a certain point designing any piece (especially ones where the envelope is being pushed) where you just have to let go and release the fig and see what happens.

There are several pieces in vset 10 along with this one that I am axiously awaiting to see how they are recieved. The true indication will be over the next several months to a few years before we can really see. Hindsight is always 20/20, but accurately predicting future metas and the effect of extreme pieces is nebulous at best.

Can't wait to see what the future brings.
Mando
Posted: Saturday, April 18, 2015 6:46:00 PM
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There is one piece in particular in this upcoming set that will completely make shooter squads scared. That piece paired with Obi/Ani is the absolute best anti shooter squad yet in this game. There is enough variety also with squads that include this pieces that it makes for some interesting squads builds.

From what I'm seeing, for the most part people love what this peice brings to the game. The only things that I've read so far that people don't quite like is that the card doesn't fit Anakin's character as much (djem so) as it does Obi-wan's (SSM). Ultimately a design choice had to be made, and Weeks wanted this piece to be strong vs shooters. If it had Djem So, it would decidedly have a huge advantage over other melee squads, and thus the Jedi squads we have been trying to promote and get back in the meta would severely suffer when going against Obi/Ani. I hope everone can see the reasoning behind this. I was one of the proponents for removing djem so from the earlier iterations, but would have been fine with having Riposte instead to represent Anakin (but also to protect against Lancers), but space on the card prevented us from putting to much on it and I'm really happy with how this piece turned out. Major props go to Weeks for giving us this amazing figure and a lot of credit goes to all the rest of the designers as well for working together to get this piece made.
Lou
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 5:25:56 PM
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I think that ani-obi will be helpful for melee but shooters are so much better then melee it will not fix the issue we have in our game. Plus they cost so much you will have to choose between door control or support units.
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 7:27:38 PM
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@mando,
thanks for explaining how Teamwork functions;
having played this with "Darth Tyrannus/Count Dooku Unleashed", at 250,
its a great piece! Djem So would break this character - I think its pretty awesome where its at right now.
Some people suggested the ability to split up the Ani-Obi duo to them separately when at half health...
I felt that a great idea for houserules, but a little complicated to keep track of.
The idea being, while at full health, they can form a duo, and at half or less, they can split up. (similar to the bodyguard droid being replaced by the damaged bodyguard droid when defeated).

This is a fun piece - I don't see shooters being entirely nerfed - this isn't GOWK 2.0 heh BigGrin
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 7:51:04 PM
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I like what David and the design team have done here despite the fact that the squad that I ran in NY is a shooter squad with no force users. Having viable jedi squads in competitive play again is important. (Even if it sends me back to the drawing board lol.)

Keep in mind that when designing a piece for competitive play that sometimes theme and flavor must take a back seat to playability. I'd much rather see a piece like this that doesn't quite hit the mark thematically but puts jedi in the mix of things. Theme and flavor priorities are just fine in other formats.
Weeks
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 3:27:19 AM
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kobayashimaru wrote:
@mando,
thanks for explaining how Teamwork functions;
having played this with "Darth Tyrannus/Count Dooku Unleashed", at 250,
its a great piece! Djem So would break this character - I think its pretty awesome where its at right now.
Some people suggested the ability to split up the Ani-Obi duo to them separately when at half health...
I felt that a great idea for houserules, but a little complicated to keep track of.
The idea being, while at full health, they can form a duo, and at half or less, they can split up. (similar to the bodyguard droid being replaced by the damaged bodyguard droid when defeated).

This is a fun piece - I don't see shooters being entirely nerfed - this isn't GOWK 2.0 heh BigGrin


I would have liked to have an ability like this but there just isn't room on the card :).
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 6:44:36 AM
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One more comment about flavor:
Anakin was a practitioner of the Shien Style (free LS Reflect to send 10dmg back to the shooter). The designers thought that giving the Duo SSM -and- Shien would've been too much, which is how Ranged Defense Expert was born, because it represents the Shien abilities that Anakin brought to the table. So really, RDE is quite flavorful...it's a reflection (pardon the pun) of Shien Style, which Wookieepedia says that Anakin practiced.

Furthermore, RDE is a cool ability that can be used again, and that's always a bonus.
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, May 1, 2015 7:00:35 AM
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The question was asked in another thread which mini people are going to use to represent the Dynamic Duo.

To make this mini, I was planning to un-base a large mini and then re-base these figs onto it:




The mini represents them at the beginning of the RotS movie, and these minis are of from that movie so they're the logical choice, IMHO.
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