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Poll Question : What should we do with Daala
Choice Votes Statistics
Leave her alone, she is fine 4 12.121212 %
Change her before Gencon 12 36.363636 %
Change her after Gencon 16 48.484848 %
Ban her completely 1 3.030303 %

How should we proceed with Daala Options
DarkDracul
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 5:23:20 PM
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jak wrote:
Daala's the ultimate crutch pieceCursing

any one who brings her to GenCon is saying"my playing skills, and imagination are sub par, so I brought the biggest NPE ever to compensate for my short comings."

Anyone who brings Daala to GenCon has my respect. To win GenCon they're going to have to face top players with all the Daala hate and still come out on top. The boards have been nothing but talk about Daala and her dominance for months and months. So it would be pretty sad if no one runs Daala.
She's responsible for this meta, she needs to show her face!

Michigan Regional my OR trooper squad got hosed by Lou's regional winning Daala-Snowtroop squad.
I playtested against it and sadly discovered that squads I usually play don't beat Daala-Snowtroopers.

Kokomo regional was full of Daala hate and not one "Daala-trooper squad", she was just taunting us...
I continued for months trying to beat Daala with different squads without any success.
So I decided to admit defeat and just to take Daala to the Chicago Regional.
Besides, it felt like it would be a crime if no one played her.

Round 1 Jason K. Vong Swarm with aggressive Negotiations and Blast Bug (Tough Match Up) 0-1 0 points
Bad rolls and Jason outplayed me and won a 3 point win.

Round 2 ??? Daala Scout trooper Swarm (Mirror Match) 1-1 2 points
We were tied on points and I won a 2pt win for having a snowtrooper in the middle of gambit.

Round 3 Atmsalad Mando DeathWatch Swarm with furious and SD20 (Tough Match Up) 1-2 2 points
Atm could run 12 squares furious assault, base multiple troopers and SD20. bad news

Round 4 Timmerb123 Talon-Klat Swarm (Tough Match up) 1-3 2 points
Tim beats me like a drum and by the end of the day I'm glad to watch Daala die.

I feel my experience is a good representation for what a person playing Daala at GenCon should expect.
They might get some easy wins early in the day but the later matches are going to be very challenging.
It would be a great accomplishment for someone to win that day with Daala.
Deathwielded
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 6:34:11 PM
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I think she should be looked at more closely after Gencon, if she is overpowered let her prove it. I personally liked the idea of Swarm squads being viable, but not at the cost we are looking at. When good players are conteplating leaving the game behind because of how powerful she is then thats a problem.
I really havn't heard at all how she is doing against squads that should do really well against her, I.E Yobuck ect. It seems to me that people are still playing largely disadvantageous squads against her. Does that seem the case or is that just me?

The polls and playtests came first were the 10 point gambit is concerned. I have heard others mention that they have thought about it previously, but it hasn't been until recently that we have really knuckled down and really discussed it (I large part thanks to Atmsalad imo)
After the majority said we thought it was a great idea then the guys in charge put it into effect. Thats working government for yaThumbsUp

I really doubt V-set 9 will have anything that evens out the playing field, unless we are getting a big 'power creep' where we make all the other factions far better.

Deathwielded
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 6:43:41 PM
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In my opinion, the problem originally was Daala giving far more damage to way lower costing troopers, the Slaver being a way too good movement breaker and the Snowtrooper Officer offering Snowtroopers a rapport of 2.

we have since worked on the first two problems with an errata, but I think the real trouble maker is the Snowtrooper Officer. Snowtroopers have access to more attack boosts thus making their attack astronomically high and with the Rapport you also have them competing cost wise with the Raxus Prime Troopers with the added benefit of 20 hp. THAT'S the problem my friends. If the Snows weren't that viable an option (thanks mostly to the Rapport) Daala wouldn't be as competitive me thinks. Still really good, but not as incredibly nasty as we've seen. 20 hp is what prevents the successful use of the Swarm killer Momaw who usually is the best reinforcement option for ALL faction to help with swarms and he isn't really worth swat against 20 hp troopers. Any thoughts on this?
atmsalad
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:08:05 PM
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Deathwielded wrote:
In my opinion, the problem originally was Daala giving far more damage to way lower costing troopers, the Slaver being a way too good movement breaker and the Snowtrooper Officer offering Snowtroopers a rapport of 2.

we have since worked on the first two problems with an errata, but I think the real trouble maker is the Snowtrooper Officer. Snowtroopers have access to more attack boosts thus making their attack astronomically high and with the Rapport you also have them competing cost wise with the Raxus Prime Troopers with the added benefit of 20 hp. THAT'S the problem my friends. If the Snows weren't that viable an option (thanks mostly to the Rapport) Daala wouldn't be as competitive me thinks. Still really good, but not as incredibly nasty as we've seen. 20 hp is what prevents the successful use of the Swarm killer Momaw who usually is the best reinforcement option for ALL faction to help with swarms and he isn't really worth swat against 20 hp troopers. Any thoughts on this?


Very good points, and it would seam to me that the raxus builds tend to be very difficult to run. I like the idea of either cutting the snow capitans rapore, but I still would like to see her not used with anything below 10 points. What do you guys think about give her the ability: "Only Tarkins Finest"- Your squad can't contain any troopers with a printed cost of 10 or less?
countrydude82487
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:34:49 PM
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personally i voted to wait until after gen con. I really do not want to see a piece get banned, but instead of tweaking her even further i feel we should just ban her instead. IF she keeps getting tweaked, then we will simply cause more and more confusion that is not good for the game.
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:53:08 PM
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Hypothetically, if Daala was banned or neutered hard, would would be the next best paper squad? Tantives? Naboo Troopers (D Nader's regional winning build was clever, despite not getting much attention)? Would they just fill the niche, or are Daala squads far and away the best paper build?
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 2:03:49 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
Hypothetically, if Daala was banned or neutered hard, would would be the next best paper squad? Tantives? Naboo Troopers (D Nader's regional winning build was clever, despite not getting much attention)? Would they just fill the niche, or are Daala squads far and away the best paper build?

Daala is UBER PAPER, nothing matches her in activations, boosts or firepower.
Naboo Troops are good but opposing players have more options for dealing with them.
Vong Swarms could be the next tier one paper squad, but most people really dislike playing Vong.
I think there would be plenty of top teir 1 paper type squads available if Daala got banna Jammaed
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 6:30:34 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
Hypothetically, if Daala was banned or neutered hard, would would be the next best paper squad? Tantives? Naboo Troopers (D Nader's regional winning build was clever, despite not getting much attention)? Would they just fill the niche, or are Daala squads far and away the best paper build?


I hate Naboo as well, but at least it can be attacked with Kaan, and Ani Solo. Also, since the squad does not contain a Pallaeon type piece, Commander Effects can be shut down by Bastilla. So there are multiple ways to attack the squad that keep it in check. WIth Daala there is not.
SignerJ
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 6:49:37 AM
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Removing Pellaeon from the mix would probably solve the problem (assuming there is one). From what I've read, the flexibility offered by his CE combined with the Force immunity offered by Ysalamiri are huge boosts to Daala squads. Taking away the ability to switch in/out Ozzel would reduce the power offered by all of the activations in Daala squads, and removing Ysalamiri would allow even more squads to compete, with Bastila nerfing CEs, Thought Bomb and Unleash the Force acting as swarm counters, and giving Jedi more of a fighting chance with Lightsaber Defense and other Force powers.

From the suggestions posed in this thread, a Rival for "admirals" is probably the best way to go about this. Not only does it remove Pellaeon from the equation, but it also gives the designers a way to design powerful Imperial commanders in the future without having to worry about Daala.

Of course, this all assumes that there is a problem, and I'm not entirely sure of that. So I'm voting to wait until after Gencon before changing her.
Besides, it seems like all of the time people have spent preparing Daala counters would be wasted if she were to be nerfed before the big competition.
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 7:28:45 AM
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Daala has the most all inclusive of any piece with prideful I believe. Although giving her rival for other admirals would be easy and make sense for the flavor(with the exception of palleon), the problem in my opinion isn't the versatility of the squad. I see it as making "pawns" more powerful than they should be. Give her prideful the disclaimer that it can't be used with pieces 10 and under and I think the problem would be solved, or even her making her CE not work for pieces 10 and under.

What do you guys think about that?
Amadeus
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 7:54:33 AM
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In my mind the part about daala that makes her really strong is a board wide indisruptable stackable +4 +10 for a cheap price. Troopers already have a ton of perks available to them that stack (especially the snowtroopers with their overloaded commanders). Never played with daala before but that's what I get out of it.

I agree that the snowtroopers have too much bonuses already with their exclusive commanders which give them already +8 atk +10 dmg, which in my mind is already a lot. Daala added to the mix is just over the top.
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 8:04:37 AM
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TheHutts wrote:
Hypothetically, if Daala was banned or neutered hard, would would be the next best paper squad? Tantives? Naboo Troopers (D Nader's regional winning build was clever, despite not getting much attention)? Would they just fill the niche, or are Daala squads far and away the best paper build?


I think that SOME squad would fill that roll. There is always some perceived evil best squad that people love to make out to be the villain. Everything from B+B, to speedy cannon, to GOWK, to Lancer/yobuck, to bastilla, to mace, to naboo, to storm commandos, to malgus/caedus, daala/karrde/tantives.

If you remove that squad, people will just hate on a new squad that is an NPE or overpowered or whatever. And I am not even sold that Daala is the best swarm out there at the current time. It's just the one that people are playing the most.
jak
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 8:51:41 AM
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jak wrote:
Daala's the ultimate crutch pieceCursing

any one who brings her to GenCon is saying"my playing skills, and imagination are sub par, so I brought the biggest NPE ever to compensate for my short comings."




Wink just trying shame some people to bring a squad that's fun for both players
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 9:46:54 AM
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jak wrote:
jak wrote:
Daala's the ultimate crutch pieceCursing

any one who brings her to GenCon is saying"my playing skills, and imagination are sub par, so I brought the biggest NPE ever to compensate for my short comings."




Wink just trying shame some people to bring a squad that's fun for both players


Gencon is filled with squads that are not fun for either person. Lancers, Naboo, etc... Anything approaching 20 acts with act control isn't fun for both players. Last year top 8 had some nice surprises Krayt with Revan, and Thon song. I'm with you though on shaming people out of playing Daala. Now if the same logic could only be applied to the other NPE's floating around here.
The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 9:58:30 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
DonStamos wrote:
Wasn't it mentioned that a decision had already been made before that poll was put up? Not that I'm saying the community is left in the dark or powerless (I don't think we are), but I remember reading about how it was a poll to test the opinion waters and that the decision might be changed if opinion warranted.

Of course, I might have failed my save on a Jedi Mind Trick, too.

*edit*

Meant to click the "after Gencon" option. My bad. :-[


It is my understanding that a decision was reached based on the polls and threads preceding bills. Ie threads and polls that were started by the community.


Also not correct. The polls and discussion were prompts for me to start looking at data. Opinions have to mean very little in rules, but data isn't the end-all-be-all either; sometimes you have to just make a judgement call based off of the said data and when that happens in this type of environment then you have to factor in the emotional support of the player base, thus the second poll.
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:13:11 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
DonStamos wrote:
Wasn't it mentioned that a decision had already been made before that poll was put up? Not that I'm saying the community is left in the dark or powerless (I don't think we are), but I remember reading about how it was a poll to test the opinion waters and that the decision might be changed if opinion warranted.

Of course, I might have failed my save on a Jedi Mind Trick, too.

*edit*

Meant to click the "after Gencon" option. My bad. :-[


It is my understanding that a decision was reached based on the polls and threads preceding bills. Ie threads and polls that were started by the community.


Also not correct. The polls and discussion were prompts for me to start looking at data. Opinions have to mean very little in rules, but data isn't the end-all-be-all either; sometimes you have to just make a judgement call based off of the said data and when that happens in this type of environment then you have to factor in the emotional support of the player base, thus the second poll.


I didn't mean to say that the reasons the rules change occurred was purely because of votes and community backing.(although now that I read over my comment I can see how that was taken). Thank you for saying that! (did you ever happen to post that graph?)
pegolego
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:37:16 AM
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jak wrote:
Daala's the ultimate crutch pieceCursing

any one who brings her to GenCon is saying"my playing skills, and imagination are sub par, so I brought the biggest NPE ever to compensate for my short comings."



Hmm... Honestly, I would still give that title to guys like pre-v-set GOWK over Daala in just the most negative PIECES category. Razz
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 1:05:59 PM
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SignerJ wrote:
From the suggestions posed in this thread, a Rival for "admirals" is probably the best way to go about this.


I Wear The Pants - this character cannot be in the same squad as another character whose name contains Admiral.

Admirals would cut out a lot - no GARY, no Piett, no Pellaeon - it might actually steer people to just playing more troopers, which might not be great either....
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 1:12:48 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
SignerJ wrote:
From the suggestions posed in this thread, a Rival for "admirals" is probably the best way to go about this.


I Wear The Pants - this character cannot be in the same squad as another character whose name contains Admiral.

Admirals would cut out a lot - no GARY, no Piett, no Pellaeon - it might actually steer people to just playing more troopers, which might not be great either....


And no Ozzel. (I think "Rival" works... I don't think you would need a new name for the SA.)

markedman247
Posted: Sunday, July 27, 2014 2:12:17 PM
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Would "Independent" (Re: Alto Stratus) with Imperial work? Means only 1 other Imp commander. Would that continue the abuse?
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