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Poll Question : Should the Mouse Droid receive a change?
Choice Votes Statistics
No, learn to deal with it. 16 35.555555 %
Yes, shouldnt Block Movement 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt Provide Cover 3 6.666666 %
Yes, shouldnt Count as Closest Target 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt BM or PC 1 2.222222 %
Yes, shouldnt BM or CCT 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt PC or CCT 2 4.444444 %
Yes, shouldnt BM, PC or CCT 23 51.111111 %

Size matters not... Yes it does! Options
theultrastar
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 5:04:48 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 564
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".


+1
kobayashimaru
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 5:11:17 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
The "how" of the resolving of this contentious issue is a detail,
at this juncture, it's a "when", not an "if" as to the mouse droid/gha nackht being resolved.
We are all solving it as we speak.

Sithborg may have misspoken (just as others misphrased an option),
though what I hear Sithborg to be saying ---
that a particular path to the resolution/solution...
would cause more problems and lead to a vicious circle of alterations,
that's fair enough.
Saying that one avenue, to solving this pickle which we all find ourselves in
(which, it's not the inanimate cards fault, nor so much the designers who made the cards as such,
as it is a min-max TKO mindset in the playerbase, though that's a tangent for another time BigGrin )
- is 'off the table' or non-compromiseable, what is so wrong with that?

That is an area which historically in other games, has been a snowball effect, as others have em-passionately put forward before.
Case in point? Rogue Trader through v8 of GW40K rules - at one point, 3 new 'core' rulebooks inside of 18months. It was hellish,
let alone the cost, let alone the 'rules-sticklers' mentality of that game...
Sithborg is not precluding other options or pathways - which there's a zillion ways to go from A to B; 2+2=4, 5-1=4, 2^2=4... -- and there have been several good ideas here and elsewhere.
As I've said - it's a matter of time, and this minor speedbump will be solved BigGrin

It would be unfortunate to see any... misunderstandings occur,
months from now - when we've solved this issue, and the good times of fun till the next broken combo is found, we'll look back and laugh at how much like Boba BH or GOWK like this tangent was.
when we all have, these minor issues aside, so much more in common than we have in difference
(we're all SWMinis fans, Sci Fi fans, looking for good clean tabletop fun hehe BigGrin. )

On that note -
thanks everyone -
thanks for speaking frankly on this issue, about perspectives on the ways to make the simplest alteration (without too many unforeseen new problems)
and for coming up with awesome ways in which to resolve this momentary problem.
It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be prepared to speak up in a public fora, and to persevere through to a solution.
It's a "when", folks, and at this rate, we'll have it solved inside of a week or so - that is rapid turn around time.
Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 6:44:29 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".


When it comes to the rules, yes. Do you know how many things I've had to tell the designers wouldn't work? While I'm not exactly in charge of the rules anymore, it tends to be the belief that the core rules should not be changed.

Most changes have unforseen consequences in terms of interactions, that most don't see when they propose changes.
swinefeld
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 7:15:15 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 1/30/2009
Posts: 6,457
Location: Southern Illinois
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".


When it comes to the rules, yes. Do you know how many things I've had to tell the designers wouldn't work? While I'm not exactly in charge of the rules anymore, it tends to be the belief that the core rules should not be changed.

Most changes have unforseen consequences in terms of interactions, that most don't see when they propose changes.


+1
juice man
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 8:25:21 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.
The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.
And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".
If you note, right after "Moderator" it says "Rules Guy". Sithborg has been, for a long time, the final word on rules interpretations.
Prestige Worldwide
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 8:41:12 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/2/2013
Posts: 46
juice man wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.
The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.
And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".
If you note, right after "Moderator" it says "Rules Guy". Sithborg has been, for a long time, the final word on rules interpretations.


In this thread. The idea that changing rules has unforeseen consequences that can be only seen by one guy who is the final word on ruling calls. Makes sense, why tackle issues as a group when you can have one person who is omnipotent imo.

Why won't just admit that this won't be changed because the one's who want the change are for the most part, not the premier Gencon players. If they asked for it, it would change, but it seems unlikely otherwise.
SignerJ
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 8:58:57 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/2/2012
Posts: 746
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.


I'm with Sithborg in this. Rules are really tricky things, and most people aren't accustomed to that field. It's best to just have one or two people who are good at it be in charge of the rules.

Not to mention, I have never seen a situation or example where mass voting on rules has ended well.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:03:27 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
SignerJ wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.


I'm with Sithborg in this. Rules are really tricky things, and most people aren't accustomed to that field. It's best to just have one or two people who are good at it be in charge of the rules.

Not to mention, I have never seen a situation or example where mass voting on rules has ended well.

+1

As a designer I am slowly getting better at foreseeing consequences and interactions, but I am still nowhere near Sithborg and Swinefeld in that regard.

I am a firm believer in the general idea that large changes = unforeseen consequences (often negative ones).

Changes in the game can be made, but only cautiously and with extreme help and input from the rules gurus. This is essential for all of our sakes.
Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:21:37 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
Prestige Worldwide wrote:

In this thread. The idea that changing rules has unforeseen consequences that can be only seen by one guy who is the final word on ruling calls. Makes sense, why tackle issues as a group when you can have one person who is omnipotent imo.

Why won't just admit that this won't be changed because the one's who want the change are for the most part, not the premier Gencon players. If they asked for it, it would change, but it seems unlikely otherwise.


There is a significant and fundamental difference between changing the rules and changing a piece. This thread is abotu changing the rules, in a very nonsensical manner. And creates even more complications in the rules. Having said changes made to the Mouse Droid, via SA, is a completely seperate issue that I really have no opinion on.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:34:52 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
Sithborg wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:

In this thread. The idea that changing rules has unforeseen consequences that can be only seen by one guy who is the final word on ruling calls. Makes sense, why tackle issues as a group when you can have one person who is omnipotent imo.

Why won't just admit that this won't be changed because the one's who want the change are for the most part, not the premier Gencon players. If they asked for it, it would change, but it seems unlikely otherwise.


There is a significant and fundamental difference between changing the rules and changing a piece. This thread is abotu changing the rules, in a very nonsensical manner. And creates even more complications in the rules. Having said changes made to the Mouse Droid, via SA, is a completely seperate issue that I really have no opinion on.


Sorry, there is nothing nonsensical about changing the way Mouse Droids work. Stop being so arrogant for three seconds and acknowledge that there are people clamoring for a change.
Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:53:01 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
People have been clamoring for a lot of things in the rules for a long, long time. So you will pardon me if this is hardly a special snowflake.

Again, not saying a change to the Mouse Droid cannot happen. But a change to the RULES ABOUT BASE SIZE are not changing. Which is what this thread was advocating.
jak
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 10:06:10 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 10/17/2010
Posts: 3,682
Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
DarthMaim wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote.* Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".


it's always been that way.ThumbDown
Scott is very Sithy,(rule of two, as long as he's one of the 2) and very Borgy(resistance is futile, join the collective,where free thinking is a thing of the past)

*just for fun, say the italicized phrase in your best German accent , and you'll hear it how I hear it LOL
SignerJ
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 11:40:07 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 1/2/2012
Posts: 746
Rules should almost NEVER be up for democratic vote. It would be a horrible mess. That's just how things work.

And, hey, look, if you all are so set on giving the Mouse Droid a "Tiny" classification, just give it a SA called Tiny (Does whatever you all want this SA to do.)
jak
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 11:45:13 AM
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SignerJ wrote:


And, hey, look, if you all are so set on giving the Mouse Droid a "Tiny" classification, just give it a SA called Tiny (Does whatever you all want this SA to do.)


pretty sure that's what the majority wantsThumbsUp
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 2:29:14 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
Sithborg wrote:
Again, not saying a change to the Mouse Droid cannot happen. But a change to the RULES ABOUT BASE SIZE are not changing. Which is what this thread was advocating.

It seamed like the best option. I wanted to change the mouse in a way that would appease those that want to leave WOTC stuff alone, but at the same time do it in a way that would make sense. I don't view my suggestion as changing any WOTC rules. It creates a caveat for size, not changing any rules, but creating a new one for "one" character.

I can understand feeling like we can't change the mouse droids size because it is dependent upon the actual base size. If not that, then I would be more in favor of giving it an SA tag with the designated changes. I don't see a great need to print a new card. I highly doubt this change would go uncirculated throughout the community. People not knowing this would be like not knowing which SSM is being used.

It just comes down to how the balance team/rules guys want to handle it. Through size, through tagging the existing mouse with some SA or by banning the old mouse and printing a new card. No matter how you slice it though, if they decide to fix the mouse, then something of WOTCs will be changed. Even banning the old and printing a new is changing what WOTC left us with.
gholli69
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 4:27:49 PM
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I wouldn't be to sure about the circulating through the community part though. I know at least one person brought a Dalaa squad to Gencon this year and didn't realize before filling out their squad sheet the morning of the championships that she had been errated and it was someone who I would have thought would have known about the changes so might not be a bad idea to try and make cards and or PDFs available to players for pieces that have been or will be changed, as that really sucks to drive a long way to a tourney and then find out that what you had planned on running is no longer an option.
atmsalad
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 5:11:05 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
I wouldn't be to sure about the circulating through the community part though. I know at least one person brought a Dalaa squad to Gencon this year and didn't realize before filling out their squad sheet the morning of the championships that she had been errated and it was someone who I would have thought would have known about the changes so might not be a bad idea to try and make cards and or PDFs available to players for pieces that have been or will be changed, as that really sucks to drive a long way to a tourney and then find out that what you had planned on running is no longer an option.

Oh absolutely, we are getting to a point that regardless of what changes are made a PDF of erratas is going to need to be accessible and kept up to date.
jak
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 5:25:59 PM
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is that why the championship started so late?
we were waiting for him to remake a squad?
Prestige Worldwide
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:23:33 PM
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Joined: 5/2/2013
Posts: 46
Sithborg wrote:
If I can help it, nothing in the rules will ever change for the better


Big +1 to this. Get these casuals away from our GENCON imo.
gholli69
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:50:23 PM
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No Jak, that player wasn't the last one to turn in his squad sheet, he did however have to fill out a new one after I informed him of the erratta. It was alek, or Alex not quite sure on the name but he is the younger guy that has been playing in the championships for several years now since he was a young teenager, I think he may be from Iowa or western Illinois possibly. I was talking to him and he told me what he was running and so I let him know about the changes fairly quickly, but I also think he may have dropped from the tourney early as well, not sure if having to play a squad that was handicapped from what his original intent was had anything to do with that, but hopefully not.
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