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It is time to start thinking about raising gambit. Options
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, July 6, 2014 6:42:31 PM
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With paper squads ruling the meta and rock squads almost completely disappearing games are becoming more and more frustrating. I have been to two tournaments this year and I practice often. In my limited expirience it seams that rounds are taking way to long and I know that there are plenty of players that feel the same. In the convorsations I have had with people the best solution I could come up with, without limiting the number of acts in a squad, would be to increase the amount of points you can recieve from gambit.

If gambit was increased to 10; the result would be that you couldn't get gambit with a good amount of the favored pieces in most swarm squads. Ie tantives, snow troopers, naboo and such. The value of the pieces worth more than 10 just went up because you reduced the amount that can recieve gambit. You just put swarm squads at a little bit of a disadvantage because it is harder for them to get gambit now. Also, now players have to risk a higher point piece if they want gambit. I would even be open to the idea of gambit being 15 points.

Currently we have the either destroy your opponents squad or get to 200 first. Well I personally have never seen someone do one without the other. What's the point of that rule if you can't get a 200 point win without destroying your opponent? Increasing gambit would bring that strategy back into the game, or possibly even into the game since it hasn't seam to ever make much difference. I could be wrong on that.

What are your guys thoughts on this? Please keep the discussion friendly and I am not opposed to talking about this over a private message if you so wish.
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, July 6, 2014 6:51:03 PM
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Without thinking too deeply, I actually think it sounds like a really good idea.

I assume 5 point pieces getting gambit is around from when 100 points was the dominant format - so for 200 points, it makes sense that you need a 10 point piece to get gambit.
CorranHornsux123
Posted: Sunday, July 6, 2014 7:50:02 PM
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I agree with Hutts
engineer
Posted: Sunday, July 6, 2014 8:26:42 PM
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Maybe a ten point gambit is the way to go.

I think the real issue is 61-58 or 8-5 scoring games. If this game was not so far along, the 5-3-1 scoring system is really nice. It works with eight person tournies also.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 2:45:21 AM
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10 points does make sense. At least IMO.

I Am also a fan of the 3-2-1 Scoring idea. I know it has worked in new Zealand and i like the way it works. IT tends to give people even more push to finish with 3 point wins, when their oponent is going to get a point also, that can catch up to them with tie breakers.
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 2:48:42 AM
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In a 200pt game where a 5pt character can move 12 squares, attack at +20 for 40 damage... perhaps 5pts for an end of round gambit is out of date. We should playtest that with several squadtypes and collect some data.

5pt gambit was introduced during the 100 point format to discourage the turtling/ lockout wins of that day.
However, people found a way around that, as ANY piece could be used to score gambit.
The tactic was, out-activate, get gambit with an ugg brought in with Lobot, win init and then run it away 12 squares.
Repeat each round and force the opponent to engage while also earning gambit points.

It wasn't until 200 point format that gambit became restricted to only 5+ point pieces and no reinforcements.
However, 200 point format had the even bigger problem of slowplay, so 3 and 2 point wins were introduced.
This made gambit very important towards a 2 point win in a close game, but not so important towards a 3 point win.
Who has time to worry about 5pts of gambit when your trying to destroy your opponents entire squad?!

Last rounds playing Jason K in Chicago Regional it was obvious he would win, but I still had lots of commanders in the backfield and he didn't have much time left on the clock to finish me off. We both were playing large swarm squads, I had Dalaa snowtroopers and he had Vong. I could have tried to forced him to come after me and give him in 2 point win. Instead, I ran pieces out 12 squares for him to pick off. When I extended my hand while i still had pieces on the board and said "congrats" he looked surprised, I reminded him how many snowtroopers he killed earlier and that with gambit he had just reached 200 points.

The point of my story is that when going for a 3 we don't think much about gambit because it seems insignificant.
It's "200 for a 3" and gambit does contribute to that 200, but players only really focus on gambit in close low scoring games.
If gambit were 10 points then the average gambit would be 40-50 points? About a quarter of the points needed to reach 200.
Then in my game with Jason he would have reached 200 at least a round earlier, even if I had tried to run and hide from him.
jak
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 7:16:29 AM
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gambit should be a bonus for moving towards the enemy, if the points are to high, it may effect the
outcome more than killing the enemy.
LEAVE IT BE sez I
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 7:18:28 AM
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Personally, I'd rather see an activation limit, but I've said that before and it hasn't happened, so I do think there is something to be said for finding other options to encourage faster engagement.

-I really like the 5-3-1 idea, so that full wins become more important.
-Bigger gambit is also a good idea.
juice man
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 8:07:16 AM
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jak wrote:
gambit should be a bonus for moving towards the enemy, if the points are to high, it may effect the
outcome more than killing the enemy.
LEAVE IT BE sez I
How about moving gambit so it's 2/3 toward your opponent instead of 1/2? I like the 5\3\1 scoring idea.
harryg
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 8:10:05 AM
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DarkDracul wrote:
In a 200pt game where a 5pt character can move 12 squares, attack at +20 for 40 damage... perhaps 5pts for an end of round gambit is out of date. We should playtest that with several squadtypes and collect some data.

5pt gambit was introduced during the 100 point format to discourage the turtling/ lockout wins of that day.
However, people found a way around that, as ANY piece could be used to score gambit.
The tactic was, out-activate, get gambit with an ugg brought in with Lobot, win init and then run it away 12 squares.
Repeat each round and force the opponent to engage while also earning gambit points.

It wasn't until 200 point format that gambit became restricted to only 5+ point pieces and no reinforcements.
However, 200 point format had the even bigger problem of slowplay, so 3 and 2 point wins were introduced.
This made gambit very important towards a 2 point win in a close game, but not so important towards a 3 point win.
Who has time to worry about 5pts of gambit when your trying to destroy your opponents entire squad?!

Last rounds playing Jason K in Chicago Regional it was obvious he would win, but I still had lots of commanders in the backfield and he didn't have much time left on the clock to finish me off. We both were playing large swarm squads, I had Dalaa snowtroopers and he had Vong. I could have tried to forced him to come after me and give him in 2 point win. Instead, I ran pieces out 12 squares for him to pick off. When I extended my hand while i still had pieces on the board and said "congrats" he looked surprised, I reminded him how many snowtroopers he killed earlier and that with gambit he had just reached 200 points.

The point of my story is that when going for a 3 we don't think much about gambit because it seems insignificant.
It's "200 for a 3" and gambit does contribute to that 200, but players only really focus on gambit in close low scoring games.
If gambit were 10 points then the average gambit would be 40-50 points? About a quarter of the points needed to reach 200.
Then in my game with Jason he would have reached 200 at least a round earlier, even if I had tried to run and hide from him.

Assuming the 5 point piece you mean is the Snowtrooper, It can't get gambit because I think it's printed cost that matters. Regardless I think 10 points for gambit is fair, because there are a lot of 5 point diplomats out there not to mention tantives. If you let the tantive live it gets gambit. If you kill it, they get a cannon shot. Lose-lose situation for you.
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 12:28:45 PM
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jak wrote:
gambit should be a bonus for moving towards the enemy, if the points are to high, it may effect the
outcome more than killing the enemy.
LEAVE IT BE sez I

But does the current 5pt gambit really promote moving towards the enemy?
When a player with a large squad has a 20-30pt lead they don't need to come after you because your in gambit.
They estimate how many rounds remain and know you need 4-6 more rounds of gambit just to catch up to them in points.
While they can always grab 5 points of gambit at the end of a round with a 5pt piece.
Also, the large squad slows the game down to fewer rounds of gambit.

In the current game 7 or 8 rounds is fast = 40 gambit points max
An average game is 6 rounds = 30 gambit points max
A "regular" game may only take 5 rounds to complete = 25 gambit points max
Slow played games and games with large swarm squads go to 4 rounds = 20 gambit points max
Really slow played games go 3 rounds = 15 gambit points max (A judge really should be notified when this happens.)

10 pt Gambit.

7-8 rounds = 80 points max
6 rounds = 60 points max
5 rounds = 50 points max
4 rounds = 40 points max
3 rounds = 30 points max

thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 6:23:45 PM
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Personally, I like the chess-clock option: each player has 30 minutes to play. Once they reach 30 minutes, their pieces all spin (or don't do anything) for the rest of the match. I know it's obviously not going to happen, but I think it would finally do SOMETHING to prevent the NPE that is slow play and stall-tactics.
Mando
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 7:39:33 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Personally, I like the chess-clock option: each player has 30 minutes to play. Once they reach 30 minutes, their pieces all spin (or don't do anything) for the rest of the match. I know it's obviously not going to happen, but I think it would finally do SOMETHING to prevent the NPE that is slow play and stall-tactics.


Ever since San Hill appeared, large activation squads have been a NPE. I think maybe if we had more SA's that target the specific CE would be helpful. The Mando's got such a piece, although it is hardly included in many top tier mando squads currently. The game grinds to a mind numbingly slow halt when your opponent has 30 drones and he is trying to position them all so they don't blow each other while activating them one at a time. These kind of squads are bad for the game, IMO. I think future pieces should be designed to discourage this type of squad build, other than starfe/gallop. It seems that in tournament play, the player using a squad with tons of activations are favored to win most of the time and make it to the finals, not the player with a 10-18 activation squad not relying on activation control. Gallop and Strafe are effective, but they can be countered also now a lot more effectively than in the past. I like the idea of an activation limit, but at the same time I am wary to implement that cause swarms do have a place in the game. I just think activation control is the main issue and it needs to be dealt with.
General_Grievous
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 7:56:50 PM
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Definitely in favour of increasing gambit to require a 10 point piece or higher
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 8:40:09 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:
Personally, I like the chess-clock option: each player has 30 minutes to play. Once they reach 30 minutes, their pieces all spin (or don't do anything) for the rest of the match. I know it's obviously not going to happen, but I think it would finally do SOMETHING to prevent the NPE that is slow play and stall-tactics.


That may be a great idea for some, but we want to encourage new players, not frustrate the heck out of them because they keep losing their games because they run out of time. It is definitely a good way to stop slow playing, but I wouldn't want to play a game like that. Also what about save rolls? Attacks of opportunity? Technically those are still on one players turn, but it is the other player doing them. The game isn't structured to work that way and in the end I think it would hurt not help it.
theultrastar
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 9:42:18 PM
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I love the idea of bumping Gambit up to 10. While I am not a fan of slow play and yes it is a NPE, a chess clock is not the way to go. As atmsalad says we don't want to frustrate the heck out of a potential new player.

And as far as the scoring goes, I'm not really a big fan of a 5-3-1 scoring system. Here is why. My first tournament I ever went to I played my best friend in the opening round in Virginia. Less that 30 minutes in he concedes, now in a 5-3-1 scoring system I can report that I got the full win but he got 100 to help him out as well. It's a system that is asking to be abused.
urbanjedi
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 10:30:20 PM
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5/3/1 is what X-wing uses. Not the 3/2/1 that NZ uses.

X-wing scores
5 for a complete (or major victory)
3 for a modified win (won on time and less than 12 pts ahead)
1 for a tie (which would be really, really rare in swm)

DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, July 7, 2014 11:37:55 PM
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Mando wrote:
I like the idea of an activation limit, but at the same time I am wary to implement that cause swarms do have a place in the game. I just think activation control is the main issue and it needs to be dealt with.


Activation limits would be too difficult to keep track of. You would have to count how many activations you have left. For instance, if rounds were limited to 15 acts and I ran a 28 character squad, I would activate 15 characters and not activate 13 characters each round. But what if I ran something like Bastilla with over 15 characters? Could I turn on her ABM and leave it on all game just by not activating her again? Seems problematic.

I think the best answer is to set a maximum character limit on the base squad.
Then the contest to see who can build the largest sized squad could come to an end.
Players could count on swarms being generally restrained to a certain size.
It would be easier to build squads and prepare for different match ups with other squad types.

If the 200 point game were given a base-squad max of 18-16 characters...
A 23 character snowtrooper sqaud with 13 snowtroopers would need to lose 6-8 snowtroopers.
Now it has 7-5 snowtroopers and an open slot for a 30pt-40pt character in it's base squad.
It would start the game with 18-16 acts with Ozzel and could still bring in 8 more snowtroopers
during the game with reserves.. which seems to happen freakishly often.

Players could still use reinforcements to bring in free characters to boost their squad over 16 characters.
However, reinforcement counters like Bribery and Wuher would become more effective since squads were of reasonable size.

3-2-1 scoring, 10 point gambit, and a character limit on the base-squad
Perhaps all three should be added to the floor rules
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, July 8, 2014 2:47:29 AM
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DarkDracul wrote:
Mando wrote:
I like the idea of an activation limit, but at the same time I am wary to implement that cause swarms do have a place in the game. I just think activation control is the main issue and it needs to be dealt with.


Activation limits would be too difficult to keep track of. You would have to count how many activations you have left. For instance, if rounds were limited to 15 acts and I ran a 28 character squad, I would activate 15 characters and not activate 13 characters each round. But what if I ran something like Bastilla with over 15 characters? Could I turn on her ABM and leave it on all game just by not activating her again? Seems problematic.

I think the best answer is to set a maximum character limit on the base squad.
Then the contest to see who can build the largest sized squad could come to an end.
Players could count on swarms being generally restrained to a certain size.
It would be easier to build squads and prepare for different match ups with other squad types.

If the 200 point game were given a base-squad max of 18-16 characters...
A 23 character snowtrooper sqaud with 13 snowtroopers would need to lose 6-8 snowtroopers.
Now it has 7-5 snowtroopers and an open slot for a 30pt-40pt character in it's base squad.
It would start the game with 18-16 acts with Ozzel and could still bring in 8 more snowtroopers
during the game with reserves.. which seems to happen freakishly often.

Players could still use reinforcements to bring in free characters to boost their squad over 16 characters.
However, reinforcement counters like Bribery and Wuher would become more effective since squads were of reasonable size.

3-2-1 scoring, 10 point gambit, and a character limit on the base-squad
Perhaps all three should be added to the floor rules


It's not a bad idea, just maybe making it an even 20 characters max. I really enjoy playing swarms and other than Dalaa and Poggle bombs they aren't that amazing and get shut Down by Bastilla. I think more counters to the dominating hard swarms right now is what is needed. Like handing out free deflect to Jedi similar to the new Exile's CE.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, July 8, 2014 2:52:39 AM
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I like the 10pt gambit as well...good idea, OP. As far as the chess clock idea, while I like elements of that, the difference between chess and SWM is that the acting player in SWM doesn't make all of the decisions on his turn, unlike chess. Evade rolls, bodyguard decisions, spending force points are among many activities a player can make on his opponent's turn. That leads to time charged to the acting player sucked away by his opponent. If that situation could somehow be solved, then the chess clock option could be explored.
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