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Inspired by TheHutts Rolling Mini of the Day thread, I decided to review squads. I'll try to do a couple per week if I can. In order to talk about the squads, though, I think it's important to define some terms first. Auto-loss: Squad A gets an auto-loss from Squad B if Squad B is expected beat Squad A nearly all of the time (95%+), when used by equally skilled players. Tough match-up: Squad A faces a tough match-up against Squad B if Squad B is expected to win at least 2/3 of the time when used by equally skilled players. (Virtually every squad has a tough match-up.) Tier 1: A strong squad that is a legitimate contender for a Large Championship. It probably has no auto-losses within Tier 1, but if it does it has just as many auto-wins within Tier 1/1.5. Due to its strength, it is likely to be seen at a Large Championship. Tier 1.5: Generally weaker than Tier 1 and/or may have an auto-loss or two within Tier 1/1.5 (without a counterbalancing auto-win). But it could still win a Large Championship if it avoids its auto-loss. There is a good chance that this squad appears in a Large Tournament. Tier 2: Can beat some or even many Tier 1/1.5 squads, but has more bad matchups than good matchups and may have multiple auto-losses. Unlikely to be used at a Large Tournament by a serious competitor. A squad that has a sub-optimal piece as its focus, but tries to get the most it can out of that piece, is likely to wind up at this level. Tier 3: A pure hate squad may be found at this level. But other than pure hate squads, these squads generally cannot compete with any Tier 1 squads. A squad built with the restrictions of a specific theme or scenario, but is optimized for that theme/scenario, is likely to wind up at this level. Tier 4 (and below): Squads at this level and below are simply bad from a competitive standpoint. They may be thematic squads with no regard given to the strength of the pieces in the squad. Or the squad may be intentionally built using severe restrictions that do not allow any good pieces. Or they are completely random squads. Or they are built to be bad on purpose. In any case, squads down at this level will get an auto-loss to virtually any Tier 1, 1.5, or even Tier 2 squad. Gatekeeper: A Tier 1 or 1.5 squad that is likely to deal your squad an auto-loss if you do not take it into consideration. Rock/Paper/Scissors: General categorization of the squad as one that has one or two main attackers, is a swarm squad, or spreads out its damage to kill swarms. (Or is a balance among those options.) “Rock” damage: A grade to reflect the maximum amount of damage one character can put onto another character in one turn. “Paper” damage: A grade to reflect the number of distinct damage dealers in a squad. (This generally ignores commanders who are not likely to be in the fight and scrubs like Ugnaughts.) “Scissors” damage: A grade to reflect the ways that the squad can damage many enemies in the same turn/round. (See this thread for more discussion about Rock/Paper/Scissors.) (If you'd like to debate definitions, please start a new thread instead of debating them here.)
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It's only fitting to begin with last year's GenCon champion. --Professor Luke's Art Class-- 48 Luke Skywalker, Galactic Hero 29 Ganner Rhysode 27 Lobot 23 Anakin Solo 23 Jarael 21 Marn Hierogryph 9 General Dodonna 8 R7 Astromech Droid 6 Mouse Droid x2 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2 (200pts. 12 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/126639/professor-lukes-art-classSquadbuilder: sephiroth99is PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Balanced. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Balanced between Melee and Direct Damage. Minimal shooting. Defense: Balanced. Luke has Lightsaber Defense. Jarael has Evade/Parry. Ganner has Stealth. This is not really a tank squad, but Jarael could prove to be annoying enough that it feels like it. Overall, decent defense against either shooters or melee. General strategy: Marn and Lobot allow for extreme flexibility, which is one of the squad’s strengths. But in general, Lobot brings in a Felucian. Ganner lobs the Felucian forward to ping things until the enemy is forced to kill him. Ganner lobs Anakin forward for Unleash the Force. Jarael with Evade/Parry is interference until all that happens. Ganner, Jarael, and Luke clean up. Up to 21 activations plus Dodonna means this squad out-activates the majority of opponents. Match-ups: Can a squad be Extremely Balanced? Is that a thing? If so, this is probably the squad. As a consequence, I don't see it having many (possibly any) auto-wins or auto-losses. Bribery/Con Artist means every game will be very different depending on who the opponent is. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: B+ 120 damage in one turn from Luke, but requires special circumstances (Ataru and Jedi Hunter) “Paper” damage: B 5 different damage dealers in the base squad. Option to bring in one or two more with reinforcements. “Scissors” damage: B+ Anakin’s Unleash the Force. Luke’s LST 3. Ganner’s Lightsaber Sweep. Movement breakers: A Levitation. Knight Speed. Speed 8. Flexibility: A+ Lobot and Marn provide unparalleled flexibility. Overall Grade: Tier 1. This is the GenCon 2013 winner. What did you expect?
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Great idea! I will follow this for sure!
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Let's step back to 2012. --This Party's Over-- 65 Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi 33 Captain Rex 27 Lobot 9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid 5 Rodian Diplomat 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2 (200pts. 8 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/114392/this-partys-overSquadbuilder: thereisnotry Trevor won GenCon with this build, but Mace/GOWK is a popular combination. First squad in the squadbuilder with this combination is Weeks. Hinkbert had a lot of success with Homicidal Mace: Mace/GOWK/Evazan. PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Extreme Rock. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Melee with a shooter as a secondary option. Defense: GOWK is a tank with SSM/Mettle, and he grants +4 Defense to the rest of the squad. Mace has LS Reflect, but his real defense is just that 26 defense statistic after the boost from GOWK. 30 in cover. Rex's defense is staying out of line of sight with GMA. As long as you have a high enough attack, though, Mace goes down quickly, and Rex falls quickly once you catch him. General strategy: Mace kills things. GOWK is melee interference for Rex. Plenty of tactical decisions to be made, but the overall strategy is to kill stuff with Mace. Match-ups: Mace excels at dealing out major damage to a single piece. As such swarm squads will be a difficult match-up. GOWK is a great tank with SSM, but squads with Overwhelming Force-type options will make him far less useful. Mace dominates most melee match-ups. Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith looks like a piece made specifically to counter GOWK/Mace, though. Scissors squads or any squad that forgets to bring direct damage can have a really hard time against GOWK/Mace. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: A+ No limit on how much damage can be put out if Mace keeps rolling crits. 80 damage max from Rex. “Paper” damage: C- 3 different damage dealers in the base squad, but heavily skewed to one of them. Option to bring in one or two more with reinforcements. Dr. Evazan, Galactic Criminal was the most popular choice for a 4th damage dealer, and he also served as a healer. (GOWK and Mace both have MotF2, so Evazan rarely fails to heal them.) “Scissors” damage: C- GOWK has Force Push 3. GMA/Double from Rex. GMA/Triple from Mace. But the best option for scissors-damage is probably to bring in Momaw Nadon with Lobot. Movement breakers: A Doombot. GMA on the two main attackers. Both Jedi have MotF2, and GOWK has Knight Speed, which gives them a much larger threat range. Flexibility: A- Lobot gets you an A- all by himself. Overall Grade: Tier 1.5 This is the GenCon 2012 winner, so it was pretty clearly Tier 1 at one point. Does it hold up? I think so. The swarms that have emerged may be tough match-ups, but most of them have attack ratings that max out around 15. That makes it tough to hit Mace in cover. And if GOWK is in front, his defense can withstand a whole lot. Mace stands a chance against them, even if it's a tough match-up. There may be an auto-loss, though, when facing a Daala swarm with Major General Veers. Combining fire to negate SSM and to make it more likely the attack hits. But this squad has enough auto-wins to make up for something like that. EDIT: I forgot about the Force bubbles. With Imperials and Talon Karrde playing bigger roles, some of the tough match-ups turn into auto-losses, which bumps this squad down to Tier 1.5.
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Good review, made me have a lot more respect for mace squads and their strategy.
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Going into the 2012 Championship, I knew that the Naboo Deathshot squads (esp with Naboo Pilots) would be a major problem for me, but fortunately for me, Hinkbert took care of those (he had Mace/GOWK and a Gungan Shieldbearer). I also would've likely had a rough time against Stealth 'n Blue, with Cad Bane shooting from Ysalamiri. One of my closest matches was in the 4th round of Swiss, against Gerry's Naboo Troopers; his guys usually needed 13+ to hit my guys, and he didn't get the dice...and then when he did get some damage through, I just healed via Evazan. It was definitely a fun squad to play; I love it when Jedi "feel" like the imposing defensive masters that they are described as in the SW stories.
However, in the meta we have now (which does not have much room for the high-hp beasts that Mace loves to wreck), I don't really think that Mace/GOWK have what it takes anymore.
Furthermore, most Daala squads have Pellaeon, which will cause major problems for the tanks' ability to tank. That matchup will require GOWK having consistently amazing SSM dice. Assuming that shots come with Force Immunity, it will statistically take 6 40dmg hits to kill GOWK (failing 50% of his SSM saves). I just don't see how Mace/GOWK can win that matchup, outside of insane dice. If you bring a Shieldbearer (difficult to fit in), then you're looking at needing 12 hits (with 50% of the troopers failing their Shield saves and dying), which is a decent option. However, you've still got the rest of the squads in the meta to worry about, so the Shieldbearer isn't necessarily a great choice from that perspective. And I'm still not sure how they'd handle Talon/Zam/Klats very reliably.
For quite a while, I remember people talking about how Mace/GOWK were broken...but now I think it would be a significant accomplishment to just go 2-2 at a Regional tournament with them. The game has shifted.
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atmsalad wrote:Good review, made me have a lot more respect for mace squads and their strategy. Yes, there is a LOT more to running GOWK/Mace than just tossing them out there and hoping for good dice. Anyone who thinks that is the case just blatantly does not know how to play them. Timing is critical, as is odds-calculation and tactics. I did have a ridiculous turn of luck in the quarterfinals vs Deri (Mace rolled 3 17s in a row vs a full-health Corran Horn on a LS Riposte), but I don't remember any other games where the dice saved my butt in a game that I should've lost.
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I don't know why I keep forgetting about the Force bubble. I guess because it just doesn't come up often for me. I don't always have it, and my opponent runs a lot of shooters where it makes no difference. That does turn several tough match-ups into auto-losses. Enough that I'm going to downgrade them to Tier 1.5.
I was going to call Tantives an auto-loss, but with the high defense and SSM, there's a chance the Jedi live through the onslaught.
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I think 1.5 is about right. Without Ysalamiri in the meta I think they might be on the outside edge of Tier 1, since very few people are playing tank-busters these days (since tanks aren't being played these days).
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Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
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sephiroth99is wrote:Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
LST3 ignores cover, and UtF doesn't target. Both can hit multiple targets as well as LS Sweep. It may not have an advantage over Daala/Klats (not sure), but I think it would be in the game.
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FlyingArrow wrote:sephiroth99is wrote:Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
LST3 ignores cover, and UtF doesn't target. Both can hit multiple targets as well as LS Sweep. It may not have an advantage over Daala/Klats (not sure), but I think it would be in the game. Yes I agree. I think Luke's Art Class may still be pretty good even though it wasn't 'made' to counter the specific builds that are hot right now. I would say it still has a chance. Klats would be easier to beat than Daala with this squad.
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Deathwielded wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:sephiroth99is wrote:Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
LST3 ignores cover, and UtF doesn't target. Both can hit multiple targets as well as LS Sweep. It may not have an advantage over Daala/Klats (not sure), but I think it would be in the game. Yes I agree. I think Luke's Art Class may still be pretty good even though it wasn't 'made' to counter the specific builds that are hot right now. I would say it still has a chance. Klats would be easier to beat than Daala with this squad. I'm not so sure that it would have an advantage over klats. The klats do have ysalamiri going for them, which counters both UTF and LST3. If you send someone in to go after talon, the klats will kill that piece, and ysalamiri will still be in effect.
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thereisnotry wrote:Deathwielded wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:sephiroth99is wrote:Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
LST3 ignores cover, and UtF doesn't target. Both can hit multiple targets as well as LS Sweep. It may not have an advantage over Daala/Klats (not sure), but I think it would be in the game. Yes I agree. I think Luke's Art Class may still be pretty good even though it wasn't 'made' to counter the specific builds that are hot right now. I would say it still has a chance. Klats would be easier to beat than Daala with this squad. I'm not so sure that it would have an advantage over klats. The klats do have ysalamiri going for them, which counters both UTF and LST3. If you send someone in to go after talon, the klats will kill that piece, and ysalamiri will still be in effect. If you are outside the Force bubble you can throw into it and since LST3 is just sight, it isn't too hard too work around Ysalamiri.
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AndyHatton wrote:thereisnotry wrote:Deathwielded wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:sephiroth99is wrote:Great write ups! Well done. Not sure how well Luke's Art Class would do in the current meta. Doesn't seem to have good answers to Daala and Talon squads. On the right map (Spynet) with some good rolling, it might still be competitive. Hard to say.
LST3 ignores cover, and UtF doesn't target. Both can hit multiple targets as well as LS Sweep. It may not have an advantage over Daala/Klats (not sure), but I think it would be in the game. Yes I agree. I think Luke's Art Class may still be pretty good even though it wasn't 'made' to counter the specific builds that are hot right now. I would say it still has a chance. Klats would be easier to beat than Daala with this squad. I'm not so sure that it would have an advantage over klats. The klats do have ysalamiri going for them, which counters both UTF and LST3. If you send someone in to go after talon, the klats will kill that piece, and ysalamiri will still be in effect. If you are outside the Force bubble you can throw into it and since LST3 is just sight, it isn't too hard too work around Ysalamiri. So can you force push, repulse or grip a person in the ysalamiri bubble?
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No... those abilities target the person who is damaged. Lightsaber Assault targets the person using it... it then generates normal attacks. The person in the Force bubble is targeted by those normal attacks (not by the Force power). Not sure if Lightsaber Throw works like Lightsaber Assault in that regard... there's a list around somewhere. Edit: AndyHatton is right. You can throw into the Force bubble. Here is the list: http://www.swmgamers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1953
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Let's step back to 2011. --Bastilla's Battlemasters 2.0-- 33 Bastila Shan, Jedi Master 81 Jedi Battlemaster x3 27 Jedi Seer 27 Lobot 14 Old Republic Senator 8 R7 Astromech Droid 6 Mouse Droid x2 3 Ugnaught Demolitionist (199pts. 11 activations) http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/100191/bastillas-battlemasters-2-0Squadbuilder: Jester007 Ian won GenCon with this build. A build with multiple Battlemasters is sometimes called "OR Beef", and several people have built squads with variants of that name and multiple Battlemasters. PROFILERock/Paper/Scissors: Moderate Rock. Melee/NonMelee/Direct Damage: Pure Melee, but Lobot could bring in a secondary shooter. Defense: The Battlemasters have a great HP/Cost ratio and also come with Block/Deflect and 4 force points. 23 defense with either cover or LS Duelist gives them a good defense, too. The Jedi Seer provides Lancer protection. General strategy: Advance carefully and then engage with 60dmg Lightsaber Assaults. Use the Senator to give another 30dmg shot each round. Match-ups: The Battlemasters can deal out 60 per turn. As such, they match up well against swarms of mid-teen pieces. Pieces in that cost range tend to have 50-60hp, and a Battlemaster can take them out in one turn. With 110hp, the Battlemasters can usually survive multiple attacks from pieces in that point range. This is a relatively balanced squad, so it is at a disadvantage to many extreme squads. Being all Melee without a mass killer, it has a strong disadvantage against shooting swarms. Being a 'Rock' squad, it is also at a disadvantage against the 'bigger rock' squads such as Mace/GOWK. The balance does mean that most disadvantages are only disadvantages and not auto-losses. ABM is automatically a huge advantage against any CE-dependent squad. REPORT CARD“Rock” damage: B 60dmg per turn plus a bonus attack in the same phase = 90dmg per phase potential from a Battlemaster. All 3 could possibly attack the same character, but that takes more time/effort to set up. “Paper” damage: B The Battle Masters + Seer make for 4 different damage dealers. Bastila is a 5th once she stops ABM, and Lobot can bring in a 6th if needed. “Scissors” damage: C+ The best option for scissors-damage is probably to bring in Momaw Nadon with Lobot. 4 other damage dealers lets them spread the damage around some over the course of a round, but they don't have any special abilities to get multiple threats all at once. Movement breakers: C+ Surprise move on the Seer. Force Leap on the Battlemasters. The Senator is a sort of movement breaker in the sense that a character can still move double-speed and attack in the same phase. Force points give all of the characters a slightly increased range. Bastila cancels swap to level the field against some other movement breakers. But overall, not a terribly mobile squad, especially for being Melee. Flexibility: A- Lobot gets you an A- all by himself. Overall Grade: Tier 2 This is the GenCon 2011 winner, so it was pretty clearly Tier 1 at one point. Does it hold up? I don't think so. This squad came before the release of Atton "Jaq" Rand, and that piece would be a pretty clear upgrade in this squad. Would that upgrade (swapping out a Battlemaster and door control to make room) put the squad back to Tier 1? The Daala and Talon+Klat swarms that have emerged tend to do their best against squads just like this. Multiple Melee attackers without much scissors-damage. With those swarms clearly in Tier 1, this squad has a very bad match-up and possibly an auto-loss there, particularly with the Lightsaber Assaults/Deflect canceled by Force bubbles. I don't see enough good match-ups/auto-wins to make up for it and push this squad back up to Tier 1.
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That was the year that I was running my Vong spit with Cad Bane squad. I remember thinking that I would have crushed this squad if I had faced it. Instead I got matched up against 3 IG swarms that year and had nothing to deal with the droids at that time. I had such high expectations for that year only to be let down. And no I don't think this squad is T1 anymore at all.
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The seer got a line of mention but it was a big roadblock for this squad and a large part of the strategy during advancement.
Advancement to gambit would generally be out of LOS with the Seer creating problems for anything moving into squares around doors with 30dmg jedi reflexes hits. This made it hard for Yobuck and lancers but also for a lot of figures trying to get at Bastilla.
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I so would've beaten it too were it not for a stupid 1 :( lol
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