Meh, cheap isn't exactly what I would say. It is about $15 retail, and all one essentially gets out of the dated starter is a map that can be played at regionals. I'm not saying that with some effort one cannot find it for a lesser price, but for those who are under or unemployed it can be a little difficult to pay those extra few dollars for just what they feel is only getting a map.

So I can see how newer players like Demosthenes can feel that additional maps on the list might benefit them if they had those maps.

I do approve of the current restricted map list as I think it offers the best chance for balanced variability. I just started this thread so people who don't have the maps on the restricted list know where they can find them easily and on the cheap.

I don't think people are criticizing the need for a restricted map list, but you have to keep in mind that even though Regionals are competitive level tournaments, there will be players who want to attend who are not exactly on the competitive level.

And it also seems that you seem to believe that the price of a booster is equal in value to some cusumers as a single restricted map. The Endor pack is probably the best buy, but the most usable items out of it are the maps. Some people do not value the three maps in there the same as the price of the pack.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I can understand where some people feel that they wish the restricted map list was slightly less restricted or wish the maps were slightly easier to get. Again, I agree with the idea of the different map list tiers, and I agree with the current list of maps in each tier.

I do like some of your solutions for being able to use maps for regionals if people cannot get ahold of them, like calling ahead to the shop to get them.

So what is that I am advocating sympathy towards those who do desire to move more into the competitive scene and are putting effort into play, but are limited by their means.

People who do care are taking ownership in the process or this wouldn't be a topic at all. This thread being a part of 'the process", this is where those who are less informed about obtaining legal maps can become educated as to that end.

People who are not quite on the competitive level may not desire to lose every round and may feel that will especially do so if they do not have maps. It is a valid concern that they have about what th relative ease it is to acquire maps.



I disagree that it is only an issue for those who actually want to be competitive and are unwilling to make the necessary effort to do so. With the internet and better connectivity I'm quite certain almost everyone can find a means to obtain a restricted map if they want. But you have to keep in mind that there is a difference between regionals, where all sorts of people will come out of the woodworks to play, and regular DCI play where people play regularly and have more interconnectedness with the venue. So, an example would be people who usually only play casually out of their house in the boonies drive the hour and a half to go play at regionals (having done their homework on DCI floorrules), but lack a significant amount of maps because they are harder to find in their neck of the woods.



Maps that are not on the restricted list do generally sell for around $10, but from what I hear people are finding some difficulty (some, not much) in acquiring restricted maps for less than $15. I not the word "value" was not said in previous posts, but the concept of value is intertwined with the concept of price, which you yourself note.

Those who are willing to lay down the cash for high valued(thus high priced) figures are not the ones I'm concerned or advocating for here. The ones I'm advocating sympathy for are those who could not afford those pieces even if they wanted them. These in the past have only been somewhat casual players, but with recent economic hardships and unemployment still around 10%, more and more people have to pinch more pennies and spend less on non-essentials.

For the SWM community, this translates into people buying fewer boosters and pieces. So, when they have limited resources to work with, they are going to find it more difficult to justify spending about the cost of a booster on maps just to play in one or two tournaments a year. Though in all likelyhood they will most likely gain much more utility out of those maps than that, but that would be the immediate benefit over whatever maps they already had in their possession. The point remains valid they may be more inclined to spend that money on boosters instead. The argument can be made that they don't want to play competitively badly enough, but that is where the notion of value comes into play. They may value having more pieces over playing regionals, but still desire to play at regionals enough to raise their concern.

At which point the community can inform them of alternative methods of which they may not yet be aware. Namely those which have already been named: "send a few PMs, make a phone call to their TO/store owner/friends to borrow" maps. So, it is not people placing blame on others or any such thing, it is people seeking alternative means (some people thinking that one such alternative mean may be expanding the restricted list, but it has been learned thorugh past experience that won't work so well).



Yeha, players just need to know that the community as whole is willing to support them with maps and other essentials. Sometimes people don't know that, especially those who are a bit isolated from good play groups geographically.

I think we agree on basically the same thing: if people want to play but need a map, ask around and it's pretty much certain that someone will help you out.

I think you might have missed my point. I was talking about people who are semi-competitive, and only those whose means are limited enough that spending $15 is an issue. Other than that, it is most likely a case where people who don't have a map aren't that interested in being competitive or just don't know where to find them yet.


I believe it is a slight concern, one not too pressing. I am not worried about the regionals I'm going to as we have several experienced players attending who already said they would help out with maps if needed.

That's my point as well. Eros, while valiant, has had to reduce his argument to so small of a possibility to become completely irrelevant as a legitimate concern. I mean seriously. How many people out there would fall into a category of
1. Don't already own any restricted maps
2. Can't buy them for $15 or so.
3. Also own enough minis to have a competitive squad (which they clearly payed more than $15 for) so likely lost a job recently or something.
4. Can't borrow from anyone, anyway, anyhow (probably don't have internet access, can't get to a library so likely no car either), and have 0 friends around. Not sure how they are getting to a regional with all that being true, but hey, that would probably be the only way someone falls into this category.

That can't be more than 1/100000 in reality.

At this point, I am more than confident nothing more needs to be said on it.

if your gaming group is having trouble getting attack on endor packs may i suggest this link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350256683283&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

That is a case (6 boxes) for $30

That would be $7 a piece with shipping and 6 players get them.

You guys are both advocating that we do something about it. What suggestions do you have??

Dean and Bill and I have all given suggestions, namely to go get the AoE pack which is relatively cheap. In fact, if your local group is THAT strapped for cash, you let me know, and we'll work out a way to buy an AoE case and send it to you. Seriously.

Beyond that though...what would you suggest? Changing the map list? We've already given the reason for why the Restricted map list exists. If we switch to the 'Standard' list for the Regionals/GenCon, then you have to deal with squad issues like we had at GenCon last year. It's a catch 22, and the issue of maps is a MUCH easier way to deal with it, and honestly, in the end, tick off less people.

Actually, that's a false logic. I'm not saying preventing what you have said is not a priority, it's just not the top priority in terms of setting the rules. The top priority of the rule set is to ensure as fair of play as possible, and to provide the most accurate assessment of skill as can be done. You are mixing priorities here. The rule set is not the place to ensure everyone (even the most minuscule of possibilities - Eros even went so far as to ignore my 4th criteria for finding someone who fits this, and that suits his argument, but not the reality. You are furthering that ridiculousness with the "even one" comment). Rule sets are used to create as fair of play as possible. We did consider access to maps as one priority, but making it the number 1 and only important one is a grave mistake.

Especially considering it's misplaced in that position. It should be the top priority of the players, TOs, and game stores to ensure that all players can play, have what they need, and so on. Not the rule set. My number 4 criteria was important, because it specifically shows that no such player should/will exist, and you are arguing with a straw man and false cause relationship. If such a player exists, it's not the fault of the rule set, but of the players, TO and store. Plenty of solutions have been offered by many of us, so either take us up on them, or give it a rest. There is no reason a player should fit the description you two have given.

The solutions are not unreasonable, though. This is something a lot of players not really getting.

High-level competition is not for everyone. If it wasn't the maps, I am certain someone would be complaining about having to get a high cost piece just to compete, most of them are a lot more expensive than the 07 Starter or AoE. The restricted map list is for a small number of tournaments.

If less than 1% of players are forced to be excluded, in order to make the map list fair, than so be it. The rules cannot be catered to every opinion.

OK, well I think everyone is pretty much in agreement, and planning to employ the advice given throughout the thread (from both sides). I think we were all just sort of discussing the same thing, but from slightly different points of view. Some of us said "here's a solution, but we really don't think there's a problem anyways", while others were saying "here's a solution, and we don't care if there is a problem or not, we just want to make sure we're prepared anyways". We all end up at the same solution though. Bill and I were just trying to point out that we didn't think it was really worth worrying about, because the chances of it happening are very small.

EDIT: However, it might be a good idea for the T.O. of each Regional to purchase at least 1 or 2 AoE packs and just have them in reserve, to help out players who might show up with a map not on the list or such. That's another possibility.