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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 12/26/2008 Posts: 2,115 Location: Watertown, SD
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Dead horse wrote: I have always thought that was the weirdest cliche in our entire language. Was there a point where people competed to create the most beautiful but inedible cakes?
It appeared back in the 16th century as the phrase "You can't eat your cake and have it". Basically, the point of the proverb was that you can't have things both ways (As if you eat your cake, you no longer have it). Over the years, the phrasing got twisted around into the illogical variant we see today. As for the killing two birds with one stone, it's not about conservation, it's about being efficient and effective. Think about it, if you kill a bird with a stone, is it's companion going to hang around so you can kill it with stone #2?
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 7/22/2009 Posts: 233
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Sweet, now GWAK is legal... now lets balance some OTHER factions... lmao
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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dahatchetjeedi wrote:Sweet, now GWAK is legal... now lets balance some OTHER factions... lmao You can't go on tirades on Rebel Cannon squads and then bash this change. And really, with Dark Times, it does bring some balance. The Mando Jedi Hunter is a Obi killer. The Vong kill Obi like nothing else. Someone mentioned Sith, which is fine since a lot of their best pieces are Melee and can easily handle Obi now. Yes, balancing the rest of your squad to deal with the super boosted stuff will be difficult, but my god, the enviroment is no where near as bad as the original. This change actively ENCOURAGE Melee use, and not just the limited, limited options with direct damage. You have to look beyond what is boosted, but what is needed to fight it.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 3/27/2008 Posts: 871 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Darth Bane can kill GOWK in 2 turns now. Plain and simple. Before everyone was afraid to use Bane/Exar against GOWK when SSM hit Melee but not anymore...
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Rank: Sith Marauder Groups: Member
Joined: 11/4/2008 Posts: 899 Location: Farmingdale, NY
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Kyle Katarn is the real Chuck Norris, not anymore for GOWK
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 2/9/2009 Posts: 936 Location: Southern Illinois
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I'm a little confused on the new scoring. So if a game goes to time and it has to be scored to determine a winner is that winner always going to be awarded 2 pts or are there instances where 3 will be awarded?
I was also a bit shocked at the map list. Seems most of the map packs will not see play now since I doubt many tourneys will have an open structure.
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Rank: Grand Master Yoda Groups: Member
Joined: 9/13/2008 Posts: 508
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Mickey wrote:I'm a little confused on the new scoring. So if a game goes to time and it has to be scored to determine a winner is that winner always going to be awarded 2 pts or are there instances where 3 will be awarded?
I was also a bit shocked at the map list. Seems most of the map packs will not see play now since I doubt many tourneys will have an open structure. The 'Nickname 6' maps are for Restricted tournaments, basically regionals, GenCon, large events like those.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 3/27/2008 Posts: 871 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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"In all tournament formats, a victory by tiebreaker shall be awarded 2 match points to the winner of the match." So I'd say no matter what, if you are the winner of a tiebreaker you only get 2 points. This was partially created to work against intentional slow players.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 2/9/2009 Posts: 936 Location: Southern Illinois
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Well I mentioned this when this idea was discussed, does this mean both players are going to be called slow players? I have seen matches where it was one person being slow and now it seems that the player not playing slow will be penalized. I was told there were exceptions, but the wording seems to suggest there is no exception to the rule. Maybe we are not seeing the whole picture and I will reserve judgment until I see how it works at the LGS. It seems the only way out of this scenario will be to get a judge involved. I realize that the rules say this is acceptable, but in reality there are going to be hard feelings. Either the one declared to be slow will be warned/dq'd or the one calling the judge over will be upset over the ruling. Either way the judge is going to be put into a tough situation. With the way I have seen threads going over the past few months I don't think it is a hard stretch of the imagination to say there are going to be tempers flairing when prizes are involved. I also see a problem that could develop. Players who are naturally slow are going to be faced with the decision to either learn to speed up or quit playing DCI. It's all well and good for us to say they do need to learn to speed up. However, every player that quits playing because they are no longer having fun is a paying customer that adds a nail in the coffin for the game. Now I want to say right off I'm not here to bait anyone into an argument or to diss on the new rules. I just have a concern that the community is taking the route I have seen alot of games take. In the online gaming world it is the pvp crowd vs the pve bunch. These two groups do not coexist well and I have seen the scisms destroy games. I'm worried that the groups for casual DCI players and the competitive DCI players are forming and divides developing between them. I would hate to see the community kill the game before WoTC does. Right now I find myself at odds over the new rules and how I will accept them when faced with them at our LGS. I'm a die-hard fan of the game and try hard to drag people into it. If I'm having these thoughts I'm sure others are. I will just have to wait and see how they go and make a decision for myself then. I'm going to try to remain optimistic for now. I also want to state one last time I'm not here to rag on anyone or try to start an argument
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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Wow, took a while to catch up on this thread! So, I'm trying to process this SSM change. I see what it does for countering GOWK/FLObi, but as I compare it with plain vanilla Soresu, I'm not seeing any real difference between the two anymore, other than the wording. Am I overlooking something? I like the format/maps structure, scoring, gambit rules. All good. Definitely like seeing Rigid dropped. Even if many Huges are still handicapped by rough terrain (time to rally for Stable Footing!) at least they can get through more areas than before. Between Dark Times and these changes, games are going to be pretty interesting
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008 Posts: 1,441
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swinefeld wrote:Wow, took a while to catch up on this thread! So, I'm trying to process this SSM change. I see what it does for countering GOWK/FLObi, but as I compare it with plain vanilla Soresu, I'm not seeing any real difference between the two anymore, other than the wording. Am I overlooking something? The Word "adjacent" :)
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 5,201
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lol Those lines have been drawn for years. It was just called "Casual" vs "Competitive".
And don't place the "drama" of the forums onto the real world. I feel most don't act like they do here in real life. And if a Judge is afraid of being in a tough spot, then they shouldn't be the judge. The role of the judge is to be there for such tough decisions. I don't see why determining slow play is much different than a play error or a rules decision.
As billiv has said, the Time Win situations have very little affect on local tournaments. 2 FWs and a TW will still beat 2 FWs. It makes the bigger tournaments a little more complex, but that is fine.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008 Posts: 1,441
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Sithborg wrote:As billiv has said, the Time Win situations have very little affect on local tournaments. 2 FWs and a TW will still beat 2 FWs. It makes the bigger tournaments a little more complex, but that is fine. It's actually less than that Scott. In a 3 round event: 2 TWs + 1 FW = 7pts 2 FWs + 1 L = 6pts All they have to do is finish one game of 3 to ensure they don't lose their place. And honestly, if the guy is competing for 1st place in a 3 round local event, and can't finish a single game of the three, then we need to take seriously the idea that this player might not deserve to win the event.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 1/30/2009 Posts: 6,457 Location: Southern Illinois
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billiv15 wrote:swinefeld wrote:Wow, took a while to catch up on this thread! So, I'm trying to process this SSM change. I see what it does for countering GOWK/FLObi, but as I compare it with plain vanilla Soresu, I'm not seeing any real difference between the two anymore, other than the wording. Am I overlooking something? The Word "adjacent" :) SSM works against point-blank blaster bolts. SS does not. Phew, thought I was losing it for a sec. Thanks
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008 Posts: 536 Location: Tracy, CA
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Mickey wrote:
I also see a problem that could develop. Players who are naturally slow are going to be faced with the decision to either learn to speed up or quit playing DCI. It's all well and good for us to say they do need to learn to speed up. However, every player that quits playing because they are no longer having fun is a paying customer that adds a nail in the coffin for the game.
Wow, and I thought I was a pessimist. Nail in the coffin for the game? Hardly. I can almost bet there will be plenty of replacement players. As for a paying customer, most competitive squads can be made for a reasonable price. They hardly constitute a large chunk of the Wizos pie. That's probably one reason Wizos doesn't do much for supporting the DCI side of the game. That's why people like dnemiller or moses have to step in. If you have a problem with this DCI change, that's your prerogative. I think it's a great move for the competitive game. Players can and will adapt to this. EDIT: I'm not sure Wizos would become more involved even if the DCI numbers were on par with Magic. The players keep the game running. So the game will continue long after Wizos continues making new pieces.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008 Posts: 1,441
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Oh, and I should add, the point scoring changes do not go into effect until WotC updates the software, which I believe will be somewhere in the 2nd quarter of 2010 (April/May).
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008 Posts: 536 Location: Tracy, CA
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billiv15 wrote:Oh, and I should add, the point scoring changes do not go into effect until WotC updates the software, which I believe will be somewhere in the 2nd quarter of 2010 (April/May). That long huh? I guess we can't expect the Wizos web crew and such to be on the ball.
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 4/4/2008 Posts: 1,441
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Tirade wrote:billiv15 wrote:Oh, and I should add, the point scoring changes do not go into effect until WotC updates the software, which I believe will be somewhere in the 2nd quarter of 2010 (April/May). That long huh? I guess we can't expect the Wizos web crew and such to be on the ball. Well, the issue is this. There is a scheduled massive upgrade to happen at that time, something about Magic and so on. So we have been scheduled to get it at the same time so that stores only have to download the new program once. So in this case, I don't think WotC has dropped the ball, but they are beholden to it, if you read the floor rules :)
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008 Posts: 536 Location: Tracy, CA
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billiv15 wrote:Tirade wrote:billiv15 wrote:Oh, and I should add, the point scoring changes do not go into effect until WotC updates the software, which I believe will be somewhere in the 2nd quarter of 2010 (April/May). That long huh? I guess we can't expect the Wizos web crew and such to be on the ball. Well, the issue is this. There is a scheduled massive upgrade to happen at that time, something about Magic and so on. So we have been scheduled to get it at the same time so that stores only have to download the new program once. So in this case, I don't think WotC has dropped the ball, but they are beholden to it, if you read the floor rules :) Interesting. As long as Magic is involved, it is sure to happen.
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Rank: Moderator Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008 Posts: 812 Location: Parkville, MD
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The only potential problem I see with the new point system for wins is that not everyone plays the full 60 minute games recommended in the floor rules for DCI tournaments.
My normal venue only plays 35ish min matches. So, we usually go to time, even while rushing. But sometimes people will get a favourable matchup with a counter squad to their opponents' squad and will win quickly. Even if they do this twice, but lose once, they will still come in second even if the 1st place winner went to time three times. They would both have 6 points (1st - 3TWs = 6pts; 2nd - 2FWs + 1 L = 6pts), but 1st will win out on the second tiebreaker: 2. Match Win Percentage – The player with the highest match winning percentage.
So, I don't seeing it affecting LGS' all that much as there are fewer participants than the larger events. Where it is going to matter is at the larger events where there are many players and people who are closer in win percentage may have point discrepencies based on whether they went to time or not. This isn't meant to penalize anyone, but to encourage games to speed up and finish to conclusion, so people can try to get better standings. If a personal is a playing at normal speed and then notices that their opponent is playing slowly intentionally to avoid being defeat (not just making thoughtful moves), then the player needs to get the judges attention as soon as possible.
Overall, I approve of the updates, I just need to get more maps because I don't think I have any on the Restricted list. And I want BF, BH back on for DD (w/o the big D of course) so I can run my Kol with him. But I guess I'll just have to wait for July for that.
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