First off, I want this to be clear that I am in no way attacking any designer for making this piece. I understand the thought behind the design and applaud the need to address some issues the Vong had with this piece. I am a long time Vong player, and I realize not many people play Vong competitively. So I understand completely that a piece may not get playtested enough because most playtesters opt to test factions they play and are familiar with. I want to address a serious concern today that I am seeing with the special ability Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion on the Yun Ne'Shel priest. Here is the ability:

Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion (This character and each Yuuzhan Vong ally gets +4 to save rolls as long as it has another Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares)

The Yun Ne'Shel priest costs 13pts and also gives out Avoid Defeat to a follower. It also has Avoid defeat built into it. With Quoreal it can be brought in for 12pts and have Aggressive Negotiations.

I'd like to detail a little history on the ability to modify save rolls and its huge competitive advantage in this game.
-GOWK back in the day got banned because he had SSM, Mettle and Master of the Force 2. He became almost unkillable at the time.
-We can see how effective Exar Kun FS is by making opponents save -4. It has been tested a lot and has seen much success in competitive play.
-Survival Expert has been given to a few pieces in some factions, which functions as a +4 to all saves. This is a very good ability and it hasn't been given out a lot because it is acknowledged that because it is so good, factions with access to all the defensive abilities (force powers and SA's like Evade, Parry, SSM,Makashi) could become overpowered quickly. A piece that gets +4 to all saves with Survival Expert and has Evade can be tough to kill. The Rebel faction has the most access to this ability, but the pieces that can gain it don't have a lot of damage output and can be killed easily. The CE that grants Survival Expert can be countered with Bastilla/Disruptive so it isn't as hard to deal with competitively.
-Cade Skywalker prior to V-set 9 was the highest Hitpoint piece that could get +4 to all saves which made him tough to kill, but it was just on one figure and his damage output couldn't be boosted to do massive damage. To do this required Wolf Sazen, Jedi Master who costs 37pts in addition to the 54 pts for Cade Skywalker, Legacy of the Force.

With all this being said, I'd like to shift attention to the Yun Ne'Shel Priest.For 13pts (12 with Qoreal) it can give the ability to get +4 to all saves for the entire game. This can't be countered with Disruption or Bastilla, because it is a SA and has unlimited range due to the Yammosk. The priest can sit in the back and never come into combat, and even if you do get close to it to kill it, it gives itself +4 to saves on its Avoid Defeat needing only 2 7's. It can also give out Avoid Defeat to a follower (for example Tsavong Lah, Warrior Elite).

The Vong have for a long time been vulnerable to shooters. They excel at melee and reducing lots of damage with their VCA, but when it comes to shooters they die quickly. Attempts were made in the design process to adders this issue with a lot of success! Zenoc Quah gives Evade to all Vong followers. Nei Rin made it so if you failed a VCA save you could move 2 squares away while also giving +4 defense to Vong allies with VCA. These 2 figures properly address the concerns the Vong had with shooters in my opinion, but they didn't see much competitive play in regionals or in Gencon. Not many people play Vong, so this is understandable.

Now the Vong have really cheap access to a figure that gives +4 to all saves. Now a Vong squad with relative ease can get Zenoc Quah and a Yun Neshel Priest for 41pts total (40pts if you bring a Yun Ne'Shel in with Qoureal) granting Evade and +4 to all saves to all Vong followers, of which there are a lot of them. A lot of Vong followers also have VCA 6. Now the Vong followers with VCA 6 need to roll 7's to evade shots from non adjacent shooters, and need to roll only 2's for their VCA. To say it is difficult to take out a Vong at range currently with this combo, is a understatement. But that you can also give Avoid Defeat to a Vong follower and that also needs 7's to succeed makes it even more difficcult.

Last year I made a Vong squad I intended to bring to a regional, but due to schedule issues I wasn't able to go. I made it to fight against the current meta of Daala swarms, Naboo deathshots and a lot of other good shooter squads. I have modified it since the introduction of Vset 9 to be the following:
--Iron Sha'kels--
44 Commander Sha'kel
30 Shedao Shai
30 Supreme Overlord Quorreal
28 Zenoc Quah
27 Minos, Yuuzhan Vong Warrior
15 Yammosk War Coordinator
9 Praetorite Vong Scout
6 Advance Scout
5 Tso'asu
5 Zonoma Sekot Scout

Preferred Reinforcements:
(S. O. Quorreal) 13 Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
(S. O. Quorreal) 9 Dooje Brolo

(199pts. 12 activations)

The only 2 changes i made from the previous version was the option to bring in a High Bred Warrior and Ossus Guardian protector (which I still can do). Qorreal gives the squad options to deal with Self Destruct, swarms and focused attacks and Lancers. I made the squad to have insanely high defense so that shooter swarms with their generally low attack (Daala swarms are an exception with their high attacks) needed to roll very high to hit, and if they did hit, i had Evade. If they chose to ignore evade and shoot adjacent, i had Doctrine of Fear on Shakel to boost my chance of not being hit even higher. The squad has a movement breaker, activation control, door control, tanky pieces and protection against shooters. The damage output is a little low for a vong squad. Shakel can get to 80 dmg vs Jedi (60 vs non). Shedao Shai can get to 80 dmg vs jedi (40 vs non) and Minos can get to 80dmg vs Jedi (60 vs non). Shakel can give out his free attack to boost the damage output a lot more however. Generally non force users are in the lower range of HP, so doing 60 dmg to even a non force user is really good.

Now with the Yun Ne'Shel priest my Evade rolls need only be 7's. My VCA save need only be 2's. I can give Avoid Defeat to either Shedao Shai or Minos and make it so they only need 7's on Avoid Defeat. This Tank squad became just even more tanky to the point I am very concerned with the future of this Faction. This squad isn't the only good one either. There are lots of other reallly good squads that will incorporate the Yun Ne'Shel priest and Zenoc Quah. The only current competitive counter to both the Yun Ne'Shel priest and Zenoch Quah is Suppresive Fire, which is such a good ability that only 2 pieces have it. Ackbar can make it so if you combine fire you can avoid the shots also. If you bring in a piece with Disruptive, you only take away Evade and still have to deal with trying to land enough damage on a piece with VCA that needs 2's, 7's, or 12's to succeed based on all the different varriations. A good majority of Vong in competitive play have VCA 6 already. Now it is basically VCA 2.

This current problem is all possible, mind you, with a 13pt piece. I think this problem needs to be addressed before it ruins the meta with the Vong becoming overly dominant. If this piece had come out in the Rebel faction, or the New Republic faction, people would be seeing major problems in the meta. But the fact so few people play Vong, I'm afraid this piece has gone by unnoticed. People will still bring their non Vong faction squads to play at tournaments, but I can see the Yun Ne'shel peice becoming as huge a problem as Daala was or the Zygerian Slaver was. I hope you all can see the issues with this peice.

I want to encourage debate on this to see if this needs to be addressed or not. I love this game and thank the hard work the designers have put into making these sets. I again, want to emphasize that I am in no way attacking any designer for making this piece or any playtester for not seeing this issue. I think the thought behind the figure was well intentioned. The Yun Ne'Shel priest is a auto include in any competitive Vong build right now. It's just i think something was missed and now it will drastically effect the current meta but also the design of all future Vong peices made in V-sets. I put a lot of hours of thought before deciding to post this (its taken me 2 hours just to write it all out), because I'd hate to start another incident that caused outrage like Daala did before she was errata'd that would cause people to leave the game or decide to ban a piece from play.

I love this game and I love the V-sets! I want to see this game progress and be fun for all. The Yun Ne'Shel priest is a problem. It is such an easy piece to add to any Vong squad because it is so cheap for how much is brings to the faction. Any squad with Qoureal will bring in a Yun Ne'Shel priest almost 100% of the time.For me, the Yun Ne'Shel priest has become an unfortunate necessary evil that I feel I need to add to my squads to be the most competitive, but at the same time I feel really bad doing so because I'd hate to be my opponent that would have to deal the many more bad match ups this piece has created.

Sorry for the long read, but I needed to detail this out as best i could to draw attention to the issue.

Base and figure out how to get extra damage out to counter the Armor.

I am sorry but this is far different than other things. Also its only has 30 pts if you have speed you should be able to get there. Even if its in a corner.

Jake brings up another good point why not just take out the cheap guys meaning you have a 5-6 squad that is melee. We all know how to counter evade and Shields/Armor is far from a problem.

I do think there are better builds that can use the +4 save in a better way.

The problem I have is that you can just sit him in a corner. Yes 10 pt Gambit helps but still not a fan of the piece since my Gungans have no answer to counter this. I think making it a board wide problem and not cancelable is not right. Something that can have this big effect on the game needs to be in the battle field.

This is the problem I have had with commanders that they can just sit but at least they have a counter.

I didn't mention in my first post that you can also use Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion with Eminence Harrar who has the 2 folllowing abilities:
Yun-Harla Devotion (If this character would take damage from a nonadjacent attack, you may choose to roll a save of 11. On a success, select a Yuuzhan Vong ally within 6 squares to take the damage instead.)
Yun-Harla Sacrifice (Once per round, after initiative is determined, you may remove 1 adjacent Yuuzhan Vong ally without Shamed One from play. That ally is defeated and all other Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Yun-Harla Devotion for the rest of the round.)

So yes, you can do 30-40 dmg shots on a Vong and if you get past the Save 7's for Evade, you can just transfer the damage around to other Vong characters in your squad with a save of 7. You can sacracfice a Vong Worker easily enough that would cost only 3pts with Qourreal to get this to work.

Also, if you have Counterstrike in your squad, you need only to roll 7's in order to hit back after taking melee damage (Lancers are effectively countered this way) Vua Rapung can't get any stat boosts from Shaper or Scarification, but he can benefit from Yun-Ne'Shel Devotion and Yun Harla Devotion.

Depending on the game, you usually would have to only sacrafice a 2 or 3 in a game to give you 2 or 3 rounds of Yun-Harla Devotion which might not even be needed it a persons 30-40dmg shot doesn't get past the Evade roll of needing 7 or higher. All competitive Vong squads have Quoreal in it and can bring in a couple Workers and Zenoma Sekot scouts to help with Door Control and also activation control (and since they have Aggressive Negotiations they are hard to kill off). You would only need to use the Yun-Harla Devotion a few times in a match to shunt of damage to spread the damage out enough to make your main figures survive long enough to decide the game by killing the attacker. Vong have lots of hit points and the VCA makes it so they can take lots of hits. Harrar would be a competitive Tier 1 option i strongly beleive now that the Yun-Ne'Shel priest has been made and is in the meta.

The problem I have with this game is not everything has an answer.

FFG has stated that good board games try to make sure every ability has a answer in one shape or another.

I really think this is something that needs to be addressed with Minis. I am not talking about direct counters but there needs to be an answer other than speed to this figure. I am not seeing it.

I really dont like that it can give +4 saves for 13 points we all know how strong GOWK is with his +4 +4.

Thats way too strong without a way to counter.

Vong are strong enough to survive Disruptive. Their top tier pieces in the non swarm area have lots of HP and they have Shakel who's CE can't be disrupted, they can outactivate you with Quorreal (not sure how well Mando's would do against that) If you even had a Disruptive peice, that still doesn't gaurentee you will win because if you have Harrar you can just shunt the damage off to other peices in the squad with a save of 7. I really think it is too simple to say Disruptive kills them, because that only gets rid of Evade and you need to be withing 6 to even take it away. Sure you can do it, but then your guy with Disruptive is also within range of all the rest of the Vong melee beats that are boosted with SA's that don't require CE's to be effective. Not every faction has Disruptive also. There are only 16 pieces in the game currently that have it. 5 are in the NR (which is usually a good matchup for the Vong), 6 are in the Rebel faction, 3 are in the Fringe Faction. Vong have 1 and Mandalorians have 1. Of those peices only 7 (maybe 8) see use in competitive squads.

Disruptive helps, but its not the best counter to the Vong and it only going to be useful if you are running a shooter squad and even then only to a certain degree. Suppressive Fire is and it is only on 2 peices and it will probably stay that way because it is such a powerful ability. How about the people that want to run melee top tier squads? Should they just have to deal with the fact Vong are getting +4 to saves to shunt damage away or take 10 less dmg? There are examples you can give of pieces that have Disruptive and I can counter saying that those builds usually include a CE the Vong can take with the Yammosk and be even more effective (Dodonna's CE for example or if you have a Vong only squad then Talons CE).

If the Vong had been kept to just regular Evade without the +4 to saves the faction would be just fine. For 13pts the Yun Ne'Shel priest is way to good. Vong peices were priced to be what they were with their VCA factored in. If you take all those peices grant them VCA 2,7,12 respectively that makes their cost benefit rise a lot. 10 dmg reduction is still a lot even on a 50 hp piece, because now you'd need to deal it 3 seperate 30dmg shots just to kill it. Sure squads can get that much dmg per shot, but just how many shots are they going to want to spend to take out a piece that cost 10-20pts? Look at how much people are making a big deal about Sheilds 2 on the Republic Commando's for example! They need 2 saves of 11 and those pieces have 60-70 HP. If this piece had been made for the Republic, people would be really complaining a lot about the RC's and their Sheilds needing only saves of 7's.

You may have intended to help the non-swarm Vong survive, but you just made the Vong swarms in effect stronger since you have updgraded their VCA 11's to VCA 7's or their VCA 16's to VCA 12's. Have fun chewing through all that HP with dmg reduction. Harrar is the one that scares me the most of all the interactions with the Yun Ne'Shel priest because save 7's on shunting of damage 6 squares away is scary good and that can't be disrupted. So fire away with your shooters, because i can just distribute the damage amongst the peices in the squad withing 6 of whom your shooting (assuming you can also deal with the save 7's for Evade).

Then where were the Vong at Regionals and Gen Con? The Lah warriors are arguably the most competitive non swarm melee Vong squad right now and they have 40 hp which is not a lot in this power house meta. If they run up to Vindicated, they will lose evade, cunning and the +4 from Zenok. They have a 6 atk to hit Vindicated, and if they do then he can avoid 10 damage from Beskargam. I would say that more times than not they will miss the attack.

If you are running all Vong and play a Talon all fringe squad then only CE that you can steal is the movement breaker and not the +4,+10.

It's ok for other factions to have +4 to evade and then shoot back, but its not ok for an all melee faction to have +4 to saves. Its ok for Rebels to shoot me with cunning 20 twin before anyone activates and Jolt me. And if they win init then they can shoot again and Jolt someone else, if they survived the cunning 20 twin. Vong melee was non existent in competitive play for a reason. There is so much power out there in every other faction, but as soon as the Vong get something on there melee guys it not ok anymore? The RC's have more hp with 60, have 2 saves to reduce up to 20 with shields, can heal the damage they do take, and can shoot me for 30+.

There is a huge difference between factions. Your right that this piece would be way to good if this was in the Republic but just because it would be way too good in one faction, doesn't mean that it will be in another. Republic has big guns, Vong are melee. Comparing an ability by saying it would be way too good in a faction that plays totally different doesn't convince me in the least. I think the RC's will beat a melee Vong squad more times than not even with this guy, same for the all Fringe squad that won FrostyCon.

I have played my Vong squad without the Yun Ne'shel priest and have easily beaten the RC squad I faced. I outactivated it and Shakel used his CE to kill key pieces. With the Yun Ne'Shel priest in the mix, im even more confident I'd win in a matchup against the RC's.

The reason you didn't see many Vong in competitive play is because most people don't play Vong. When I listen on SHNN, most of the guys talking haven't had much experience running them. The Vong faction isn't something everyone likes, but it was really good prior to the Ne'Shel priest, people just never ran them a lot. Your example of Mandalore the Vindicated being hard to take down is assuming the Vong don't have Scarification and are relying on just Cunning Attack and the +4 attack from Zenoc Quah. A Vong squad will have both Shaper and Scarification and maybe also have Cunning attack. The Domain Lah Warriors have Synergy to get +4 attack also with Tsavong Lah (who costs only 28pts and would eat through Mandalores Beskargame with Yun-Yammka Devotion) making their attacks with Scarification to be +14 without CE's for 30dmg a hit. Mandalore's Beskargame will help, but not enough when he needs to roll 11's to lower the damage, compared to the Vong needing to roll much less to lower their dmg taken. Vong are much more all about their Special Abilities, not their CE's and Scarification and Shaper give them their damage and attack boosts a majority of the time. The various Devotions in the Vong Faction are also giving them huge advantages.

I like the Vong. IMHO, evading on a 7, while charging 16, just means they survive long enough to attack. At which point evade is useless.

Perhaps, let the season progress, and see if Dalaa-like rampages sweep the game.