So I have read/heard different people talk about how the "Hyper" competetive meta-game has a negative effect on the current state of minis and is the "real" issue that currently plagues the game. I would like to bring up this one quote in perticular.



Firstly, I want to make sure yall know I am not in the least bit agitated or upset, lol I just want yall to get where I am coming from. So... Picture me talking in a soft soothing voice like waves crashing over the sand with seagulls making noise in the far off distance. Got it? Great! Now that the disclaimer is out of the way.

I do not agree that using a piece to its full potential, within the constraints of the game, is in any way, shape or form distorting it. If a piece is not used for the purpose it was originally created, and is instead becoming "abused" in a different way than the designer ever intended, that piece simply needed better skulpting and was not ready to be put on display.

In a tournament setting do I seek to win at any way possible the fastest way possible? Yep! Sure do! Guilty, haha That is the type of player I am and that is the type of player I will always be. I keep playing this game because I love it, the community and the competition. If any of those three decreases then the whole SWM experience becomes much less enjoyable and you will probably see me bid adeau to the game. Seh la vie

If me, and the other "Hyper Competetive" players like me do ever leave, then I think the game will be much worse off. You need players like us to say, "That is abusable", "That is going to be to powerful", "You dont want to create that synergy", or "You dont want to make that, because then I can take Cad Bane, Bounty Hunter out of the squad I was originally going to run at gencon and gain an activation on top of being rid of most of the weaknesses the squad used to have." Lol

Our community is somewhat split into, in magic terms, those that want to play Standard... and those that want to play EDH. Which isnt a bad thing, but we need to make sure we arent stepping on each others toes and we support each other. Mate, if you want to run a rodian swarm then you run that blasted rodian swarm... but know that I am probably going to kick your butt, haha. Seriously though, lets balance the hyper competetive tournaments with the casual ones. :)

Thanks for sharing, atmsalad,
I don't feel there's any malady or invective/ad homenim there, merely an exchange of some ideas,
we're all freethinkers here,
and we can all engage in concrit and discussion of ideas.
if a cook couldn't handle the heat, they'd not dare go near a kitchen.
We all want SWMinis - whatever it is, whatever it becomes - to survive for a long time,
and we're all SciFi fans
if we didn't love those things, we wouldn't be here.
the internet is a big place for us after all?

I hope no misinterpretation occur of some words,
it is difficult to encapsulate the ephemeral, the intangible mentality of the strategymaker in the metagame,
so a shorthand maybe used, such as 'player to win', 'hyper' (meaning a frenetic pace of relentless withering fire and optimisation, autoloss for some squad types by turn 2, even in non-competitive play).

It is like, in First Person Shooter games, the griefer
those who camp and insta-spawn kill via TKO, or spam Nades or Bazookas... and claim that, since it is a DLC and part of the game architecture, then it is okay... as opposed to some hakks that input godmode or alter the aiming, which wasn't part of the architecture.
this is more what I reflect about the state of the meta in many geographic locations.

I don't own the internet, or SWMinis, that is part the point.
I cannot tell or compel anyone to play minis in any particular way.
You play a tournament that is NuTrekWars VSET only? awesome.
I play a tournament with "The Force" and Deity cards, QED
or dynamic duos etc.
Moreover,
I reflect on the trajectories I observe in the community,
the gaming culture and the mindset.
there's winning (TKO, machiavellian most expedient), and there's winning with goodsportspersonship, etc.
just as there is losing with dignity/discretion, and losing (flip the table, forfeit etc).
I reflect purely that, increasingly it seep into the competitive mindset,
which trickles down to other aspect of SWMinis.
"Win at all cost, optimise only".
Where is fun? it falls by the wastebin.

People try to morph and mutate SWMinis into MtG,
or the bad aspect of W40K gamer culture,
with fashions, and careful imbalances - and that feared futures is what I sound a note of caution about.
if I wanted expense and hobsons choices for what squads can be played with a prospect of less chance to autoloss,
squads/armies that win via a mountain of i-win technical effects and rules,
I'd play other games.
Its not a case of only 50pts being forced into meta-competitive protection at 250, its more like 150points has to be spent now to counter shooter squads or ridiculous movement/asymmetrical effect squads based around stacking janky CEs...
its not so much the stats that are the problem, it is the people looking to optimise and autowin which cause the cycle of that.
I don't want or think that SWMinis is NP-Complete (as with Chess or Checkers, so a limited amount of types and moves),
yet, I'd prefer to see more variety of some squads, but not too much the esoteric "i win" squads.
Shooters and direct damage power creep are expanding in the present meta continuity, and already there seep in the 'legacy format', some imbalance again - though the point standardisation system is a neat concept.
yet, Dynamic Duos goes well still, and some tournament at 150, 200 or 250 can still work.
Potato, Pohtahtoe,

as some suggest via inbox and other platform,
to each their own.
it would be unfortunate for anyone to mistake the present freethinking for anything other than what it is -
a reflection, a discussion, and a caution about the increasing optimisation-play to win tendency.
It does seem odd that, people can be ban for discussing some reservations or expressing/articulating what they see about the state of the game.

@Darth Jim,
thanks for some reflections there too.
I have said my piece on some perspectives, on gamermindset,
on those who shape what meta they will see,
and I take the hints and my leave on some topics

Well said, Jim. If this was FB I would Like that post.


I think there is no shame whatsoever in playing competitively. Actually, when I was playing in the Jedi Challenge last year someone gave me crap because I was playing a Tier 1 powerful squad and his squad was Tier 2 (at best), and I mopped the floor with him. I replied that I don't play in GenCon tournaments just to move minis around...I can do that at home with my kids whenever I want. Rather, I play in GenCon tournaments because I enjoy the competition. Win or lose, I want to be pushed to my limits and I find that enjoyable. That's where I'm coming from, and that's where the real "fun" of the game is for me.

Other people define "fun" in SWM differently, and that's fine with me. I don't think people are lesser or anything if their version of "fun" is different than mine...but I think it's legitimate to expect the same courtesy from others.

With GenCon coming up, I think it's worth mentioning one other thing when it comes to the level of competition you can expect in any given event: The bigger the prize, the higher the level of competition you can expect. If there's a sweet prize (like, for example, a Championship title or a full set of custom minis) for the top player in an event, then you shouldn't expect that people will bring their teddy graham squads.

In the end, this is a game that we all love. I hope that our different definitions of what is "fun" about it will not detract from our community or from our enjoyment of the game.

Years ago I went into the LGS which ran minis in the Wellington region and played one of their weekly tournaments. They did this every week, a bunch of folk would come in, pay $20, and be in to win a share of that in store credit. Usually, as I understand, it was 2nd made their money back and 1st got the rest. Anyhoo, Save11 was running but not at the heights it is now. We had tournaments and were getting bigger, we had a number of players and I was looking to link up with the work that this LGS was doing, so I took a coupl'a guys in and we ran. They were pre-Vsets, even though we were Vsetting pretty heavily (I think this was Vset1 era), but we were working with their rules and looking to promote Vsets and look to build both communities.

Eight of us signed up, three Save11'ers including myself, and five LGS'ers. That meant a three-round Swiss (pre-3-2-1 and even pre 3-1) to find the eventual winner - no finals. I decided to run Thrawn, Vader Scourge, Boba BH, Lobot and change - feelng a little out of sorts not being able to run Vset stuff. I wanted to represent and play hard, but had no plans to win - my goal was bridge building.

My first game was against the store owner, he was running a Grevious squad with a bunch of HK-50s. We played on Jedi Temple and we slunk around the middle, but occasionally shot at each other. He kept all his uniques hidden, so I struggled at to make headway as Boba was a little limited. Time was called and he was ahead by a fraction and I saw a move, swapped Vader in and Lightsaber Throw'd one of his HK's to take a minimal, but unassailable lead. He threw everything at my Vader, but couldn't hurt him so I won it by a handful of points... I wanna say 50-30 or something like that.

I felt stink. Winning like that is never really fun and I was wanting to play a "fun" game and the dancing around each other wasn't that much fun. I saw an opportunity and took it, but felt a little sheepish. Second game was against Robin - one of our guys - and it was a mirror match. I won it and we both ran each other head on, laughing the whole way. Fully fun.

That put me in the final match against another LGS'er and the winner would take the store credit. I was feeling still a little stink about edging out the store owner in such a fashion and didn't want to push this game too hard, but when I saw this guy's squad, my heart skipped a beat. He was running an 8-piece Republic squad with none of the big Republic pieces and - most importantly - no door control AT ALL. I had Lobot and brought in 2 R7s and won the game by opening a door, killing something, and closing a door. I know I had thought that I didn't want to go too hard out, but "proper gameplay" took over and I couldn't help but do it. During the one-sided game, the owner came over and asked the guy how the game was going. He replied that I was going to win it easily because he didn't have any door control and I had heaps. The store owner then said with a tone of arogant authority, "Yeah, but you know we only play for fun here," and I thought - you smarmy piece of work, you charge me $20 to play and then say its for "fun"? My misgiving over game 1 instantly disappeared, I cleaned up the game and took my store credit and that was that.

A coupl'a things. I found I couldn't turn off that competitive aspect of the game - I never play monopoly, or chess, or cards or whatever to lose and it is no different for SWM. AND, this is the big thing for me, door control is a basic part of the game! I demolished this poor guy... but that was just good play. My attitude as a player didn't change at all, and neither did my level of play.

It turned out that the LGS had been playing the same way for ages, and with no new pieces or outside competition, they were trying progressively weirder and weirder squads. This 8-piece squad with no notable pieces and no door control was symptomatic of where they were as a playgroup. Of all the people from that LGS that still play and get Vset pieces (they changed over the Vsets not long after), only one of them has started being involved with us. He is a good player, has an awesome attitude and is still the only player from the LGS that I've lost to.

I think the big thing for me is the definition of competition. I had a game once against someone where we were playing a Tusken squad vs. a Jawa squad (the battle for Tatooine, I guess), but even though the squads were Tier 7, we went hardcore at each other! Our play didn't change, or attitude didn't change, just we walked into the game building "fun" squads and playing them hard. I went into the LGS tournament thinking "oh, they're charging $20, this must be a big deal." I mean, I don't have $20 to just drop on a trip into Wellington (which is a small drive and a whole very late evening). The attitude of the store owner suggesting that I was being too over the top by playing door control made me mad because I hated the suggestion that I cheated and that my $20 should mean something other than my best. When we have our 100pt tourneys, I bring 100pts of crap-fun. When I run majors, I bring better. When I play, I gauge where I'm at, how many folk there will be and where I think I'd like to come in the field.

We don't have much in the way of issues with competitive vs non-competitive here in NZ. Mainly because I started the group with competition and stats in mind, so everyone knows what they're getting into. We have had a couple of people leave almost before they started because one of our more competitive players went a bit psycho on them, but we sorted that out pretty quick. Not sure what I'm trying to say other than giving a perspective - my own one - on the matter.

How much is that in American?

About US$15

I agree the that the game would be much worse off if the players that aren't competitively motivated left, not just the game, but the community. I didn't point them out because they aren't the ones I have heard, sometimes not so subtlely, put down because of there "go big or go home" mentality.

Yeah...completely hypocritical for him to belittle you for winning when you were playing for money and he was playing himself. The entry fee was what we pay here to play in a regional. If you're going to put the stakes that high, you're not being realistic not anticipating elevated play.

@ Koby I reiterate that it was...for me...the right thing to do in that particular circumstance. I truly don't regret it at all. Did it cost me a chance to make top 8? Yes, but the situation was that was a better player with a squad that was a totally bad matchup for my squad. He SHOULD have won easily. Besides, in that instance I felt like it was an opportunity to demonstrate good sportsmanship, something I preach all of the time and part of the legacy my father left in my heart when he passed in 2005. It's easy to preach that stuff in normal circumstances, but it says something about who you truly are at the core during trials. I want that said about me more than an unexpected victory over a great opponent. Besides, he deserved to win that game and win handily...I just made sure a stupid mistake didn't cost him. We'd been talking as we played so maybe I distracted him...who knows?

But, as I said in a subsequent post, I'll address that differently each time I face it. Had that situation occurred in that store I mentioned with those people I felt were poor sports I would have held them to their move and then squashed them. If it happens against someone who is a 'rules lawyer', I'll expect them to suffer the consequences.

So you are a get what you give out kind of guy. :)

No seriously its a good point. You play to the competition balancing fun and competitiveness. I used to use the local game store events as times to try out random squad ideas that I didn't think were very competitive. I wouldn't play down in terms of tactics, but in terms of squad sure. I also used to regularly help people get better at the game, and most of the time would give away most prize support to the kids who had the least. Most places used drafts, I'd draft my pieces, and keep only that which helped complete my sets, rest would go to the newer players.

And certain tactical moves, like using lock out, would be reserved only for the most competitive games and players. I can count on one hand the amount of games I won using lock out. All but one occurred against Matt Peterson. The other was against Weeks in the Gencon semis. I even told the judge to give me a warning for it. :)

The key is understanding where you are and who you are playing. And knowing what was at "stake" in winning a game. I don't like winning from an error, but I remember a couple of others who used to say that they wouldn't point out an error for any opponent in top level play. While my own competitive spirit doesn't go that far, I can understand it. It's when you take that kind of play down to the lower levels that it becomes an issue.

Same here. I've only had one game go to lockout, which was only done because my opponent was the LGS's "that guy". He made a bad move that left Palpatine locked in a broom closet for the remainder of the match. A little cheap, yes, but to knock down a peg someone who constantly brags about being a master strategist and the like while simply spying on the opposition and building hate squads/decks was worth it.