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Well, the good thing is, if 10 pt. gambit doesn't work or if Daala is too strong, it can be changed.
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Mando wrote:sharron wrote:Although I don't feel like my minis life story needs to be posted, I am a little perturbed about where the game is at the moment.
I would first like to say that the last couple of times I've played I have said if things don't change I won't play competitively. That is pretty bitchy, and not everyone needs to hear it, also it's a bit of an exaggeration. so I apologise .
Second, my opinion and thoughts on the game at the moment, and a few things I dislike about it. I hate Daala. Which is the perfect way to put it, although it isn't an angry hate , it's a measured approach. :p I really don't think she is a gatekeeper, I will say again that Dr Daman has player all year with the same squad and lost only once. That to me isn't a gatekeeper. I don't want to undermine Dave and his achievements, he is definitely new Zealand's best player, but nobody should play 20 odd games with the same squad and lose only once, by 1 point, especially if the meta is as 'open' as we claim it is. I also think that if Star Wars was about little troopers shooting the crap out of everything, the empire would have won and we wouldn't be loving lightsabers, but blasters. I feel like she should have just been banned, and our meta not dominated by 5 pt troopers, Any squad with Jedi get pummelled. So what is my solution? I haven't figured it out yet, so feel free to give me pointers :) I truly think the game would be better without her. I enjoyed the thrawn dominance because it didn't beat EVERYTHING. It didn't even beat most things, unless a truly good player was playing it.
The other thing I would like to bring up is the 10 pt gambit. I don't have as much say in this as I do about Daala because I don't have the same experience with it. But playing in the vassal tournament with a squad which didn't have a piece that could safely secure gambit definitely hindered my play considerably. Being pinged 50 points in 5 rounds is just crazy, and I definitely suffered. I do understand that the squad I had would struggle, but in no way does the squad I took promote non engagement, and being stripped of 10 points a round is crazy. It's impractical for me to play that squad again, so it means I can't play a squad I really like because I can't secure gambit. I dislike the idea of a game being more about gambit than trying to play against your opponents squad. It looks open to abuse to me. And I feel like it isn't tested enough to throw into the game, when we do such a good job of testing things in every other aspect of the game, like new pieces.
I don't want to bag on anyone by writing this, or complain in any way, it is just good for thought, and I am curious to know what people think. Talk to me! Discuss. Or have I missed the train on this discussion? Because if I have I've just wasted a good 40 mins waiting for my flight, so thank you ;)
Lastly, I love this game. I love the people who play it, the community that it creates nationally and internationally, it is truly beautiful what it has done for our community in New Zealand :) Give me some feedback!
In the words of Kerry logan, maori Ora, Maori mate! I do have some minor concerns about the raise in gambit to 10pts. Mainly because we have more pieces with Forward positioning that can start the game in gambit. These pieces don't cost a ton. Of course they will be a big target and taken out quickly, but by the time the opponent does that, they might have gotten more than their costs worth in gambit points. Take the Geonosian with sonic Cannon figure. Costs super cheap (15pts?) but can start the game in gambit. It has a fair amount of HP and can live long enough to get at least a couple of rounds of gambit, i would think. I do think that swarm squads still have an advantage even with 10pt gambit, becuase they will just target the opponent's pieces trying to get gambit. I mostly think the 10pt gambit is a very good idea simply for the fact that a person can get a 3pt win against a player with 100pts of commanders sitting in his start area that are impossible to kill/reach in the allotted time. While I felt like we should have playtested both changes before the change was made. I have to say/point out that using a piece with Emplacement, or Forward positioning to capture gambit in the first round is no different than Imps running a piece 12, swapping, and running to Gambit. Almost any faction with a movement breaker has been able to capture gambit with a worthless piece for years. What I do like about 10pt gambit, is that it has to be captured by a 10pt piece. Which is usually a decent piece. In order for Daala to take it she has to send a Commander if I'm not mistaken. Anyways the point I'm trying to make is, don't be upset that pieces with forward positioning can take it, almost every faction has had a way to take it round 1 for years. Also, Sharron, I agree 100% about Daala. Ridiculous piece, that needs to be banned or nerfed harder. Trooper spams are bad for the game.
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juice man wrote:Well, the good thing is, if 10 pt. gambit doesn't work or if Daala is too strong, it can be changed.
yea, maybe right before GenCon AGAIN 
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Mando wrote:I do have some minor concerns about the raise in gambit to 10pts. Mainly because we have more pieces with Forward positioning that can start the game in gambit. These pieces don't cost a ton. Of course they will be a big target and taken out quickly, but by the time the opponent does that, they might have gotten more than their costs worth in gambit points. Take the Geonosian with sonic Cannon figure. Costs super cheap (15pts?) but can start the game in gambit. It has a fair amount of HP and can live long enough to get at least a couple of rounds of gambit, i would think. I do think that swarm squads still have an advantage even with 10pt gambit, becuase they will just target the opponent's pieces trying to get gambit. I mostly think the 10pt gambit is a very good idea simply for the fact that a person can get a 3pt win against a player with 100pts of commanders sitting in his start area that are impossible to kill/reach in the allotted time. When it comes to characters with forward position or emplacement the majority of those options would be horrible choices in Competetive play. Say I put 15 points of my squad into a bacta tank. Sure if I am lucky it will give me 2 rounds of gambit, but it is definitely dead, without a doubt, dead. Do best case scenario I get 5 points on my opponent? That's a bad trade in my opinion. Sure I have a 5 point lead, but I have already lost 7.5 percent of my squad. Not good... What happens if you do have a piece that can score gambit at the end of round 1? It encourages engagement to happen sooner, exactly what gambit needs to do.(and hasn't been doing) Mando the situations you are describing are very very beneficial when you can afford to play for a 2 point win.(in my own mind at least) When you just want to eke out a win against your opponent. The 3-2-1 system makes it so you need to play for 3 point wins because tie breaker wins (2 point wins) are less valuable.
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I'm sure no one except you maybe would play a bacta tank in competitive play
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sharron wrote:I don't want to bag on anyone by writing this, or complain in any way, it is just good for thought, and I am curious to know what people think. Talk to me! Discuss. Or have I missed the train on this discussion? Because if I have I've just wasted a good 40 mins waiting for my flight, so thank you ;)
Lastly, I love this game. I love the people who play it, the community that it creates nationally and internationally, it is truly beautiful what it has done for our community in New Zealand :) Give me some feedback!
In the words of Kerry logan, maori Ora, Maori mate! No worries man, I have a question about your squad. What piece did you used to get gambit with? And I am always willing to discuss 10 point gambit =)
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jak wrote:I'm sure no one except you maybe would play a bacta tank in competitive play You don't say? And here I thought it was tier 1.... Well dang better tweak my gencon squad 
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Using the Bacta Tank (or Geonosian Cannon) on a map like Spynet HQ comes to mind as an easy way to get gambit with the new system; put it in one of the rooms, you can even LOCK it in later, if you are desperate enough for points, and if you put it on the top one (which seems to be on the less popular part of the map), the opponent just may never have the pieces to spare to go out of it's way from the battle to attack and kill a 40 HP/DR 10 piece.
Overall I think 10 point gambit is a good idea, this is just something that kidna came to mind as an 'easy' way to hold gambit for at least a couple rounds. Maybe not too realistic a strategy, however, as not all squads will be playable at Spynet, and you won't always win the map roll anyhow.
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pegolego wrote:Using the Bacta Tank (or Geonosian Cannon) on a map like Spynet HQ comes to mind as an easy way to get gambit with the new system; put it in one of the rooms, you can even LOCK it in later, if you are desperate enough for points, and if you put it on the top one (which seems to be on the less popular part of the map), the opponent just may never have the pieces to spare to go out of it's way from the battle to attack and kill a 40 HP/DR 10 piece.
Overall I think 10 point gambit is a good idea, this is just something that kidna came to mind as an 'easy' way to hold gambit for at least a couple rounds. Maybe not too realistic a strategy, however, as not all squads will be playable at Spynet, and you won't always win the map roll anyhow. There have always been easy ways to catch gambit. Emplacement has been around for a long time, this idea is nothing new. Yeah you can drop a Bacta tank with Emplacement there. Chances are the squad you are facing can catch it in the first round as well. Most competitive squads have a movement breaker and a way to catch it in the first round.
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That's also only possible on one side of Spynet (the right side). So you would have to either have your opponent win the map roll and pick that map, or for you to win the map roll and your opponent to defer setup. It's a lot more likely that either your opponent wins the map roll and picks their non-Spynet map, or that you win map roll and they set up first.
This is not nearly the most abusive use of maps if you are able to get both the map and side you want. Because that happens so rarely, though, those strategies aren't something you should build your squad to take advantage of.
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There are vset minis I don't like its as simple as that, but then again can any of us say we liked every mini WOTC did? go back and read some of those old posts again.
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dreadtech wrote:There are vset minis I don't like its as simple as that, but then again can any of us say we liked every mini WOTC did? go back and read some of those old posts again.
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop.
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TheHutts wrote:dreadtech wrote:There are vset minis I don't like its as simple as that, but then again can any of us say we liked every mini WOTC did? go back and read some of those old posts again.
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop. Yes, I hear ya. The meta feels more restricted now than it has in 2 years. I hate it when I'm forced to play X or to play Anti-X or to lose. That's what Sharron's (rightfully, IMHO) saying. It's not nearly as bad as it was back in the WotC days, so maybe I've been spoiled by the pre-Daala meta, but the game isn't as much fun now as it was before Daala. And several months ago, I did say that I didn't think we nerfed her hard enough...I wish I was wrong. But we can talk about preferences all day long and still get nowhere. Here's where it really touches down, though: at the Vassal Regional, I asked where Tim (MinitankHT) was...he was the guy who won it last year, and who has consistently been both a superb player and playtester. The answer from on of the NZ guys (sorry, I forget which one) was, "He stopped playing because of Daala." To me, that's the real tragedy: superb players (and great guys!) leaving the game because of what an overpowered squad does to the game. It's a game, and therefore it's primarily about enjoyment...when it stops being enjoyable, people stop playing.
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TheHutts wrote:dreadtech wrote:There are vset minis I don't like its as simple as that, but then again can any of us say we liked every mini WOTC did? go back and read some of those old posts again.
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop. Curious - what is Daman's post errata record against yobuck/lancer/luke+Leia?
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TheHutts wrote:
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop.
Well when you hand her the keys to the kingdom, you can't really complain that she becomes ruler. When I saw what was run at the NZ nationals, my eyes almost popped out of my head.
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TimmerB123 wrote:TheHutts wrote:
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop.
Well when you hand her the keys to the kingdom, you can't really complain that she becomes ruler. When I saw what was run at the NZ nationals, my eyes almost popped out of my head. lol, so a nerfed piece still dominates and you want to say well, run strafe/gallop, (which the designers just nerfed to hell and back). I am so sick of the designers and their attitudes towards the Daala problem. it is like you guys only care about YOUR game instead of the COMMUNITTY game that it is. Oh we will wait til gencon before we worry or even admit she is a problem, to late SHE IS A PROBLEM people are leaving the game because of her. Oh wait, this isn't happening in America so it doesn't matter. makes me sick to my stomach. I wish one designer would come out and say ok, there is enough evidence to show that she is a major problem, we made a mistake, the play testers made a mistake, as a community we just missed that she would be this good.... then ban her and move on with our lives, but no, this collection of people wants to say, well, just run yoda on kybuck and you'll be fine and never admit that hey, we made a really big mistake.
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TimmerB123 wrote:TheHutts wrote:
To be fair, Sharron's viewpoint is based on an entire year of tournaments in New Zealand, where Daala has won everything worth winning. It's not just a simple "I don't like this" piece statement, after playing against it once. Maybe there are facets of our meta (not much gallop/strafe getting played) that make it easier for Daala to dominate here, but she just dominates against anything that's not strafe/gallop.
Well when you hand her the keys to the kingdom, you can't really complain that she becomes ruler. When I saw what was run at the NZ nationals, my eyes almost popped out of my head. And that is why its a problem. We're saying that people should be running Daala counters like lancers or Yobuck to see how they fare, but then it turns into Daala or Daala counters and nobody wants that. I don't believe that Daala is as bad as she's being made out to be. She wasn't exactly handed the keys to the NZ Nationals kingdom. I almost lost in my semi-final to Darth O. He missed some vital shots that would've completely turned the tide in his favour. Myself and TheHutts are probably the only people to have run Yobuck at competitive levels and at NZ nationals we both ran Daala. Mike Moore Smuggler is probably the best Lancer player that we have and he wasn't able to play that day. Because of that, Daala was probably never going to be troubled by those squads at Nationals. FlyingArrow wrote:Curious - what is Daman's post errata record against yobuck/lancer/luke+Leia? I only played against the Lancer twice in the competitive arena this season and easily won both games. BUT.... those games were at a 222pt tournament. I played against a naboo death shot troopers squad and won that game in 10 minutes, but only due to a bad positioning of Mon Mothma. I don't think Daala is a gatekeeper. I don;t think I'm being egotistical when I say that I'm very very good with my Daala/Raxus squad and that's why I've won so many games with her. It's not as easy as "run a trooper and shot stuff". There are some very tactical moves that you have to make to turn a losing match up into a winning one. In saying that, she DEFINITELY doesn't need Imperial Reserves 20 and I think it should be removed.
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Echo24 wrote:That's also only possible on one side of Spynet (the right side). So you would have to either have your opponent win the map roll and pick that map, or for you to win the map roll and your opponent to defer setup. It's a lot more likely that either your opponent wins the map roll and picks their non-Spynet map, or that you win map roll and they set up first.
This is not nearly the most abusive use of maps if you are able to get both the map and side you want. Because that happens so rarely, though, those strategies aren't something you should build your squad to take advantage of. I so disagree. When I played Gungans I wanted the outside of jedi temple. The odds of me getting the side I wanted was pretty easy knowing the opp 90% of the time would pick the other side. I didnt build my squad around the map but knew if I won map that my opp odds are didnt know what was coming. Sames goes with when I played Arica on Rancor and Yodabuck on jedi temple. My point is that you just need to find a squad that works on a uneven sided map and make the so called bad side work for you.
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Jonnyb815 wrote:Echo24 wrote:That's also only possible on one side of Spynet (the right side). So you would have to either have your opponent win the map roll and pick that map, or for you to win the map roll and your opponent to defer setup. It's a lot more likely that either your opponent wins the map roll and picks their non-Spynet map, or that you win map roll and they set up first.
This is not nearly the most abusive use of maps if you are able to get both the map and side you want. Because that happens so rarely, though, those strategies aren't something you should build your squad to take advantage of. I so disagree. When I played Gungans I wanted the outside of jedi temple. The odds of me getting the side I wanted was pretty easy knowing the opp 90% of the time would pick the other side. I didnt build my squad around the map but knew if I won map that my opp odds are didnt know what was coming. Sames goes with when I played Arica on Rancor and Yodabuck on jedi temple. My point is that you just need to find a squad that works on a uneven sided map and make the so called bad side work for you. But at the same time, if you're going to a tournament as most are here (and argue from the tournament-ideology), you can't necessarily build a team catered to a map, as you're going to be playing several maps.
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My perspective from running Daala and 18 Snowtroopers at NZ Con was that it was too easy in my games that weren't against Dr Daman. My games against Cloaked squads (Vong and Darth O's Klats) could have been tight if I'd made multiple mistakes or rolled really badly, but I'd pick Daala to win the vast majority of the time. With the Snowtroopers I felt like I was winning through just overwhelming numbers and damage - most squads can't kill the troopers fast enough to stay in the hunt, and while it takes a little bit of thought to set up and make sure you get your squad bonuses, it's certainly not the fiddliest squad to run. With 28 activations and access to Ozzel, almost nothing outactivates me. I obviously have major problems with strafe/gallop, but I think there are very few other matchups around that are worse than a 50/50 chance, and plenty of matchups that are very straightforward.
Raxus are quite different - with 10 hit points, they're vulnerable to Momaw + Movement Breaker - that's a weakness that takes good play to get around. And Daman's Raxus squad also has more tricks - the deep striking repulsor sled, the Imperial Officer cannon shot; it's not just a run up and shoot squad like my Snowtroopers were. It's a really well put together squad, and Daman obviously runs it well. I actually think the problematic things in the squad are the auxiliary support; if anything, it's maybe Needa, who basically means his Raxus almost never miss against pieces with 18 defense or lower, that's the biggest problem.
And then muddying the waters, Elite Scout Trooper builds are also an option, and with 50 hp they can withstand strafe and gallop, and probably other Snowtrooper builds with less activations, but more power with Piett for Opportunist.
I actually really enjoy playing Charging Trooper squads, but they feel a little turbo-charged at the moment, as they have a lot of good matchups across the meta. In an ideal world, if I was starting everything from scratch, I'd do the following:
- remove Reserves from Daala
- stop Daala and Pellaeon from being in the same squad - then tanks would have more of a chance against her, area force powers would work, and she couldn't access tempo control unless she mainlined Ozzel.
- I'd probably scratch Needa altogether, he's cream that the Raxus Primes don't need.
- maybe take 1 off the Snowtrooper Officer's rapport.
* I'm not really pushing for any of this to be done, except maybe the Reserves, but it's my analysis of why Daala is a little over the top, IMO.
I'm certainly not militant about it - I think the best scenario is maybe a few mid-range mass killers coming out in set 9 (I think that's been hinted at already?), and making it riskier to run paper again. I also think the meta has cleared up a little - it seems obvious now that rock squads have problems with Daala, which totally opens the door for Yobuck at GenCon, and I think Nader's prediction of 3 Republic squads in the GenCon top 8 is very realistic.
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