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Darth_Reignir wrote:AndyHatton wrote:I don't think it's as easy as "we'll just change it back!" When people leave they leave. They will move on to a new game and even if you find them and tell them all the things that were fixed there is a good chance they just won't care.
I've tried to get the people I played with pre-V-Sets to play again a dozen times, no go. They've moved on. This quote is a thing of beauty. "We can't change the rules otherwise people would leave! Remember that time all those people left because of the V-Set? See, they've moved on." WAT That is 100% a misinterpretation of my quote. People moved on when WotC stopped producing the game, regardless of what the V-sets did there were people who had already moved on when WotC was done, nothing was going to bring them back. One guy played with the V-sets for a while, and then he just found other games. It happens. My point is once you lose people no matter what the reason its very hard to get them back.
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AndyHatton wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:AndyHatton wrote:I don't think it's as easy as "we'll just change it back!" When people leave they leave. They will move on to a new game and even if you find them and tell them all the things that were fixed there is a good chance they just won't care.
I've tried to get the people I played with pre-V-Sets to play again a dozen times, no go. They've moved on. This quote is a thing of beauty. "We can't change the rules otherwise people would leave! Remember that time all those people left because of the V-Set? See, they've moved on." WAT That is 100% a misinterpretation of my quote. People moved on when WotC stopped producing the game, regardless of what the V-sets did there were people who had already moved on when WotC was done, nothing was going to bring them back. One guy played with the V-sets for a while, and then he just found other games. It happens. My point is once you lose people no matter what the reason its very hard to get them back. And I am telling you that I've lost more than a dozen players -- a whole community in the Quad Cities has stopped playing. Great, huzzah! The V-Set turned them away. Let's move on. Let's talk about making the game better for the last of us who play, rather than continue to swear fealty to a design that has consistently resulted in the same butthurt and NPE that has been going on for at least 3 years.
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gholli69 wrote:Just a quick thought to ponder, the design team may already be making things or trying to at least to help out our current situation, but we as players won't necessarily see that help for quite some time as the next set won't arrive until early next year. So even though it may seem like nothing is being done, that may not necessarily be the case. It will also be interesting to see how long it takes for the balance team to give some sort of feedback as to possible issues they may be looking at first and foremost now that gencon is behind us as well as most of the tournaments for the year. I think maybe polls like what ATM has opened up here before might be a good way for them to gauge where the community in general would like to see their attention focused, but I'm pretty sure they already have a decent list of things to look at for the rest of this year with some of the recently banned and eratted pieces and all the angst over high acts, cheap mice, double swap, and Boba AFH. It may be a good time to table this discussion for about 6 months and see where we are a little closer to the release of set 11, as it seems like it will take time to address those concerns and instead of all this infighting just leading us in circles we could be enjoying set 10 and seeing just how much it may or may not have already helped. As a member of the PT committee on V11, i can assure you that NPE's that have been brought up (mice dumping for ex) are being addressed. I won't give any spoilers as that is not my job to do, but I want people to know that issues that are being brought up as npe's are being discussed heavily. Thanks for being patient and moving to table the discussion till about 6 months! I think a lot of the things being said here will be trivial come V11. High activations will always be a problem for sure, but it does make a difference when high activation squads only have 20 acts compared o 30. V10 will shift the game more towards melee IMO, and that was one of the goals in the set.
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Mando wrote:gholli69 wrote:Just a quick thought to ponder, the design team may already be making things or trying to at least to help out our current situation, but we as players won't necessarily see that help for quite some time as the next set won't arrive until early next year. So even though it may seem like nothing is being done, that may not necessarily be the case. It will also be interesting to see how long it takes for the balance team to give some sort of feedback as to possible issues they may be looking at first and foremost now that gencon is behind us as well as most of the tournaments for the year. I think maybe polls like what ATM has opened up here before might be a good way for them to gauge where the community in general would like to see their attention focused, but I'm pretty sure they already have a decent list of things to look at for the rest of this year with some of the recently banned and eratted pieces and all the angst over high acts, cheap mice, double swap, and Boba AFH. It may be a good time to table this discussion for about 6 months and see where we are a little closer to the release of set 11, as it seems like it will take time to address those concerns and instead of all this infighting just leading us in circles we could be enjoying set 10 and seeing just how much it may or may not have already helped. As a member of the PT committee on V11, i can assure you that NPE's that have been brought up (mice dumping for ex) are being addressed. I won't give any spoilers as that is not my job to do, but I want people to know that issues that are being brought up as npe's are being discussed heavily. Thanks for being patient and moving to table the discussion till about 6 months! I think a lot of the things being said here will be trivial come V11. High activations will always be a problem for sure, but it does make a difference when high activation squads only have 20 acts compared o 30. V10 will shift the game more towards melee IMO, and that was one of the goals in the set. This thread is pretty lively -- it doesn't sound like we're tabling it at all.
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Great. That's fine, don't pretend that what I said justifies your point or lines up with your experience. You can speak for yourself just as I can speak to my experience. That was my experience.
I'm simply raising the counter point to your argument that it is easy to change the rules again. This game has hemorrhaged players, there is no denying that. I'm just saying rules changes should be considered cautiously not that there shouldn't be (or aren't) solutions to problems that will please a large portion of people still playing. Just because people are upset doesn't mean we need to throw caution to the wind.
I am personally not in favor of massive rules changes. Changing Mouse Droids fine, I don't think we need to get rid of Booming Voice or make all CEs ranged or anything like that.
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AndyHatton wrote:Great. That's fine, don't pretend that what I said justifies your point or lines up with your experience. You can speak for yourself just as I can speak to my experience. That was my experience.
I'm simply raising the counter point to your argument that it is easy to change the rules again. This game has hemorrhaged players, there is no denying that. I'm just saying rules changes should be considered cautiously not that there shouldn't be (or aren't) solutions to problems that will please a large portion of people still playing. Just because people are upset doesn't mean we need to throw caution to the wind.
I am personally not in favor of massive rules changes. Changing Mouse Droids fine, I don't think we need to get rid of Booming Voice or make all CEs ranged or anything like that. i think they should just make mice always cost at least 3, change boba and the governor. If you want to play without booming voice, or with all ranged c.e. there is legacy for that.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:And I am telling you that I've lost more than a dozen players -- a whole community in the Quad Cities has stopped playing. Great, huzzah! The V-Set turned them away. From 2010 (before the release of the first v-set): Darth_Reignir wrote:A small group of gamers and I are a pocket of gamers here in Illinois. We have 4 usual players and maybe 10 players total. Recently, a few of us in the group have been getting burnt out on SWM, whether is from have a losing streak, seeing the same teams over (and over, and over, and over), or just not having fun with the game. I am trying to keep the group alive, but it's becoming increasingly difficult. We're the only people (that we know of) in the Quad Cities, Illinois, that play. I've tried going on road-trip to unite some players, but there are none to be found. I still think that the v-sets have done a pretty good job overall. There are a few rough edges that need some work, but we're getting close to 5 years. As a counter point, the New Zealand group has grown to around 30 active players from a small casual group since WOTC ceased production.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:AndyHatton wrote:Great. That's fine, don't pretend that what I said justifies your point or lines up with your experience. You can speak for yourself just as I can speak to my experience. That was my experience.
I'm simply raising the counter point to your argument that it is easy to change the rules again. This game has hemorrhaged players, there is no denying that. I'm just saying rules changes should be considered cautiously not that there shouldn't be (or aren't) solutions to problems that will please a large portion of people still playing. Just because people are upset doesn't mean we need to throw caution to the wind.
I am personally not in favor of massive rules changes. Changing Mouse Droids fine, I don't think we need to get rid of Booming Voice or make all CEs ranged or anything like that. i think they should just make mice always cost at least 3, change boba and the governor. If you want to play without booming voice, or with all ranged c.e. there is legacy for that. I at some point suggested a floor rule that rapport be changed from "Should a situation ever arise in which different characters’ Rapport abilities could reduce a character’s cost below 1, its minimum cost is 1." to "cost below 3 and minimum cost 3" and I stand by that suggestion. I have less of a problem with Boba. Imperial Governor probably needs a second go especially because I seem to remember reading somewhere NO ONE brought up Double Swap while playtesting.
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Boba is very competitively costed. But on the other hand, he excels against swarms (because he can kill three pieces per round) and against tech (accurate shot). I did like Jim's post that if the meta becomes more low activation and less techy, Boba might not be the best choice anymore (although his extra 30 hit points over Cad Bane are quite significant). But generally I personally like having a top tier Boba, and I think that he's a distraction from several more important issues that need dealing with first.
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AndyHatton wrote:Imperial Governor probably needs a second go especially because I seem to remember reading somewhere NO ONE brought up Double Swap while playtesting.
What surprises me is that this was even on the table in the first place given the playtesting of the original Flim and the overt concern regarding the double swap back then. It seems memories are short. Returning to Cryostasis...
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TheHutts wrote:Boba is very competitively costed. But on the other hand, he excels against swarms (because he can kill three pieces per round) and against tech (accurate shot). I did like Jim's post that if the meta becomes more low activation and less techy, Boba might not be the best choice anymore (although his extra 30 hit points over Cad Bane are quite significant). But generally I personally like having a top tier Boba, and I think that he's a distraction from several more important issues that need dealing with first. Agree with this totally, Boba is just the better Meta choice right now. Comparing the two Cad is still no slouch all these years later, and I too like having a top rank Boba (as someone who played Boba, Merc at a PA regional in 2014 before better Boba was out.
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As they say, the only way to fix a broken piece is to make an even more broken piece.
Maybe in V-Set 11 we'll get a 47pt Boba Fett, that way we can stick another mouse droid in there too.
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Wasn't saying that set 11 will fix everything so lets wait for that. My general message was that we have a new balance team that will be looking at issues and hopefully addressing some of them shortly, and that the design team may be addressing some issues as well, but that those changes are not going to be immediate as it takes time to develop the set. I believe that some of the stuff we got in set 10 which was just released will help swing the meta some and that means that 1: either the designers of set 10 just got lucky when they chose what to design; or 2: they knew some of these issues existed a good 6 months ago and made an attempt to work towards a solution. How effective that attempt was remains to be seen just yet, but I for one am looking forward to finding out!
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AndyHatton wrote:TheHutts wrote:Boba is very competitively costed. But on the other hand, he excels against swarms (because he can kill three pieces per round) and against tech (accurate shot). I did like Jim's post that if the meta becomes more low activation and less techy, Boba might not be the best choice anymore (although his extra 30 hit points over Cad Bane are quite significant). But generally I personally like having a top tier Boba, and I think that he's a distraction from several more important issues that need dealing with first. Agree with this totally, Boba is just the better Meta choice right now. Comparing the two Cad is still no slouch all these years later, and I too like having a top rank Boba (as someone who played Boba, Merc at a PA regional in 2014 before better Boba was out. I agree with this assessment, but that doesn't mean that I won't entertain thoughts on dealing with Boba. After all, early in the regional season I said I didn't think mouse droids were a problem and they seemed to populate the meta soon after. I can tell you that we're looking at a number of issues already on the balance committee, and we're reading these threads on Bloomilk. We need your opinions, examples, and suggestions to be able to make the best changes for the community. What we don't need is to have to sift through sarcasm and arguement just because someone doesn't agree with you. I am seeing stuff written by people I've had disagreements with in the past that actually makes a lot of sense. I see people that have had short fuses in the past turn around and show patience and restraint in their commentary to the point that I can see that they have a lot of good ideas. So please... let's keep a positive spin on this and not get caught up in petty squabbles. If the game is that important to you, express your views without belittling someone in the process. If threads devolve into that nonsense again I can tell you that I won't waste my time reading them.
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AndyHatton wrote:TheHutts wrote:Boba is very competitively costed. But on the other hand, he excels against swarms (because he can kill three pieces per round) and against tech (accurate shot). I did like Jim's post that if the meta becomes more low activation and less techy, Boba might not be the best choice anymore (although his extra 30 hit points over Cad Bane are quite significant). But generally I personally like having a top tier Boba, and I think that he's a distraction from several more important issues that need dealing with first. Agree with this totally, Boba is just the better Meta choice right now. Comparing the two Cad is still no slouch all these years later, and I too like having a top rank Boba (as someone who played Boba, Merc at a PA regional in 2014 before better Boba was out. Can you tell me what other piece is even close to being as good as Boba at this point? Assuming you want a shooter on your team somewhere around 40-60pts it will always be Boba. There is no faction shooter that comes close or even any other fringe shooter than can touch him.
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:AndyHatton wrote:TheHutts wrote:Boba is very competitively costed. But on the other hand, he excels against swarms (because he can kill three pieces per round) and against tech (accurate shot). I did like Jim's post that if the meta becomes more low activation and less techy, Boba might not be the best choice anymore (although his extra 30 hit points over Cad Bane are quite significant). But generally I personally like having a top tier Boba, and I think that he's a distraction from several more important issues that need dealing with first. Agree with this totally, Boba is just the better Meta choice right now. Comparing the two Cad is still no slouch all these years later, and I too like having a top rank Boba (as someone who played Boba, Merc at a PA regional in 2014 before better Boba was out. Can you tell me what other piece is even close to being as good as Boba at this point? Assuming you want a shooter on your team somewhere around 40-60pts it will always be Boba. There is no faction shooter that comes close or even any other fringe shooter than can touch him. +1
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In an Imperial or Fringe squad (which generally provide the best support for big Fringe shooters) WOTC Cad Bane can put out 120 damage a round at +20, as opposed to Boba's 90. If there's a rock meta, I think an extra 30 damage a round is probably worth considering for the trade off for less survivability and losing accurate. The most significant difference, IMO, is the extra 30 hit points that Boba has.
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TheHutts wrote:In an Imperial or Fringe squad (which generally provide the best support for big Fringe shooters) WOTC Cad Bane can put out 120 damage a round at +20, as opposed to Boba's 90. If there's a rock meta, I think an extra 30 damage a round is probably worth considering for the trade off for less survivability and losing accurate. The most significant difference, IMO, is the extra 30 hit points that Boba has. Is this a troll? Boba has GMA and Triple. He can hit 3 targets with Accurate, costs less than Cad, can immobilize a piece and can throw damage onto a piece 6 squares away. AND he has more health. Please tell me more about how Cad Bane can compete against that.
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:TheHutts wrote:In an Imperial or Fringe squad (which generally provide the best support for big Fringe shooters) WOTC Cad Bane can put out 120 damage a round at +20, as opposed to Boba's 90. If there's a rock meta, I think an extra 30 damage a round is probably worth considering for the trade off for less survivability and losing accurate. The most significant difference, IMO, is the extra 30 hit points that Boba has. Is this a troll? Boba has GMA and Triple. He can hit 3 targets with Accurate, costs less than Cad, can immobilize a piece and can throw damage onto a piece 6 squares away. AND he has more health. Please tell me more about how Cad Bane can compete against that. Cad Bane has Stealth, so he can get access to SS. He has more dmg output built in (in a Thrawn Swap, its 200 dmg over 2 rounds, compared to Boba's 150). You still have GMA and flight. Accurate shot is nice, but as far as damage output goes, Cad Bane still does more. It depends on what your trying to accomplish. Cad Bane is better and handling Jedi beats, whereas Boba is great at taking out commanders/tech/swarms. And theHutts isn't trolling....he's showing points that people have long known about. If you disagree with someone, its pretty lame to just call them a troll, especially when theHutts is as far away from being a troll as anyone I know.
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:Is this a troll? Boba has GMA and Triple. He can hit 3 targets with Accurate, costs less than Cad, can immobilize a piece and can throw damage onto a piece 6 squares away. AND he has more health. Please tell me more about how Cad Bane can compete against that. I like how disagreeing with you makes me a troll. I actually think the jump from 90 damage to 120 damage is fairly significant, especially in Imperial swap squads where you can get adjacent to your target anyway. In the NZ National final against Sharron, I would have loved to be able to take out Ganner early, but since Boba can only do 90 damage and Ganner has 100 hit points, it wasn't possible. I actually spent time playing with Cad Bane practicing for Nationals, as I still think double swap Cad Bane would be a very strong squad. I found Cad made my life way easier against high hit point squads - I'd much rather have Cad against something like Republic Commandos with Shields or against New Republic beef, both things I tested against. But in the current meta I'm more likely to see tech squads and swarms, so I went with Boba. In Fringe, I think accurate is very significant, and Boba is very strong with Talon's Intuition CE - I'd take Boba almost every time in Fringe. In Imperial swap with Thrawn, I think it's at least open to debate. I think Wrist Cable is next to useless in Imperial swap, I'd take Stealth over Bait and Switch, I think accurate vs extra damage is a meta call. 30 extra hit points is the most significant IMO, maybe along with the fact that the Czerka Shield Tech can shut Cad's twin down. Cad also has access to synergies with Stealth - he's good in Old Republic with Arfan Ramos. Overall, I do agree that Boba is a better deal than Cad (it's mainly about the extra hit points), but it's not so accentuated that it rules Cad out as a competitive option.
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