+1

Comments like this make me supportive of Legacy Format (TN minis).

Standard is not perfect but it's the game my friends and I have played for over 10 years.
Changes to Standard should never be made without proven data and popular support.
*Years of kill-points and door games before gambit was play-tested and used in Standard.
*Years of play-testing 200pt format and reporting results before it became the Standard.
*Years of New Zealand using 3-2-1 scoring and keeping records before it was adopted into Standard.
*Years of talking/ play-testing 10 pt gambit before it was adopted into Standard.

Personally, I'd love to see character limits per point-format or character rarity in competitive play.
Something to keep squads smaller. 20+ characters for an hour long game is abusive IMHO.
Maybe something like what D&D minis, which this game was based on, used for Epic play.
1 max:of any named Unique
2 max of any same named Very Rare,
4 max of any same named Rare,
6 max of any same named Uncommon,
8 max of any same named Common

Standard has a thing or two to learn from Legacy but exactly what only time will tell.
So let's promote Legacy and Standard and maintain our solidarity as Star Wars Miniature Gamers.

Some interesting points. While I still feel that making exceptions for the Mice (even though WE know it's silly that they provide cover, it may not make enough sense to make exceptions for one piece, because then there becomes a question of how many OTHER pieces ought have similar rule exceptions made for them) isn't a great idea, since it's been played that way so long, I could see something like that being changed, should the community as a whole feel it's a big enough issue to warrant a change, and agree that it needs to happen.

Is it silly? Yes, of course. But the thing is, it's still a small based piece like all the others that DO provide cover and prevent movement/force targeting etc.. Game mechanics can't cover EVERYTHING without becoming needlessly complicated, so once that rule changes, it just would make any other silly rules that much sillier, and could have a more negative effect on the game than a positive one, I'm afraid . Simplicity is the name of the game here . Maybe had it been given an ability that made note of it's tiny form and caused it to not grant cover and such, it would make sense, but with no previous history of such exceptions being made, it makes it tougher to enforce such changes.

Things like Jedi cutting through the walls is an interesting proposition for a more unique game mode (something like the ultimate missions maybe, taking some force users against a slew of opposing troops, where they have special powers like that), but is definitely NOT something I can see happening to standard minis .

+1 to that.

I am basically of the same mindset. I feel that we should not do something to drastically change the original rules set down. If you want to in your playgroup that is fine, but mouse droids providing cover never really bothered me, because it is a game. THe same principal went for lightsaber not counting as a melee attack. I have played a lot of different game systems over the years, and Honestly no game is perfect. I have played Magic the gathering, Dice masters, Hero clix, Pirates of the Spanish main, and a whole slew of different cards games over the years, and none of them have been perfect.

The main reason i would not switch to the MTG style of cycle for legal pieces mostly because that is the reason i left Magic. IT becomes not only too hard to remember what is legal, and if the current sets don't reflect anything you like to play then you just either suck it up or sit out. I am of the mindset that i have to enjoy what i play. In a lot of cases this would drastically limit the playing field also, to the point that you would only see half a dozen squads at regionals or gen-con. I happen to like the fact right now that the meta is unpredictable. It makes the game interesting so that you are not seeing one type of squad, and its counter all the time.

+1

After a little bit of studying and discussion with Bronson, I am on board with what the TN group is doing. I think I talk it up quite a bit on the show, even though I know a good portion of the listeners probably won't play the format. Why? Because they are changing rules that took away from the enjoyment of the game for some, removing NPEs and giving force users the spotlight. I think we need organized play that does this and I want to see that grow.

There are others who, although they may recognize the ridiculousness of say, a mouse droid providing cover, understand that it is also important to not let the rules become subjective. For them and anyone wondering back into the game after a hiatus will be able to play the same rules WotC left us with, logically flawed that they are. This was actually a focus of the original Vset designers, and I agree with it. We need that consistency, in my opinion.

I believe that right now is the greatest time to play the game. We have a wide open meta in competitive play, and we now have the TN group working hard to create an alternative to the illogic that WotC left us with. I have worked with others to try and keep harmony between supporters of both formats, and it is important that both sides respect what the other is doing. The glass is half full, people.

I agree 100%

I would also say that right now is the greatest time to play the game. Right now there is a playstyle to appeal to whatever aspect of the game that interests you. And that is great!

Personally I don't ever want to see standard minis doing what we are doing in the Legacy format (Which I guess is what we have been named now?) because I like the variety. I like the choice being out there for players. Dr Daman compared it to Coke vs Pepsi, and how he enjoys both. I would hate it if was a situation where "You have to drink Coke, and only Coke."

The variety needs to exist to appeal to the largest possible audience. I also agree with whoever said that before a change is implemented in standard play it needs to be tested extensively such as the 3-2-1 system in NZ.

I have said many times that the point in our Legacy version wasn't to divide. If that is how you feel about what we are doing you are missing the point. I went on the SHNN and explained in detail what exactly it is that we are doing. It certainly isn't trying to takeover or force everyone to play our way.

It's not for everyone.

Just like Standard isn't for everyone. And for those people, I hope our version of the game can keep them playing, and maybe someday they will give standard another chance. Bottom line, I think everyone can agree on the point that this game has lost enough players. So instead of watching them walk out the door, I want to try and keep people playing.

really? i am lost.

hmmm... major difference in why the game is fun than.
If i did not care about the flavor of Star Wars i would just go find a different version from a different set of movies that I did like, the play and tactics are both pretty similar.

adding onto Ultrastar I would love to see an approach to bring in new players (i think kobayashimaru and Jonnyb815 posted some ideas) now that we are kind of at our core players that will probably stick around for a while. And while we try to bring in new players or bring back old players we keep it fresh for everyone playing.
Just designing and pting legacy pieces is a huge amount of time. A very fun time, but a lot. I think we can separate vsets out a tad more and have some fun play time that is competitive. but mostly for fun.

That is why I think special rules tournaments are the best way to go and focus on talking to some potential players.

If people like the idea of different versions of the game than special rules leagues/tournies that Mando discussed can be a lot of fun.

I'm off for a while ;) movie night with the family

Quick mediation here, EmperorDragon is talking about the chess piece and jen'ari is talking about IRL bishops. That is, jen'ari is saying there does not exist IRL bishops who follow the "move only on black squares diagonally" rule.

Also +1 to your earlier post EmperorDragon about rule changes and stuff

IRL=In Real Life, how much fun you get out of "real life" varies, although let me tell you, games last for YEARS, and require like 2 decades of training before you can really get competitive. It had good reviews at its debut at GenCon, which seems like billions of years ago, so it really caught on and now everyone's playing it.

I don't feel strongly about the Mouse/Lightsaber changes either way.

Even on the Mouse Droid front, there are tons of things to consider to "fix" it:
* Can we move through them?
* Do they provide cover?
* Do you have to target them? What if adjacent?
* What about other small-base and/or 0-damage characters?

There isn't agreement on the best answers to those questions. Above, jen'ari indicated that Mice shouldn't force targeting, but the TN rules say nothing about that. Under TN rules, no small-base characters provide cover, but you can only move through a Mouse Droid.

I'm not arguing for any particular version of the above. If there was a strong enough desire to change it (with relative agreement on the above questions), I'd be fine with pretty much whatever as long as it wasn't too confusing. Since opinions are split, I'd say to just leave it alone.

To me, it's all an abstraction so I am able to just ignore it. (Though back in the day when Mara killed my evading/blocking Kol Skywlaker with MotF2 and Leia rerolls, I sure wasn't happy! Especially because I didn't know the rule.) But being an abstraction, an abstraction that better fits "reality" is, in general, better. Just not a big deal to me either way.

@amadeus
HAHAHA re "real life, it really caught on and now everyone's playing it"
- I immediately thought of The Simpsons, and the couchgag with Homer playing Life the Boardgame, hahah. It brought a tear to the eye.

Digression aside,
there's a lot of brainstorming going on here
I hear a lot of that discussion about new abilities earlier here on page 2 -
that is part of the fun of house rules and experimenting with porting stuff from other systems into SWMinis etc.
Since there's no DCI anymore, on what authority are tournaments made/based?

- terrain deformation would be neat, and would be a nice 'auto include' feature for characters with lightsabers... intrinsically, that would be consistent with what we see depicted in the source materials etc...
I think its a slippery slope though, trying to condense all of what Jedi/Sith are depicted as being capable of, into a workable game... sorta like a Grey Goo paradox, because once we allow jedi to essentially have 'override'/'satchel charge' for doors, why not have forcepowers target walls etc? Then, we'd want to bring in darkside points for every time a force user uses the force, etc...

luckily, there are roleplaying games that can take the verisimilitude/authenticity to the next level

however, I also resonate with the line of reasoning that
"sometimes, I dont feel like the effort of full-on SWRPG playing", you know?
Sometimes, you and the play group have had a long day's work... and you just want to go... where everybody knows your name...
kick back, relax, and play some old school games with people and laugh.
and so, as the play session rolls on, and people have more to eat and drink, it can be hard to keep track of multiple variables.
(thats something we need more data on; do people often drink/take substances and play SWMinis? it might be interesting to find the results.)


So, for abilities, I tried to come up with eons ago,
Attack X: where X is the number of adjacent people when you attack, you are considered as having that number as your base attacks for the purposes of twin etc. (as an aside, it was going to be called 'N'th Attack", but people either conflated that with Hawkman/Hawkgirl or felt it was an anti-P.C. term for reasons I still do not fully understand...)
This had some unforeseen consequences when people started combining Attack X with GMA and Twin via CE's, or Attack X, Twin, and Strafe Attack...
So, on a good turn, you might rolling cleave into 8 adjacent; do you get 8 attacks, plus 1 extra from twin per individual target?
yes... it was possible to have 19 or 20 attacks, if your character with Attack X was Proxy, and the characters adjacent were gonk droids who grant extra attack...
How does attack X work with Riposte, or attacks of opportunity? - do you get to make Attack X back against 1 person who was adjacent? I did not intend for that to happen, but many locals ruled "Yes". So, moving out of adjacent or if the character had Riposte or Lightsaber Assault etc... you could potentially have 20ish attacks needing to be rolled per trigger.
Anywho, it turns out I undercosted Attack X for the way I wanted Attack X to function - it shoulda been 15points more expensive.

A local player tried to port the Zoanthrope/Stalker or Space Hulk Hidden Movement ability 'place any 5 hidden tokens during setup' ability into SWMinis; but this was prone to abuse - the player with the hidden setup/hidden movement always changed where the character was between setup etc... still, it was a neat idea.
- a similar implementation was granting R-Units a 'holographic projected decoy' ability for all R-Series Droids: this turned out to be broken for gambit securing purposes.

A local fan of Jawa's wanted to more accurately depict Jawas,
so they created
"One Beings Trash Is Another Beings..." when any droid or cyborg character is defeated or removed from play, place a token at the location the character was defeated. This token does not interfere with movement purposes etc, and cannot be targetted or defeated. Touch: Adjacent scrap pile is removed from play - roll a save, on a table of values, the following things happen:
1, nothing, what a heap of junk,
2,4,8,11, add a scrap point to your reserves
20: place the defeated character on your squad with 20HPs, as if this character had failed Internal Strife/succeeded an Avoid Defeat.
other: place a droid character upto 8pts in the square that the scrape pile token occupied - "its not much, but it should hold together".
--- I immediately thought this would be great for a bunch of different squads, for Surf or CerousMutor's junk droids...
but it ended up making Kazdan Paratus builds very difficult to defeat, and of course overpowered the Seps.

Turning to the cards themselves,
many newer local players simply print doublesided on 110gsm using the deskjet at home or at a local printing place, and some even laminate. These are factors that can be brought up when running a demonstration stall or pitching the concept of a game club, or when conducting "random popup public exhibition matches" etc.
Stuff like Surf's cards or the VSET cards are print ready, so they wind up being near the same dimensions, with the awesome benefit of being waterproof once laminated.
Some prefer to have virtual statcards on ereaders/tablets instead: whatever floateth the boat!

---

anywho,
hopefully more think-tank ideas come from all this awesome discussion