|
Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 9/23/2008 Posts: 1,487 Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
|
Look, I have to say the game has come a long way with having Swarms viable - kudos. But, when I read a squad that has 18 pieces on one type, then I question whether it is good for the game.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010 Posts: 564
|
kezzamachine wrote:Look, I have to say the game has come a long way with having Swarms viable - kudos. But, when I read a squad that has 18 pieces on one type, then I question whether it is good for the game. +1 This!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
kezzamachine wrote:Look, I have to say the game has come a long way with having Swarms viable - kudos. But, when I read a squad that has 18 pieces on one type, then I question whether it is good for the game. At least I didn't have 21 like the PA/MD Regional Winner..... http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/138208/bare-bones-snowtroopers
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/26/2011 Posts: 951
|
theultrastar wrote:kezzamachine wrote:Look, I have to say the game has come a long way with having Swarms viable - kudos. But, when I read a squad that has 18 pieces on one type, then I question whether it is good for the game. +1 This! I will see your +1 and raise you a +2
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/29/2008 Posts: 1,784 Location: Canada
|
Hmmm, several months ago I seem to recall saying that I was afraid we didn't nerf Daala hard enough. I also said that only time would tell.
I'm not normally one to say "I told you so"...but wait: I AM, this time!
|
|
Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
|
kezzamachine wrote:Look, I have to say the game has come a long way with having Swarms viable - kudos. But, when I read a squad that has 18 pieces on one type, then I question whether it is good for the game. I honestly don't see what's wrong with a squad like that. It's bad if one squad is unbeatable, and it's bad when a squad doesn't engage. But if it plays for engagement and the squad plays quickly what difference does it make if all the pieces are the same or if it is two one hundred point pieces?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/30/2008 Posts: 2,093
|
not any different than 18 poggle bombs or 18 mouse droids.
It's not Daala so much as the fact as it is a product of all the scissors hate that has come out in the last couple of sets.
I went to 6 (yes 6) regionals, and I don't recall seeing a single Yoda on Kybuck. And I believe that besides the 2 lancers I ran in PA, I only saw 2 other Lancers (both by mike G at MI and again in Kokomo). I'm sure that Thehutts has the exact breakdown somewhere.
I also think that players LIKE to play semi-balanced rock squads. 2-4 main type attackers. When both of those things happen, the meta is ripe for pure paper squads to tear through it.
I will be curious to see how many players play Daala at Gencon, and for those players that don't what the reason is.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
Carrying on from my swiss report on the previous page, finals:
vs Sharron (Revan SL, Kaan, Elite Supercommando, Mando the Lesser, Lobot) Sharron won map, so we played on Tomb of the Acolytes, which is fast becoming my least favourite Restricted Map - it takes a long time to get across it. I deferred set up, so I got to set up in the opposite corner from him, to leave Revan a long way from my commanders. I bought in Needa for the SSO, since there aren't a lot of doors and I didn't need It's A Trap. I left Pellaeon back with my commanders, divided my troops up into four pods so they could advance through the four different passages, and blew one door to make my commander effects almost boardwide. Second round I got a guy into gambit, so I got a lead. After Sharron was finished in round 3, I charged some guys forward to shoot the Supercommando and Mandalore the Lesser, and I dropped them before the end of the round. I could see the Revan/Kaan explosion coming, but was happy with the trade, since I'd already taken the two Mandalorians without much cost, and was only going to lose 5-6 troopers in exchange for Kaan as well. He won initiative and deferred, so I charged one of the in danger Snowtroopers up the board to shoot Lobot. He ran in Revan, taking an AOO, and swapped in Kaan. Kaan blew, and took down 5-6 troopers - at this point I had traded 7-8 troopers for 3/4 of his squad. After that, I was in a huge lead, and I just needed to push forward and take down Revan. Revan barely made a lightsaber defense save, I hit every shot without using Needa, and got a few crits as well. It was ridiculous dice, and it just made a very difficult matchup horrible for Sharron - there wasn't much he could do to kill my guys quickly enough, and he was vocally frustrated with having to play Daala even before the game began.
And even if he'd won, he would have just have to play Daala again.....
vs Dr Daman again. This time Dr Daman won map roll, so we played on Anchorhead. I kept the SOS in, but in hindsight I probably should have used Needa. Again my rolls weren't great, and along with the Imperial Officer 2-1 trade trick, I was a bit behind on the exchange - I'd lost something like 8-9 Snowtroopers vs 6-7 Raxus, but still in the game. I'd just charged up a trooper at the end of the round to kill a Raxus, and if I'd won initiative I was poised to charge in and take down the Repulsor Sled. On the key initiative, I rolled a 4 and Daman rolled a 6 - so he both won initiative and got four extra Raxus - in such a terse game, it was enough to tip the balance totally his way, and he confirmed it by rolling another 6 next initiative. By the end of the game I managed to kill 12 of his Raxus Prime Troopers, but he still had 8 left.... Full credit to Daman, who's obviously really good with his Raxus squad (I think he's lost in a tournament game once), and who has won four NZ 200 point majors in a row, which is a fabulous achievement. I feel like Raxus vs Snows should be a 50/50 matchup, but Daman's very well oiled with his squad.
So altogether, I played six squads, all of which did reasonably well overall - Hayden who finished at 11th (out of 19) was my lowest ranked opponent. Three of my games were cake walks, two were comfortable wins after a tense start - I do feel like Daala has a big advantage over most of the popular squads out there. I do enjoy running her, as I like the movement that her squads have, but some of the games on Saturday were simply too easy and not much fun.
|
|
Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 9/23/2008 Posts: 1,487 Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
|
urbanjedi wrote:not any different than 18 poggle bombs or 18 mouse droids. Oh, don't worry, I have a problem with them too!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/2/2011 Posts: 203 Location: Upper Hutt, Wellington, New Zealand
|
TheHutts wrote:I feel like Raxus vs Snows should be a 50/50 matchup, but Daman's very well oiled with his squad. It's true, I oil each one of my Troopers before every game. that's my secret
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/30/2009 Posts: 1,389 Location: New Zealand ( kind of by Australia)
|
Dr Daman wrote:TheHutts wrote:I feel like Raxus vs Snows should be a 50/50 matchup, but Daman's very well oiled with his squad. It's true, I oil each one of my Troopers before every game. that's my secret Guys I found out how to beat Dave. Clone Trooper with Flamethrower swarm. That oil is going up in flames
|
|
Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
|
urbanjedi wrote:not any different than 18 poggle bombs or 18 mouse droids. 18 Mouse Droids usually means an attempt to avoid engagement. Either a wall or out-activate and smash (or both).
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008 Posts: 4,729 Location: Chicago
|
It boggles my mind that nobody ran Yodabuck.
We all knew for 100% SURE that at least a few top players would be running Daala, and yet there were few real effective swarm counters.
No Luke and Leia on Speeder? No Durge on Speeder?
I could have told you that Ani-stap and Revan/Kaan swap wasn't gonna cut it. (And it's not like I don't know those squads, I've won a regional with each).
Grievous on Wheelbike has potential, but the build wasn't right.
Don't take this the wrong way, all credit due to David and Graham. They not only played very well, but they beat a group that knew what was coming.
I'm still just shaking my head about the fact that nobody played a true counter.
Prediction: You heard it here first. The US will be the opposite. Tons of Daala hate, especially Yodabuck. Sky buck or some variants. I know for sure at least a few top players will play him. Bill will play him (and therefore if Matt Peterson comes he'll probably play him too.) Trevor likely will as well. Wouldn't doubt if Lou does, and one of the Indiana guys too.
Few will play Daala. My guess is one or two experienced players, but then maybe a few lesser experienced ones as well.
Daala will not win GenCon.
Start working on your Yodabuck counters - that's what the US is gonna see.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
I guess I would be reluctant to play Daala at GenCon if I suspected billiv15 was coming with Yobuck. I do think that a well run Yobuck squad would do very well against the field at NZ Nationals, and have a good shot at winning the whole thing, but I do have my doubts about any of the strafers.
Strafers would do well against Daala, but if we look what else is in the top 6 - - 10 Klats are a nightmare - and if they can get Disruptive safe near gambit too, your bombs don't work either. Grievous would do well against Klats, but I'm always deterred by the Speed 8, and he still gets affected by Buzz Droids. - The Cloaked Vong can clog everything up with Tso'asu. The strafer can probably win, but it won't be a fun game. - Luke Hero of Endor has Djem So at +18 for 30s with twin - a Lancer really doesn't want to touch him. - Lobot can bring in LIN Demolitionmech and/or Buzz Droids
I don't know that any of these things are insurmountable for a good player, but I certainly didn't feel like I was good enough at running strafe squads to counter these kind of things. I'd also be worried about Tantives; even though they didn't show up on the day, a Tantive squad did well at LowerHuttACon in May. There's a lot of strafe hate out there, and I think you have to be a really good strafe player to deal with them.
A lot of the players who ended up in the top half of the table were running things that had something to help them hang in with Daala. Revan + access to Momaw is good against Raxus. Cloaked stuff - Vong and Klats at least put up a good fight. Han can turn into Han in STA with accurate, and take down some troopers. Gungans with R2 and double-Momaw are pretty decent against Daala too.
It feels people were too worried about running strafe, and instead chose to run other stuff that could hold its own against Daala, but it came up short, since Daala is really strong.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/9/2008 Posts: 4,729 Location: Chicago
|
TheHutts wrote:I guess I would be reluctant to play Daala at GenCon if I suspected billiv15 was coming with Yobuck. Count on it
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
TimmerB123 wrote:TheHutts wrote:I guess I would be reluctant to play Daala at GenCon if I suspected billiv15 was coming with Yobuck. Count on it If my memory is right, the two players who've placed highly with Yobuck at a 200 point NZ tournament are .... Dr Daman (5th in NZ Nationals 2012) and myself (2nd at LowerHuttACon 2011) - so the two people who were running Daala. Darth O did respectably with Yobuck at Nationals last year too. What would you run with Yobuck? I know Skybuck's the popular choice, but I'd probably be tempted to run Mace and Yobuck swap - Mace can handle big baddies, and hope he gets a lucky crit or two against bad matchups eg Talon Karrde squads.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/2/2008 Posts: 522 Location: Chicago
|
I think the Yobuck/r2/Panaka/mas gimmick is just a great base, like sideous, lancer and BDO. They have a lot of power and can complement almost to your own play style. He's got to be able to get out, do his damage and escape.
I found Qunilan Vos to be a nice cheap piece of power leaving you enough for rex or some other clones.
including Mace might make you a bit too reliant on him. I think you need some range support, some reliable swap fodder.
I think Yobuck and gungans might be possible again. You get deep double war throat potential, shield bearers and cestas with yobuck smashing your opponents fodder. Perhaps some cheap heal for SD damage.
The power of Skybuck is largely in the 120 dmg hit from Dash, although you could swap him for pieces like Morrigan. Lower power, but deeper threat.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/2/2008 Posts: 522 Location: Chicago
|
TheHutts wrote: Sharron won map, so we played on Tomb of the Acolytes, which is fast becoming my least favourite Restricted Map - it takes a long time to get across it.
that's hilarious. I designed it so you could traverse 1/4 of the map automatically. Seems i have failed, epically. Why is it taking you so long to cross?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
It might just be me - it's certainly seeing a lot of play.
I just think the pathways to gambit take a while to traverse - it's 23 squares to get into gambit if my counting is right, and it means delayed engagement. On the other hand, you probably don't need to be careful about your first round plays, since you're fairly safe from any fire in the first round, unless the other squad is uber-deepstrike. I've also tried running a Quednak on it, and it's easy to block against it with all the narrow corridors near the centre.
It has good points as well - it's a good melee map - and I'm certainly happy for it to be on restricted, I just don't particularly enjoy playing it.
|
|
Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 8,428
|
I played Lou on that map at the PA regionals. He had a Quednak against Daala and as soon as he missed one attack he was stuck and couldn't move any further because it was at the bottleneck. Of course, the miss came on the first or second trooper.
|
|
Guest |