I'm starting this thread because the BTL was getting a bit off topic. That thread is reserved for reporting people to the BTL only. That being said, I believe the topic of how to better manage the BTL and what to do about those that are put on it should be open for discussion, I'm certainly open to any suggestions. The last time I started one of these threads brought some great suggestions, and actually put a stop to the problems I was having at the time. I will ask that you please keep your comments respectful and don't use names, or for that matter, usernames in this thread. I know people are upset about being ripped off, but the solutions to the problem won't be found by dragging people through the mud further.

Thanks!

The best thing to do is educate people in looking at the GTL/BTL lists BEFORE they make any offers. I know I'm guilty of this as well and have to remind myself to go look at the lists. They are a very valuable tool for trading on any forum/site. Of course, they do not help for first time traders that stiff someone, but that's the rare negative of trading via the internet. Don't get your hopes down...there are LOTS of good traders out there!

As for the BTL list, not sure how to handle that one. Having them pointed out on the GTL is a big help. Other than that, I do not have a suggestion at this time.

But...I did want to give thanks to ChuckaFett & Boba52 for the ALL hard work on all the lists. I for one am very appreciative of it all!!!

I have 2 questions:

1. From reading the BTL rules, it looks like it implies that if a supposed scammer eventually makes good on a bad trade, then that person will be transferred from the Bad Traders list to the 90 Day Warnings list. Is that correct? If so, "rehabilitation" procedures should be more obvious so that scammers (or perhaps it just a person who's hit a rough spot in life) have at least a small carrot to come back to the light side.

2. Why does leaving good references for face-to-face trades make you a bad trader? I understand why you wouldn't want someone to abuse the system by doing that, but the punishment seems a bit harsh for the crime. Why not put them on the 90 Day Warnings list?

Thanks.

Perhaps a FAQ type entry in or below the rules, something like this:

I messed up and now I am on the BTL - how can I restore myself to good standing?
Followed with suggestions for remedies, and what the process will be as far as the list itself (i.e. from BTL to 90-day warning, eventually cleared or whatever).


I agree it seems somewhat harsh, but things being what they are, and as Ken implied, I think giving only a warning probably leaves too wide of an opening for people to build up a good number of refs before getting caught on a face-to-face (if they ever actually do, don't know how that comes to light short of another user reporting them).
Once they have those refs they are in a strong position to scam the new traders.

I've conducted a number of F2F trades where the entire deal except for exchange of minis was conducted here using the collection tracker and BMs, mainly because it was convenient and we weren't going to see each other frequently enough to work it out otherwise. It was tempting to post refs for those, but in the end we realized that would be wrong and not at all worth a red flag. If we had wanted refs that bad we would have mailed the minis - didn't seem worth the cost.

Excuse me... but that's a matter of your perspective... just because you have a good experience trading through another site doesn't mean someone else there doesn't get screwed (and how would you know that?). No trading system is deemed perfect. So as long as people are more aware of the traders who earned their place in the GTL (and not on the BTL), and the amount of refs earned of how much people put into postage and package material (and stated condition, etc)... only then can we understand that they too would have a good experience trading with that person

Yes it was very tempting for me and David to give some GTL to each other for conducting all of our trades here then sending them through my son, the courier, when he went to play at the LGS (I can't play because I work that night ). Does it count my wife spent money on the gas to drive him there and I packaged the figs in a baggie?

I suggest for those that are on the BTL and actually earn GTL that their name stay red to bring attention to them but put their -1 points out to the side of their +1 points so people know how many BTL references there are. Then somewhere in the BTL list maintain a record of the actual trade info so people know the circumstances. It is ultimately up to the traders involved to use their best judgment. I just want to know what I'm dealing with going in.

Look at it like this, if we were to add face-to-face trades on the GTL ref system, it would be a problem. Bottom line is people would abuse it & claim of all of these trades they did that probably never took place. Im not saying people are unhonest but its the sad reality of the world we live in. Anyone has a chance to exploit & abuse something, 90% of us do it. & i believe with trade refs the case would be no difference.There would be no eveidence for these transactions other than the word of the trader.

You also gotta realize that this site isnt just for mini trading. Actually i would say that probably %10 of the site is dedicated to that. I say its an after thought. I would say the main reason of this site is to provide options that no other site does, such as collection tracker & squad building to name a few all in one site.

I would say the solution to the problem of making Bad traders known better is more easily done than hard. People just gotta start looking more into the person they are trading with plain & simple. You gotta enforce to where if you have more GTL refs then you make them send first. Thats what the ref system is there for. But in reality not everyone wants to go & look & track down someones trading hhistory. I say a simple icon next to there name at the bottom of the screen (like the has donated icons) & whenever you come acrossed a users name you would see this icon to let you know weither they are on the 90 day warning list or a perminant bad trader.

Now i dont know what it would take for this to happen, if it would cost money & thats pretty much the only solution i can think of ya know..

@Perc - you are right that people often don't take the time to check the history. Let's face it, the GTL feedback thread is REALLY long now. Nonetheless, if I'm unsure I will slog through it to see who someone has traded with. Often that will tell you a lot, and if not you can BM some of the ref-givers and ask how things went. I've done that on a couple occasions. Of course, the BTL should always be consulted...

@Rabid - I like that stoplight icon idea!

Green = go!
Yellow = caution
Red = hit the brakes, or someone could get hurt

See only problem with that is, whos to stop anyone from keep clicking on their handle. Since it would never be brought up about who is about to trade you would have to make some way to put a block on it so that someone dont get someone else to keep clicking it. I myself like the way your going with it. I been shooting for some kind of thing where you click feedback with but havent came up with a solid solution.

But then at the same time as i mentioned before, i think the solution is so easy & obvious. How people dont search as much as they should for peoples trade records. I loveeeeeeeee Rabid Wookiee's idea of the icon's. & if even not at the bottom with the rest of names who are signed on. Some way to expose them better. Because thats the main thing, is Chuck can only do so much before it becomes up to us (the party involved) to finish sealing a trade & searching. Chuck just provides us with all of there info & keeps tracks of it which is amazing. How the names have a donate icon next to them, having some kind of icon next to there name would make them noticable.

If this person doesnt have a problem with trading have a Green Light, if this person is on the 90 day warning, Have a yellow triangled caution sign. & if they are perminant bad traders, have a stop sign next to there name. Having it exposed better would make it that much easier to flush these people out & not trade with them.

& also what swinefeld said go & contact the people that this user previously traded with in the past & get some info on them. I've done that before also. The only problem i have with that is going through the GTL ref thread to find people they traded with. I have no idea in mind how to make it easier to go through that. It would have to be a whole other thread listing each trader's name but instead of having there refs next to there name, have like the last 5 users they traded with names next to theres. But i just think the solution is simple.. Just might take some time & effort to be put into effect, or maybe might take some money to do so, thats the issue im not sure what it would take.

I can't disagree with anything you said there. I think the site will see features like that in the future. If more people ask for them (and donate a little - ) it would likely move up on Shinja's to-do list, which I'm sure is quite long. I don't suppose it would be too hard to at least have the rating next to the username when viewing the trade listing...

People who are having problem trades definitely need to come forward on a timely basis, with the way things are now. At the least just to talk to Chuckafett about it and see if a cautionary post on the BTL might be appropriate prior to a formal bad reference. There is only so much that can be done short of having an automated system of some sort. Stick to the guidelines as far as who sends first, and otherwise do some research.... it only takes one bad apple as the saying goes