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Klatooinian Assassin Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:54:13 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
If a force power makes it so they're only played with Talon, that basically solves the problem. They don't have to be unplayable, they just need be made to allow other options to shine. If they are only played in Talon squads, it's ok that they are played in Talon squads. Squads in any other faction that want a Fringe character at that point level will have options now.



well, imperials have yslamari as well, so same thing there. but I guess it would help solve the issue in some ways. but if you are only running 1-2 klats in your squad then I don't think you are too worried about force sense anyways, as it is such a small investment that you would probably still take the klats over anything else in that price range.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:57:03 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Cost adjustment would be the simplest. The character would work the same, so there would be nothing to adjust to in-game. If no other changes were made, I think cost 17 or 18 would actually be appropriate, even at 30 hp. At cost 16, I think he'd still be Tier 1, but no longer crowding out every other option around him. At 17 or 18, he'd only appear every once in a while.


If any errata were to happen, this would be the best path. Most significantly, it doesn't change the way they're played at all, it just makes them less attractive (and in the same way, makes other options more attractive).
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:59:52 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:


force power won't matter, they are typically played in all fringe with talon karde, so they have a ysalamari bubble anyways


I agree that it all fringe Klat squads will still be good, but at least Imperial squads will have one less reliable swap option and the Repbulic squad we saw a while back that had Zam killing the Klats with her Missiles will have a better counter(which was an ingenious strategy btw so i have mixed feelings about potentially ridding the meta of it). The Imperial squads can go back to older effective options. The thing about the fringe faction, is that if you have Talon in your squad, you don't have activation control like the Imperials,Seperatist,NR and Rebels do. Republic and Imperial squads used the Klat Assassin as a good swap option, but their are other good options still for swapping, so a klat potentially losing cloaked isn't that huge for those factions (for example, Imperials could go back to using Ruhk, who has cloaked, but is a unique). The klats aren't featured in many Rebels/NR squads that I have seen, but I've seen them run in Seps, Republic, and Imperial a lot.
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:59:43 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Cost adjustment would be the simplest. The character would work the same, so there would be nothing to adjust to in-game. If no other changes were made, I think cost 17 or 18 would actually be appropriate, even at 30 hp. At cost 16, I think he'd still be Tier 1, but no longer crowding out every other option around him. At 17 or 18, he'd only appear every once in a while.
I would be happy with that solution. And I agree with Echo that simpler (ie, less confusing, allowing the piece to still play the same) is better.
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:05:31 AM
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while on the topic of possibly errata'ing the Klat, could we also make it so rapport is droped off poggle the lesser? That would be so good for the game if that happened. less poggle bombs would equal more jedi squads not worrying about taking out 12-15 SD 20's for only 24-30pts. This is a proven NPE for the game and i think it was a major design oversight to make yet another 2pt piece in a faction that had activation control and now also has init control with the muun broker due to the SD 20.
juice man
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:35:53 AM
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Lets see, change Cloaked to Stealth, Damage 20 to 10, and then you go with the Kel Dor Bounty Hunter for 13 pts. Unless it's in Reinforcements and you're facing Jedi.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:40:07 AM
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If errata happens they need to cost 20 I would say.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:50:52 AM
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Mando wrote:
while on the topic of possibly errata'ing the Klat, could we also make it so rapport is droped off poggle the lesser? That would be so good for the game if that happened. less poggle bombs would equal more jedi squads not worrying about taking out 12-15 SD 20's for only 24-30pts. This is a proven NPE for the game and i think it was a major design oversight to make yet another 2pt piece in a faction that had activation control and now also has init control with the muun broker due to the SD 20.


This is the slippery slope though, because why not get rid of Panaka and the naboo pilots too while we are at it. Add bastilla's force power cost to 5 force points, make buzz droids not affect huges, give all huges huge walker and stable footing to begin with, make neo crusader only work on non-uniques, get rid of GMA on Mace Windu, drop rapport on republic commandos, drop soresu style mastery, and so on. There are more than enough counters to the Geonosians (Bastilla, bomb disposal, distraction and disruptive turn them into two point fodder as well as the sea of 10 damage area abilities). Once you start changing things, where does one stop? The Klats are especially annoying to play but I think that before they weren't used at all and at 3 points they probably won't see any play again. If people decide to change things that is fine, but it's a slippery slope of going and undoing past mistakes then. Also for cards that do get errata done (slaver and Daala so far, and whatever else gets done). Can we have a mini set called "Corrections" with all of their new stat cards on it for easier reference. I have had to explain to the non-Bloomilk players time and again that certain pieces are no longer what they were and a new card would be much easier.
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 9:01:44 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Mando wrote:
while on the topic of possibly errata'ing the Klat, could we also make it so rapport is droped off poggle the lesser? That would be so good for the game if that happened. less poggle bombs would equal more jedi squads not worrying about taking out 12-15 SD 20's for only 24-30pts. This is a proven NPE for the game and i think it was a major design oversight to make yet another 2pt piece in a faction that had activation control and now also has init control with the muun broker due to the SD 20.


This is the slippery slope though, because why not get rid of Panaka and the naboo pilots too while we are at it. Add bastilla's force power cost to 5 force points, make buzz droids not affect huges, give all huges huge walker and stable footing to begin with, make neo crusader only work on non-uniques, get rid of GMA on Mace Windu, drop rapport on republic commandos, drop soresu style mastery, and so on. There are more than enough counters to the Geonosians (Bastilla, bomb disposal, distraction and disruptive turn them into two point fodder as well as the sea of 10 damage area abilities). Once you start changing things, where does one stop? The Klats are especially annoying to play but I think that before they weren't used at all and at 3 points they probably won't see any play again. If people decide to change things that is fine, but it's a slippery slope of going and undoing past mistakes then. Also for cards that do get errata done (slaver and Daala so far, and whatever else gets done). Can we have a mini set called "Corrections" with all of their new stat cards on it for easier reference. I have had to explain to the non-Bloomilk players time and again that certain pieces are no longer what they were and a new card would be much easier.


There are counters to their SD, but not a counter to their costing 2pts. Wuher is a counter to the mouse droid drop, but there is no such counter to Geonosians and it can only be solved by an errata cause it is build into squad builds rather than a reinforcement option. The other things you brought up such as panaka/naboo pilots, bastilla's ABM (really there isn't a need to nerf the factions main claim to relevance), and the neo-crusaders CE (while extremely annoying/overpowered to me) all have counters to them in the game, there just ins't a counter to poggles rapport, which is why i brought it up. Poggle needs an errata before anything else is errata'd again, imo. The rapport on the RC's, Huges needing Huge Walker, SSM, Buzz droids aren't problems that are breaking the game or dominating the meta/needed to balance the meta. I get your point about a slippery slope, but Poggles rapport has been talked about since almost day 1 of the V-sets, and it's been long discussed about needing an errata.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 10:44:41 AM
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Mando wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Mando wrote:
while on the topic of possibly errata'ing the Klat, could we also make it so rapport is droped off poggle the lesser? That would be so good for the game if that happened. less poggle bombs would equal more jedi squads not worrying about taking out 12-15 SD 20's for only 24-30pts. This is a proven NPE for the game and i think it was a major design oversight to make yet another 2pt piece in a faction that had activation control and now also has init control with the muun broker due to the SD 20.


This is the slippery slope though, because why not get rid of Panaka and the naboo pilots too while we are at it. Add bastilla's force power cost to 5 force points, make buzz droids not affect huges, give all huges huge walker and stable footing to begin with, make neo crusader only work on non-uniques, get rid of GMA on Mace Windu, drop rapport on republic commandos, drop soresu style mastery, and so on. There are more than enough counters to the Geonosians (Bastilla, bomb disposal, distraction and disruptive turn them into two point fodder as well as the sea of 10 damage area abilities). Once you start changing things, where does one stop? The Klats are especially annoying to play but I think that before they weren't used at all and at 3 points they probably won't see any play again. If people decide to change things that is fine, but it's a slippery slope of going and undoing past mistakes then. Also for cards that do get errata done (slaver and Daala so far, and whatever else gets done). Can we have a mini set called "Corrections" with all of their new stat cards on it for easier reference. I have had to explain to the non-Bloomilk players time and again that certain pieces are no longer what they were and a new card would be much easier.


There are counters to their SD, but not a counter to their costing 2pts. Wuher is a counter to the mouse droid drop, but there is no such counter to Geonosians and it can only be solved by an errata cause it is build into squad builds rather than a reinforcement option. The other things you brought up such as panaka/naboo pilots, bastilla's ABM (really there isn't a need to nerf the factions main claim to relevance), and the neo-crusaders CE (while extremely annoying/overpowered to me) all have counters to them in the game, there just ins't a counter to poggles rapport, which is why i brought it up. Poggle needs an errata before anything else is errata'd again, imo. The rapport on the RC's, Huges needing Huge Walker, SSM, Buzz droids aren't problems that are breaking the game or dominating the meta/needed to balance the meta. I get your point about a slippery slope, but Poggles rapport has been talked about since almost day 1 of the V-sets, and it's been long discussed about needing an errata.


But at the same time those things would naturally follow if we start going back and changing everything to make it more balanced. Personally I think the worst thing to ever happen to the game for imbalance was the lancer. A piece I never use just on principle. Board wide-strafe is brutal. And I would love to see that piece just simply banned instead of all of the counters created against it. I know many people agree with that statement as well so why not ban it? And bastilla's ABM has been talked about since day one of the vsets being released as a problem to address. But instead the game was carried on and a whole new sea of abilities was created. As has happened with Poggle. I would argue that bribery was also created in part response to him. Stealing 5 activations from an opponents team's reinforcements is pretty legit. And even if it's not the SD 20, mouse droids are still 2 points so why not drop the rapport on Gha too? It's not that I am against Poggle being changed. He isn't a problem up here and I hear down in New Zealand he is more of a pain with Durge. What I want people to be careful about is going back and rewriting the game this far in to fix imbalances that have checks and balances put in place. My biggest gripes in the game that I wish were changed are:

Wuher (single handedly made the uncompetitive reserve teams even more uncompetitive, should just said fringe droids or droids with printed damage of 0)
Buzz Droid (while I love what they came out with to beat the annoying lancer, taking out huges that are completely nerfed just by their size alone set the game back even more for bringing huges to the table. Should be changed to just affect strafe/vehicle)
Bastilla (ABM changed to force 5, shutting down CEs for half the game is too much)
Lancer (lose Strafe attack or drop HP to 10, no piece should be able to attack the entire board 4 times in one round, while at it, chance the republic clone on speeder to the same as well)
R2-D2, astromech droid (lose tow cable)
Panaka (hands out +2 attack instead of twin)
Reikkan (hands out mobile and evade only to followers within 6 squares)
Lobot (cost increased to 35, I'm tired of seeing him on every single squad, would be better to have some more reinforcement options to choose from)
Neo-Crusader Officer (only affects non-uniques)
SSM does not affect adjacent ranged attacks.
And if there is still a spot Geonosian Drone (Geonosians cost 4 normally)

And even if someone doesn't agree with that list, they probably have their own list of top things they would change. And probably for legit reasons too. That's why we have to be careful about just changing everything rather than counters.

jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 10:57:12 AM
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everyone has a list.

However, it seems everyone's list is very very similar.

Why don't we focus on the top of those three.

My list, for instance was Mouse droids and lightsabers that I talked about, but Poggle is way up my list, Lancers are way up the list, and Klats are too.

I think those three are on everyones list.


The biggest point I would like to make is a piggy back off General grievous's post. The changes that occur (SA created, and overall designs), are sometimes just as bad as the original problem. Which complicates everything, so one counter than needs a counter. or one counter becomes an NPE in a different way.

NPE's are sticky like that, in my opinion the best thing to do with NPE's is to nerf, drop, or change. Not leave them alone.

Leaving them alone causes more problems and actually does not completely fix the problem
Mando
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:05:32 AM
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There is no way any changes are going to happen to WotC pieces. V-set pieces are a different story, cause those were created by the community and cards can be reprinted if nessesary or adjusted publicly because it is our content. There are tons of counters to Lancers, so if you don't build a squad without thinking of having a counter, that is your risk you take in your local meta. Any squad that has Lobot really can bring in a counter to lancers. Any Jedi/Sith with Lightsaber Riposte is a counter to Lancers. There are a lot more counters, but i think everyone gets the point. Lancers are powerful, and will always be strong in the meta, but they aren't near as powerful as they have been in the past, which i think is a testament to the V-set design teams.
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 2:37:09 PM
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General_Grievous wrote:
It's not that I am against Poggle being changed. He isn't a problem up here and I hear down in New Zealand he is more of a pain with Durge.


Out of curiosity, what Separatist builds do you see?

My version of events is that Poggle is so good that he's simply an auto-include for Separatist competitive builds - you spend 60-75 points on Poggle, Drones, Lobot, and San Hill, and you get an awesome squad backbone that can out-activate most other builds, has access to initiative control, a source of direct damage, and tempo control. It's too good to pass up for almost any Separatist builds, and it's always been around in the competitive game since Poggle's release. It's just with the release of a Separatist power piece in the Commando Droid Officer that Separatists have switched from Tier 1 to overly dominant - I think that it's really the first Separatist piece that's been significantly undercosted since the Poggle rapport in the first v-set.

I can see your frustration with Wuher - the droid reserves are an unfortunate side effect, but I don't see it influencing the competitive game too much. Seps are still by far the best reserves faction IMO, just because San Hill stops the MTB counter from working. You can have Dooku SL with the 69 point Sidious for force renewal and unlimited anticipation.
SignerJ
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 2:38:39 PM
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From what I understand, the main problem with the Klat Assassin isn't it's power level--it's the fact that it dominates its point range. Almost nothing close to it in points even stands a chance.

I'd also be in favor of a cost bump.
droidadmiral
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:58:18 PM
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Mando wrote:
There is no way any changes are going to happen to WotC pieces. V-set pieces are a different story, cause those were created by the community and cards can be reprinted if nessesary or adjusted publicly because it is our content. There are tons of counters to Lancers, so if you don't build a squad without thinking of having a counter, that is your risk you take in your local meta. Any squad that has Lobot really can bring in a counter to lancers. Any Jedi/Sith with Lightsaber Riposte is a counter to Lancers. There are a lot more counters, but i think everyone gets the point. Lancers are powerful, and will always be strong in the meta, but they aren't near as powerful as they have been in the past, which i think is a testament to the V-set design teams.



changes were made to WOTC pieces... GOWK


and the counters to the klat, defuse bombs or w/e is a complete joke, one shot from klat with talon, or any other commander that adds to damage= dead. the other piece that has it is what a republic commando I believe and that's cool, come base me to attack me, so I can face rape you.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:09:16 PM
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droidadmiral wrote:
changes were made to WOTC pieces... GOWK


No, changes were not made to GOWK. The change was to Soresu Style Mastery, and only for competitive play. And even that was only temporary as the V-sets eventually opened up the meta to the point where the ability was no longer an NPE Gatekeeper.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:19:12 PM
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Mando wrote:
There is no way any changes are going to happen to WotC pieces. V-set pieces are a different story, cause those were created by the community and cards can be reprinted if nessesary or adjusted publicly because it is our content. There are tons of counters to Lancers, so if you don't build a squad without thinking of having a counter, that is your risk you take in your local meta. Any squad that has Lobot really can bring in a counter to lancers. Any Jedi/Sith with Lightsaber Riposte is a counter to Lancers. There are a lot more counters, but i think everyone gets the point. Lancers are powerful, and will always be strong in the meta, but they aren't near as powerful as they have been in the past, which i think is a testament to the V-set design teams.


I came on the scene when V-set 1 came out, so my viewpoint my be different.

V-set pieces are legal and WotC pieces are legal. To me, playing standard, there is literally no difference whatsoever. I look at them piece by piece.

What the V-set has done has created new sets that are just as legitimate and important as WotC for Standard. They all pull the same weight because they are all playable. This idolizing/honoring/worshipping of the WotC is, in my opinion, just a form of setting hierarchy and quite frankly disrespectful to the design teams working on V-sets.

Are there not cards made for the V-sets? Do you not have to have a caricature to play the piece at official tournaments? Do you have to have an official card to play the piece?

V-sets are literally an extension of the WotC pieces and its an extension of the same thing.

The idea that there is some kind of weird forcefield surrounding the WotC pieces is very very odd to me. We have come so far since the WotC had the say in things to think that we should continue following it. Especially since it is a made up rule.

I remember the scene in hunger Games 2 when the people are called back to train for the quarter kell. The cool intelligent black guy was interviewed and he said something like "man made the quarter kell, surely he can unmake it".

I am not trying to push any agenda right now for changes, heaven knows I tried to discuss those, just discussing the reasoning behind such a silly ruling that WotC should not be touched. It should be dealt with NPE by NPE regardless of if the V-set designers designed it or WotC designed it.


Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:26:04 PM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
droidadmiral wrote:
changes were made to WOTC pieces... GOWK


No, changes were not made to GOWK. The change was to Soresu Style Mastery, and only for competitive play. And even that was only temporary as the V-sets eventually opened up the meta to the point where the ability was no longer an NPE Gatekeeper.



so wizards made a change, and the v-sets unchanged the change, so they undid something that wizards did.

and we can all agree that soresu mastery was changed due to GoWK.

and the moment GOWK was changed back... he won gencon, so maybe it was not balanced and ready for it.
jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 7:50:07 PM
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whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa!

Let me get this straight.

Wizards made a change to their own piece before V-sets came out????!!!???

And we are supposed to have immunity for WotC pieces??

How in the world does this make sense.
WotC themselves made changes to their own mistake that was creating an NPE and/or a huge power gap. We can most definitely follow suit. In fact, it is our duty to follow suit.

HAHAHA!! WotC sets the fantastic example of understanding that when something is too good to nerf it.

Magic the gathering bans or restricts pieces all the time!

Apparently they did the same thing to GOWK!

I truly feel that there is "A New Hope" for changing some of the NPE's WotC created. If WotC can do it, than we can definitely do it as well.

Holy Junk thanks droid admiral and deathsbaine.

Awesome

and please emperordragon lets steer away from the rhetoric, their is no other piece that had soresu style mastery that ever warranted a change, it was done solely for GOWK.

I cant believe this! The whole time after the huge discussion about rules in the other forum and the 111 posts and over 2000 views I thought, man people really just are not willing to change WotC, they want to keep it as close to how it was as possible. Now i found out that WotC changed its own piece!

So in their "rules" they had to have a clause for being flexible when the need arises. We should MOST DEFINITELY follow WotC's example and when an NPE arises, just go for the change.
Dr Daman
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:48:11 PM
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I get the feeling this thread is kinda off topic. It reads a lot like another one I was just looking at and I'm pretty sure we don't need two threads saying the same stuff.

As for the Klat Assassins, I think they are very powerful, but I don't see them tearing up the tournament tables. If there was to be a change, I don't think it needs to be too drastic. I quite like Jim's ideas and maybe they warrant some further investigation.
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