Got some time at work:

Poggle-same as spry
Mace-same as spry
CDO-hit with BAN stick
Panaka/theed- drop rapport and twin
Atton Rand- drop avoid defeat this guy is already one of best shooters in game and can stand to lose this
pellaeon- drop ysalamari-no need for possbile double bubble in imps or 16 point pieces negating force users.
Klat ASS- lower attack, change to stealth and bump cost up a few
All sith force spirits--- tag that they cannot be transferred into or given muur talisman
Neo Trooper Officer- whole new commander effect.
Padawan commander- not work with deathshots.

Poggle, Mace, CDO, Panaka of Theed as stated.

Soresu Style Mastery back to the first change

Ysalamiri to whatever would be better

Suppressive Fire to have a save of 11

Bastila to have a range on her Force Power

Klat Assassin to cost 17 (cost ? OR drop cloaked for stealth)

1. Poggle. Self Destruct 20, to Self Destruct 10, and do away with Rapport.
2. Neo Crusader Officer's CE changed to followers instead of allies
3. Yun Ne'Shel Priest (See post below)

I took these straight from Mando because me and him are on the same page so far.

4. CDO drop Fire Control, I would probably drop the Movement SA from them, just because of how good those BX Droids are. Change CE to where it only works on WoTC Commando Droids. I'm still not sure why this thing needs a decent attack, 70 hp, 20dmg, and twin though.
5. Bastila's ABM shuts off at the end of the round instead of at the start of her next turn.
6. Klat's need to have Cloaked changed to Stealth
7. Mace lose Flurry
8. Padawan commander- not work with deathshots
9. Atton doesn't need Avoid Defeat
10. Lose the Avoid Defeat commander effect in the vong. That paired with +4 saves isn't a good idea.
11. Soresu Style Mastery back to save of 11 against non melee characters.

I am on board with just about all of the ideas that have been presented above, the one that I agree with the most is...
12. Panaka/theed- drop rapport and twin (Deathshots should just be hated out of the game altogether. If the idea is to encourage engagement, why are we punishing gamers for engaging. This is a no brainer, and I have been a strong supporter in this since the Deathshots came out)

Here are a few changes I've had on my mind over the years:

Poggle--Lose Rapport. Change SD20 to SD10.

Mace Critdu--Lose Flurry and drop the cost by 5pts.

Panaka of Theed--Lose Rapport, no matter what. Possibly change the CE to "Allies whose names contain Naboo gain Wall Climber and Cunning Attack." Or something.

Klat Assassin--A number of options could work:
1) Increase cost to 16/17, (maybe increase HP to 40 because it's hard to justify a 30hp piece that costs 16?),
2) change Cloaked to Stealth,
3) Lose Jedi Hatred,
4) SD 20 becomes SD 10,
5) lower Att to +8 or +10, rather than +12.
Personally, I think that a combo of #2 and #5 is best, though #1 could work well if they're gonna keep Cloaked. #s 3-5 are options that could make a bit of a difference, but alone will not be enough.

Basilla JM--ABM does ONE of the following, but not both: boardwide Disruptive or +10 dmg. Perhaps let the player choose which one it will be. Several people have suggested that she could start the match with 1 less FP, and that seems like a good idea to me too. If she starts with 1 FP less, then perhaps ABM could stay as it is.

Darth Zannah--remove Lightsaber Combat Expert.

Commando Droid Officer--Coordinated Movement and all aspects of the CE now specifically work only on "allies NAMED Commando Droid..." (and so no benefit to other CDOs or even to the BX Spotter/Sniper). As a person who was on this design team, I can absolutely say that this piece's purpose was only to help make the old WotC Commando Droids playable, so that the Seps didn't always default to the IG-86 for shooters. With these changes the CDOs are still really strong at 22pts, but it is useless to spam them and they only help the overcosted pieces they were intended to help, so it's all good.


And if we're allowed to touch the WotC pieces:
Gha Nacht: Lose Rapport with pieces costing less than 4pts. No more 2pt pieces. Rapport is a great SA, but we have seen that it is broken when it creates 2pt pieces; maybe the simplest thing is to just change the wording of the Rapport SA, rather than making Errata on these specific cards (Gha and Poggle).

Mouse Droid: Gain the following SA: "Diminutive: This piece does not block LOS or provide cover. Whenever a larger piece enters this piece's space, the owner of this piece moves it to an adjacent space."

@TINT good call on Lightsaber Combat Expert, and I'm also right there with you on Gha. I like the idea for the mouse as well.

I wanted to clear up my thoughts on an earlier statement I made about Yun Ne'Shel Priest. My issue isn't really with the Priest as it is with a combination of things right now in Vong. I have an issue with Domain Lah Warriors having a speed 8, twin, being able to run 16 squares smack you for 20dmg a pop. Have Evade, Crab Armor. Be able to collect gambit. If they begin adjacent to you, they can double twin you. Oh, AND they have a plus 4 to saves on top of all of that.

So it's really a combination of Domain Shai giving them Charging and Double. The plus 4 to save rolls, while handing out Avoid Defeat. Saves of 7 on an Avoid Defeat is something I just cannot get on board with. Avoid Defeat is strong enough as is.

For me those 10pt pieces have too much going on for them. Way too much. Oh and I almost forgot, they have Force Immunity.

Melee Vong with all the tools you mention were still not even really considered competitive before the DS Warrior. He was the piece of the puzzle that kinda broke the combo so to speak. Well undercosted.

The DS Subaltern is clearly good - but priced accurately IMO. It's the cheap speedy warriors that are the issue.

But I ultimately agree with Trevor. Not to the point of needing errata. It's more like a good lesson for future design.

As far as the priest, the +4 to saves is not the issue. It's Avoid defeat (and the +4 compounds that). With a little luck a Vong player could live through several "defeats", and that could be a GIANT swing in the game.

If we were to errata anything in Vong - my vote would be drop giving avoid defeat via the priest.

I agree on some of these, but have different Views on a few also:






The CDO i feel Different about, I think it needs a cost increase to about 26 or so. Coordinated Movement could go, But i think Fire Control is one of the main reasons to play it. I like that part. You could change the Free attack to only Commando Droids, Which would work too.

I'd actually be fine with it then. My big issue is that it's a free ability that you can't get around by being aggressive, so it encourages staying far away and locking doors. But encourage opponents to get adjacent - then it's win/win

I'm not going to weigh in on all of these, mostly because of lack of experience with them, but just a couple of random thoughts:

I'm actually kinda okay with SSM - Now take this long rant with a grain of salt, because I've never played against SSM, and GOWK is my favorite (and currently best) piece. But, I have used Gowk A LOT. It seems like the characters that have SSM are mostly defense-oriented and not that dangerous themselves anyways. GOWK has an awesome commander effect, but it's only slightly better than Grand Master Yoda with Mas Amedda, and his damage output is pitiful. Zannah is also good at not dying, but (like GOWK) her offense is limited to two attacks or an expensive and unwieldy Force power. The other two Republic Obi's have limited FP, no Master of the Force, and still only one of those can get past 40 damage. Old Ben is awesome, but can't reroll, and is 100 points so he's not undercosted anyways.

And if the meta shifts back to melee, these characters (with the exception of Zannah) will be mostly defenseless against melee: Obi-Wan, Jedi Negotiator would then be a 62-points beatstick without melee defense. SSM was factored into the design of these characters when they were made, so LSBlock/Parry/Makashi/etc. were unnecessary at the time. Anyways, there's still a bazillion different ways to counter it - direct damage, Makashi, Overwhelming Force, etc. So, errata'ing SSM would result in:

GOWK: 55 points for a cool CE (that again, can be almost perfectly copied by GM Yoda and Mas) and some good ranged defense. Solid stat line, but will go down quickly to melee (read: any self-respecting Sith Lord can take him down in 1.5 turns)

Zannah: Still annoying, probably would be the least affected by the change, but still won't last as long against melee.

Flobi: 66-point commander with Flight. Surprise move with Flight can keep your opponent from setting up a big triple sith rage on him, but he still doesn't have near the toe-to-toe beatdown capability that a 66-point Jedi should have.

Obi-Wan, Jedi Negotiator: 62 point beatstick without Melee defense (Agg. Negotiations helps, but does it help enough?).

Old Ben: 100 point jedi with NO melee defense.

If SSM is errata'd, I think it should include in the glossary that characters with it also have Lightsaber Block. That's my main beef with changing SSM: 5 expensive Jedi, who were known for their dueling capabilities, have no melee defense.

Now, I don't have any real stake in whether or not this happens: I don't go to tournaments, and my playgroup is fine with SSM the way it is, so take this all as just some thoughts on the issue from someone who won't really be affected by it anyways.

Critdu - I know he's a little over-the-top, but I like the idea of the super-flurry. If you read about Vaapad on Wookieepedia, it seems much more in line with the flavor of the style to keep Flurry and leave out the triple damage on crits.

With all of the tank-hate out there (rigged detonators, suppressive fire, crack shot, ysalamiri, brutal strike, OWF), SSM does -not- need to be nerfed. Can anyone mention a squad with SSM that is doing well these days?