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How is the team tournament scored? Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:00:37 PM
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So - if your team wins 2 games and loses 1 against an opponent, is that a 2pt win? And if you sweep it's a 3pt win?

In individual games how do 2pt wins vs 3pt wins factor in? Do they at all?
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014 5:53:55 PM
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I would assume you would score points for each game, so you could score anywhere from zero (if u got swept) to 9 if you won all 3.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2014 6:54:10 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
I would assume you would score points for each game, so you could score anywhere from zero (if u got swept) to 9 if you won all 3.


That opens up a whole new can of worms then.

So is it purely score, or is there a "win" and a "loss" for each round?

In other words, can you be 1-1 with 12 points? Or 2-0 with 8 points?



Also - you said you assume. So who decides this?
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2014 10:20:56 PM
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I guess what I assumed was that the losing team would get zero, and the winning team would get from between 4 and 9 depending on the results of the games.

And yes this could result in a crazy outcome where one team sweeps with all 3 pt wins and gets 9 points and then loses next round so is 1-1 with 9 pts, and another team could win both rounds but be behind because they could not get full wins and only won 2 of each of the 3 matchups so had 4 pt "wins" in both rounds and be 2-0 with only 8 pts.

I know in the past it was just number of games won was your points, but that always seemed to me to be a weird way to do it since it makes the actual individual games worth one each and doesn't reward teams for getting complete victories rather than playing to be ahead at the end of time.

But since we (the player base) are running this so we can decide the scoring to be however we want. So if anyone has any thoughts throw them out. I presume that whoever ends up running the tourney would have final say, but I'll see if I can get James to come along and make a comment with his thoughts.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:19:37 PM
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Here are my thoughts:

If you SIMPLY need to score more points than your opponent (ie, a tie-breaker win) in order to help your team, then people will be content to play for a tiebreaker (ie, a points win). And that will lead to the same problems that we had before, which was non-engagement and games ending in a score of 25-20.

But if we use the 3-2-0 scoring system for EACH game that is played, it will always be in your (and your team's) best interest to push for a full 3pt win every time.

Therefore, I think that the best way to do the scoring is to use the 3-2-0 scoring system for the team tournament. This means that your team could have anywhere from 6-9 pts if it wins all 3 of its games in its match-up against another team (and it'll have 4-6pts if it wins 2 of its 3 games). If we keep full wins (ie, 3pt wins) as the focus of each match, then I think we'll find that our games are more exciting and full of engagement.

Tie-breakers after total points could then be wins, then head-to-head, then SoS, then ... as normal.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 1:06:42 PM
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And actually, thinking about this more, using the 3-2-0 scoring system for the team tournament would allow the losing team to still score points (2 or 3), even if it lost the overall matchup. The closest possible score after a matchup between 2 teams would be 4-3, with the winning team scoring two partial victories and the losing team scoring one full win. Therefore, as we've seen with the 3-2-0 scoring system, taking a loss will not necessarily keep you from winning first place. And that's a good thing!

So it would be possible that a team that scores only 3pt wins and yet loses some of its matches might do better than a team that wins all of its matches, but only with 2pt wins.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:37:59 PM
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I think team record should be the primary criterion with points earned as a tiebreaker.
urbanjedi
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 8:35:48 PM
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As I said before, it doesn't really make sense for the losing team to get any points, and I like the idea of using the 3-2 scoring system for each game because (as trevor pointed out) we want to encourage engagement.

Sthlrd2
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 4:04:58 AM
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But then it doesn't feel like a team tournament. There has to be some sort of points scored for your team going 3-0 or 2-1. With points earned in individual matches as a tie breaker, that still pushes for engagement and full victories, because you want your team to have the best chance at winning. If you go 3-0 with everyone getting a full 3pnt win, then that's the best you can get and you did everything you could to your team advancing.

I agree with TJ, team record should be the primary criterion with individual points as the first tie breaker. As a proposal,
If your team goes 3-0 you get 3 pnts. If your team goes 2-1, then you get 2. And your team gets 1 for going 1-3. This focus's on the team aspect while still allowing lots of different options to tie so your individual points still are important. If your team goes 3-0 every round, then it might not matter which it shouldn't if your team went undefeated throughout the tourney.

On a side note. The unique rule does apply to all teammates, correct? So only 1 of your members can have a Lobot? I have not played in the years past, but I believe that this is the way it was handled. Just to verify as this effects a lot in terms of squad building.
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 5:59:12 AM
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Sure, I'm fine with using W-L as the primary marker (each win by a player on your team gives your team a point in the standings), with total pts (up to 9 per team matchup) being the first tie-breaker. It's largely a "six of one, a half-dozen of the other" kind of thing.

My only concern is that we do everything we can to avoid games being decided by tiebreakers, and therefore I think we should use the 3-2-0 scoring system for the individual games.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:04:44 AM
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I would picture each match between teams as the primary record. So regardless of whether you win with 3 full wins or with 2 wins that both are on points, you still win the match. But everybody records points for wins as the tiebreaker. So for a match, the final score might be 9-0 or 4-3, but in either case the winning team records a match win. Then the scoreboard would look something like football. In this case Team A beat Team D with 3 full wins and Team B beat Team C win 2 wins on points while Team C had one full win:

Team A 1-0 PF: 9 PA: 0
Team B 1-0 PF: 4 PA: 3
Team C 0-1 PF: 3 PA: 4
Team D 0-1 PF: 0 PA: 9

Then suppose Team B beats Team D, 2 games to 1 with all 3 games on points. And Team C beats Team A, 2 games to 1 with all 3 games full wins. Then the standings would be:

Team B 2-0 PF: 8 PA: 5
Team A 1-1 PF: 12 PA: 6
Team C 1-1 PF: 9 PA: 7
Team D 0-1 PF: 2 PA: 13

(Just throwing out thoughts, as requested.)
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:23:10 AM
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Yep, I can work with that. It seems like a good system to me. As long as everything is clarified even 10 seconds before the tournament begins, I think it'll be fine. I think we've given the powers-that-be plenty of info to go on when making their decision.
urbanjedi
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:30:28 AM
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Sthlrd2 wrote:


On a side note. The unique rule does apply to all teammates, correct? So only 1 of your members can have a Lobot? I have not played in the years past, but I believe that this is the way it was handled. Just to verify as this effects a lot in terms of squad building.


Each player on the team must use a different faction. Each team can only have 1 total instance of a unique so if 1 player runs Boba Fett, then no other team member can run any version of Boba Fett. In the pregame setup, each team captain will roll. High roll can choose to pick the first matchup or defer that choice to the other team. One team will determine first matchup, then the other team will determine the other 2 matchups.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:59:37 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
I would picture each match between teams as the primary record. So regardless of whether you win with 3 full wins or with 2 wins that both are on points, you still win the match. But everybody records points for wins as the tiebreaker. So for a match, the final score might be 9-0 or 4-3, but in either case the winning team records a match win. Then the scoreboard would look something like football. In this case Team A beat Team D with 3 full wins and Team B beat Team C win 2 wins on points while Team C had one full win:

Team A 1-0 PF: 9 PA: 0
Team B 1-0 PF: 4 PA: 3
Team C 0-1 PF: 3 PA: 4
Team D 0-1 PF: 0 PA: 9

Then suppose Team B beats Team D, 2 games to 1 with all 3 games on points. And Team C beats Team A, 2 games to 1 with all 3 games full wins. Then the standings would be:

Team B 2-0 PF: 8 PA: 5
Team A 1-1 PF: 12 PA: 6
Team C 1-1 PF: 9 PA: 7
Team D 0-1 PF: 2 PA: 13

(Just throwing out thoughts, as requested.)


My thoughts are along the lines of TJ's, but slightly different. (BTW - TJ - in your system, what use is PA? It seems to have no bearing, other than just a side stat)

As I was thinking about this - our current rules structure is perfect for this tournament.

Standings
Standings in a tournament, for declaring a tournament winner, shall be determined by match points. In the event of multiple players being tied for match points the following shall be used to determine the final standings:

1. Match Win Points – The player with the most match points.

2. Match Win Percentage – The player with the highest match winning percentage. (In other words, record)

3. Completed Victories – The player with highest number completed victories during the tournament (games in which 3 match points were achieved) (3 pt victories)

4. Head to Head Matchups – The player who has won any head to head matchups would be ahead of the loser in a head to head matchup.

5. Opponents Match Win Percentage – The player with the highest opponent match winning percentage.


So - in a team tournament, we'll have our team score (if you win all 3 matches, or 2/3 matches vs another team) then it's a W in the record column. This is #2 in our scoring system.

Match win points will be 3/2 based on if you won 3 games or 2 out of 3 games. This relates to #1 in our scoring system.

But then the 3rd category - complete wins comes into play too! We keep track of full wins, and EVERYBODY (winning and losing teams) keep track of this.


So - it would look like this:

Team A beats Team B 2 out of 3 games, with both 2 pt victories, while team B gets a full victory on the third
Team C beats team D all 3 games, with 2/3 being full victories.

Record:
Team C: 1-0, 3 points, (2 complete victories)
Team A: 1-0, 2 points, (0 complete victories)
Team B: 0-1, 0 points, (1 complete victory)
Team D: 0-1, 0 points, (0 complete victories)

So - in a "smaller" tournament such as this (I think there might be only 4-6 teams max) record really weighs the heaviest. I think this is appropriate for a TEAM tournament. If you beat all the other teams - you win. Regardless of anything else, and I think that IS the way it should be.

Then having the 3/2 system remain a 3/2 system means no surprises. We know this system, and the numbers work. Expanding this category directly relating it to full victories literally means everything is multiplied by three. This could make for massive swings. Besides - we don't need it here, because the very next category in our already existing system . . .

IS completed victories! So this becomes the tiebreaker, as it should be!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:00:46 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
(BTW - TJ - in your system, what use is PA? It seems to have no bearing, other than just a side stat)


Good point - I just had it there because they put it there in football standings, where it's mainly just to show relative strength of teams. (Although it is one of the deeep tiebreakers that probably has never been used.)
Sthlrd2
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 7:53:06 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:

So - it would look like this:

Team A beats Team B 2 out of 3 games, with both 2 pt victories, while team B gets a full victory on the third
Team C beats team D all 3 games, with 2/3 being full victories.

Record:
Team C: 1-0, 3 points, (2 complete victories)
Team A: 1-0, 2 points, (0 complete victories)
Team B: 0-1, 1 points, (1 complete victory)
Team D: 0-1, 0 points, (0 complete victories)


This was my proposal. The only difference between yours and mine is that Team B would have 1 point as opposed to 0 with yours. Team B probably worked very hard for that 1 win and thus should get a point.
3-2-0 in individual matchups.
1 point for each team member victory.
urbanjedi
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:30:24 PM
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I still don't see what the problem is with scoring each game like normal and having the winning team get the total number of points they earned.

3-0 with all 3pt wins would be 9 points.
2-1 with 2 2pt wins (or tiebreak wins) would be 4 pts.
1-2 (or 0-3) would be zero points as your team lost

This seems like it would be very east to implement and would give us the best representation of how a team was doing. It would make it very team oriented as if your team lost you would get zero points. It puts an emphasis on your team winning and the players on your team getting complete victories. It also has the added bonus that since there will be likely be very few teams, it will keep it from being just a straight single elim. For instance your team could still win if it got beat in one of the rounds if it swept and had complete victories in the other two rounds.

TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:00:39 PM
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How many teams will there be? This is important - we need an exact number. And we should be able to know this, since the event will sell out. Nearly there already.

How many tickets were available?
urbanjedi
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:28:23 PM
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12 tickets were available.

However, I assume that if another team (or 2) shows up to play that we will try and figure out a way to get them in.
urbanjedi
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:32:54 PM
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Because I also have no idea if the tickets that have been purchased so far have been bought in groups of 3. I know that Laura, Lou, and myself all bought our tickets together but no idea if other teams have done so.
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