RegisterDonateLogin

Has never underestimated the power of the Dark Side.

Welcome Guest Active Topics | Members

The Jedi Way Options
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 5:37:39 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
@rundummy,
excellent question BlooMilk
which houserules specifically from that novella of a post I waffled,
were you wondering how we had to factor in locally - just so as we're on the same page, as I did waffle about a lot of potential 'houserules fixes' BigGrin
I'm keen to hear your feedback
(and apologies if all this is tangential to the OP's thread -- we can move that to a different place if needs be BigGrin I'm all for seeing 'dynamic duo' pieces, just like they have in Heroclix)

To the costing conundrum,
there were a few stat costing threads over the years,
and an excel spreadsheet.
Surf and Biggsy, Lord Ball and Lilliwan had a few perspectives on costing too, which the local group agreed to over the years often

10HP
1 DEF
1 ATK
10 DMG were 3 or 5 points...,
with +10 HP being 2/3points under 80HP, and 3-5pts per 10HP above 80HP
+1 DEF = +1point (under 20pts total), with a cap/limit on max defense value.
+1 ATK = +1point for under 12 ATK total, +1-2points above 12. Max value +25 (or similar proportional value to DEF)
+10DMG = +5 points per 10DMG, cap of 60DMG for vehicles.

so,
basically, its 'rapid playtesting' till we find a pricepoint that's fairest.
- positive effects add 3-15+points,
negative effects subtract points usually 1-7pts,

This model is rough, and is how we arrive at our custom costs locally,
with a tendency to overcost custom pieces generally.



Attack X was initially undercosted, at only adding +8points to a unit cost.
I argued that it oughta be +10 or +12points, but was reminded in playtesting that the balance was there in the fact you have to be adjacent to 8 other characters, and it was probable that more than half of those would be enemy figures... hence why cost remained around +8pts,
though, Attack X can be a little more expensive on pieces with more survivability.

Lightsaber Redirect was thought to be +7pts, because unlike reflect, you can choose who to redirect the attack to.
I originally wanted Lightsaber Redirect to apply to 'Damage' - so, it could be used against direct damage or AoE effects... but that was thought to be OverPowered. BigGrin

Force Maelstrom is +9points, and is probably overcosted on balance, because of the force points and 'counters'... its a slow terrain deform ability which can negatively effect your own squad... very situational, but reflects that scene from Empire Strikes Back where Vader hurls anything not nailed down at Luke.
though some contend that it oughta be costed more like Force Illusion or Force Corruption

Force Cover is around +5points. Sure, you get to remove movement penalties on terrain, but all it does is makes a lame version of a mouse droid/3P0, and can't be used to outright stop a bunch of attacks, especially from characters with Sniper or AoE, etc. (making Sniper actually useful and meaningful again heh).


Making force points function as they do in SW:TCG (ie, all force users contribute to a force pool, so like a Palps or Yoda force battery) does not alter costing of any pieces, because thats a whole of game effect -
this also doesn't penalise Yoda or Palp force battery players, because essentially they get to use a mild 'Master of the Force +1" (via dint of the fact that you use Yodas force points, and yoda's force points that piece can access are from the total force pool). this cancels the 'you can't combine your own force points and Yoda's" - because that clause would be a paradox otherwise.

Also, retconning all force users to having Force Renewal 1 and MotF 2, across the board,
doesn't alter costs. This is due to the power creep of shooters and CE's, and will mainly be used quickly to move or reroll missed attacks.
So far, we thought this might have been insanely overpowered,
so we tried with old school Darth Nihilus, Darth Revan, Lord Vader and Darth Caedus,
Darth Sidious...
and other pieces such as Mace Windu, General, GOWK, Luminara, Yobuck etc...

frankly, all of those changes to how force functioned, proved useless against Vong,
and only increased survivability by 1 round. Only some fringe squads or all melee non-meta squads felt 'nerfed' by the Force changes...
which aren't gamed too much in the local game store anyhow.

Pieces like Kazdan Paratus, Cade Skywalker BH, Luke Commando, Hoth Luke, Luke&Yoda, Obi Wan Unleashed, The Apprentice and earlier Yodas or Palpatines,
these pieces seemed to be able to survive longer and actually use their abilities.

Thats the main problem for existing melee pieces and force users -
if you're not a Force Battery build, chances are you run out of FPs by turn 2 or 3... and its game over. Most melee builds and force user builds are built around the heavy - the single beatstick piece that is 60%+ of the cost. Most of the meta-competitive shooter squads or anti-melee/anti-force user squads by contrast, have a much lower avg piece cost, and fewer pieces that are 60%+ of the squad cost
So, i think squad assault etc, those abilities work well, it just seems that map determines a lot of the outcome for force users who aren't force battery builds.

Could there be abuse? sure. If the opposition to a force-improved squad didn't contain anti-melee, anti-force user or Direct Damage/Tempo Control or Override... the improved force users would probably be overpowered.
But, in the meta, these are pretty stock standard, and many force users are easily perplexed by Diplomat, Draw Fire, Superstealth and Direct AoE damage stuff...


Anywho,
if you found some of those houserules fun,
try altering the game/turn structure to be 'simultaneous' as in say, GOBS or W40K,
ie, both squads take all phases simultaneously, activate ALL pieces, move all pieces, resolve attacks simultaneously.
this mitigates any 'fibonacci turn biases' or zugzwang that your local group might cite... but it makes things like Opportunist or Cunning Attack 'always on' or 'always off' (or only applying to 'stunned' pieces etc) function differently.
Tempo Control is even more powerful in this situation, because you can choose to activate fewer than your whole squad.
leshippy
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:25:54 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/17/2009
Posts: 489
Bothan's have supplied this snippet of a transmission -

RsdreneEneeafxgeDpt4tcciedvtsiskarasaecserndaneltalaeiceosoaanafpthnnerijmaoiaosltbicsgaenhtitlsts][+-'
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, April 14, 2015 9:39:11 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
leshippy wrote:
Bothan's have supplied this snippet of a transmission -

RsdreneEneeafxgeDpt4tcciedvtsiskarasaecserndaneltalaeiceosoaanafpthnnerijmaoiaosltbicsgaenhtitlsts][+-'
Since this is in "The Jedi Way" post, it must mean that you have to BE A JEDI TO UNDERST....sorry, sorry...... I'm going back to the Sudoku.
Weeks
Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2015 3:09:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 1,195
Tonight 10EST. Sith Holo News Network on Talkshoe
Weeks
Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2015 6:09:15 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 1,195
Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker
Republic
85 pts
LARGE BASE

HP 160
DEF 22
ATK +16
DMG 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Melee Attack; Triple Attack
Greater Mobile Attack

I Cannot Interfere [Cannot benefit from Light Spirit or gain force powers from other characters]

Ranged Defense Expert [+4 to this character's save rolls against attacks and special abilities of non-adjacent enemies]

Soresu Style Mastery [When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11]

Stable Footing [Not slowed by difficult terrain or low objects]

Teamwork [At the end of this character's turn, it may immediately make an attack or use an ability that replaces attacks]

Force Powers
Force 3. Force Renewal 1; Master of the Force 2

Force Leap [Force 1: This turn, this character can move through enemy characters without provoking attacks of opportunity]

Force Push 2 [Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 20 damage; push back target 2 squares if Huge or smaller]

Lightsaber Sweep [Force 1, replaces attacks: Attack each adjacent enemy once]

Commander Effect
Republic allies with a Force rating and a lightsaber gain Soresu Style and Ranged Defense Expert.


"This time we do it together."
— Obi-Wan Kenobi

Designed by 2014 Gen Con Champion David Weeks
obiwan1knight
Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2015 6:12:40 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 150
Location: Voss
Awesome. And the flavor text is perfect!
CorellianComedian
Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2015 7:12:51 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,055
GOWK has officially been dethroned. This is AWESOME! Well done! Melee squads for the win! 11/10!
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 2:01:49 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/8/2010
Posts: 3,623
Wow! Amazing and this is sorely needed! Amazing job!
CorellianComedian
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:41:00 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,055
And to top it all off, it's really well-made! It's simple and easy to understand, but elegant and effective. It's really powerful (especially the CE), but it balances out because you are then denied two of the best Republic commanders for Melee pieces (GOWK and Gen Skywalker). It's just 85 points of raw awesomeness that cannot be ignored. Well done!

Weeks, can you win Gen Con next year too?
Weeks
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:58:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 1,195
CorellianComedian wrote:
And to top it all off, it's really well-made! It's simple and easy to understand, but elegant and effective. It's really powerful (especially the CE), but it balances out because you are then denied two of the best Republic commanders for Melee pieces (GOWK and Gen Skywalker). It's just 85 points of raw awesomeness that cannot be ignored. Well done!

Weeks, can you win Gen Con next year too?


Lol. I'd love to be able to win again. There are other talented people in the design process that helped so don't throw all the praise at me. I am glad players seem to like it so far. Hopefully it will be as fun to play as I think it will be.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 6:06:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
Magnificent, a truly superlative effort!

BlooMilk to Weeks and the Design team for bringing this piece to the community!
harryg
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 7:43:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/11/2013
Posts: 758
*Rubs eyes*. This is real? Jesus. Lemme go get some gasoline to pour on my shooters and then I'll be back with a matchbook and a well thought out post.
sephiroth99is
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 9:42:10 AM
Rank: Junk Golem
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 23
Wow!!! That's an awesome piece! What's the best squad you've seen so far with him?
Mando
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 10:10:06 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
sephiroth99is wrote:
Wow!!! That's an awesome piece! What's the best squad you've seen so far with him?


Depends on what squad build your looking for. There is a pretty good tank squad with Obi/Ani with Cin Dralig and Serra Keto.

You could probably do well with Obi/Ani with Mace, LotLS.

Adi Gallia and Obi/Ani are a good combo also for some really good shooter hate, and you can put Ferus Olin in there also to have a 100hp BG.

there are a lot of good possibilities, it just depends what your trying to accomplish.
juice man
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 10:36:19 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
I see OR shooter squads in the hazy future.
Weeks
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 11:03:56 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 1,195
sephiroth99is wrote:
Wow!!! That's an awesome piece! What's the best squad you've seen so far with him?


I think either Mace or a mini swarm of cheap Jedi would work best. 4x Jedi weapon master swarm seems fun. As far as the best squad goes that's up to whoever takes the time to come up with it.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 4:01:33 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
harryg wrote:
*Rubs eyes*. This is real? Jesus. Lemme go get some gasoline to pour on my shooters and then I'll be back with a matchbook and a well thought out post.


No just get your shooters inside the Talon bubble and let Lady Morrigan suppress the livin daylights out of the dynamic duo.
harryg
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 4:12:02 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/11/2013
Posts: 758
DARPH NADER wrote:
harryg wrote:
*Rubs eyes*. This is real? Jesus. Lemme go get some gasoline to pour on my shooters and then I'll be back with a matchbook and a well thought out post.


No just get your shooters inside the Talon bubble and let Lady Morrigan suppress the livin daylights out of the dynamic duo.

*runs to eBay to find more shooter figures and rubs burn stains out of tile floor*
jak
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 4:21:26 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 10/17/2010
Posts: 3,682
Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
DARPH NADER wrote:
Magnificent, a truly superlative effort!

BlooMilk to Weeks and the Design team for bringing this piece to the community!
AND the playtesters]
jen'ari
Posted: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:15:41 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
I dont know how to feel about this piece.
I love RDE!!
I love teamwork (real Legacy feel to it)
Love the GMA/Force Leap combo

i do not like the idea that an Obi-Wan and Anakin can give a Mace Windu or Yoda (the grand master) a lightsaber style (as if they are training them).

I also do not like Soresu Style Mastery like at all. I wish he had Soresu, Djem So, and Lightsaber Block. This way Anakin's djem so is represented.

I love the idea that shooters have a huge disadvantage, but think its a little overboard tbh. I do not know the state of Standard, maybe this is absolutely necessary, but think it will be a large NPE for people who love shooters tbh. they whole livelihood will be destroyed.

It has already been play tested? did it lose to shooter heavy squads?
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Main Forum RSS : RSS

Bloo Milk Theme Created by shinja
Powered by Yet Another Forum.net.
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.