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changing prices of swm Options
brennan
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:49:46 AM
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
brennan wrote:
engineer wrote:
brennan wrote:
What exactly is a V-set???

Virtual set. You can expect to start to see stuff after the last WOTC set is released.

Are they sets that i can buy and use?


From what I have understood, what's gonna happen is like this.

A set of 60 alternate cards will be made for example, a "Luke Skywalker Farmboy" card will be made, one that might look like this (Just a hasty example)

Cost 19
HP 50
Def 16
Att +7
Damage 20

Unique
Deadeye
Pilot
Accurate Shot
Careful Shot
Final Shot

Force 3

The card can be used instead of the Luke Skywalker, Rebel card for the Luke Rebel piece from Rebel Storm. Or, the player can still use the original Card if they want. As far as I know, you will likely need the figure that matches the alt card, but I have also heard talk of different luke minis being usable for a luke card, like luke HOY being OK for use with the alternate Luke rebel card since he is nonmelee, etc.

The card will be available for download and then print for free, or, you can buy them on cardstock for a small fee.

That might not be entirely true, but that's what I've gathered.


So I could end up, in a fewmonths with a new stat card for Darth Bane???!!! or some such thing?
PhageLab
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:56:07 AM
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billiv15 wrote:

Actually, it's more than a slim chance. I wouldn't put a percentage on it, but it's not nearly as far fetched as some have claimed from my understanding of the situation.

But regardless, the plan is to go about it when MotF is released, regardless of the rumors of a purchase or not. When something is confirmed, we will have that discussion, but will go forward with the assumption that nothing is going to happen for the time being (even if as I said, it seems to be a pretty decent chance at this point).


Thanks for clearing that up. I'm excited either way, just to be clear. I fully endorse V-sets assuming no one picks up the game and keeps the rules compatible.
engineer
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:14:54 AM
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brennan wrote:
So I could end up, in a fewmonths with a new stat card for Darth Bane???!!! or some such thing?

Yes, but personally I'm not sure Bane is at the top of the "new" Sith Lord's pile.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:41:07 AM
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engineer wrote:
brennan wrote:
So I could end up, in a fewmonths with a new stat card for Darth Bane???!!! or some such thing?

Yes, but personally I'm not sure Bane is at the top of the "new" Sith Lord's pile.


My Guess would Be Nihilus and Malak from CotF. Currently, the only reason to play the old malak is if you don't have the new one (Sorry, LS Throw counts for nothing over lightning, I don't care even if I know I will be playing against vong).
carnorjax1
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:49:34 AM
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The prices will either go up, or go down drastically, it depends on what everyone thinks. If someone selling minis online hears the game is going down the sink, he will tack on more $$$ to his figs price, just becuase there will be no more sets after MOTF. Others will think that the figs aren't worth jack squat to people anymore, and will sell them dirt cheap. Then there will be the few who maintain the same prices as always. I don't approve of V-sets, becuase if they do jack up prices because old figs are playable, they will be that much harder to collect.
greentime
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:52:11 PM
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
I don't think anyone said prices will go up across the board. Honestly, right now, the old pieces are still pretty expensive. Take Boba Merc for example. Once we get a new card for RS Boba, Merc will likely be a little less important to get. Now, I wouldn't recommend going out and buying old figures at any price, you need to get I good deal i'd hope. But it makes no sense to me to recommend the currently good figures who will be replaced to some degree by alternate versions of their older incarnations, when those older incarnations can be bought before the price spike, and many of the current good ones (somewhat replaced in the future) will go down. Now, there are some current good ones that will only get better (Uggies, Mice, Storm Commandos), but if there is a significant increase in the utility of old pieces, they will go up, and the other options will likely go down. Also remember that there really aren't any more Luke JK's than Emperor Palpatines, especially when Luke JK becomes useful as well.


We just have completely different opinions on this.

In my opinion, it is almost a 100% certainty that the design committee will create new ugnaught demolitionist and mouse droid pieces. They'll be called something else, they'll be different things, but there will be a Ugnaught Droid Destroyer(v) and a Human Scoundrel (v) "Messenger Boy" or something to that effect. Those pieces are necessary because the "ordinary" squad needs several of them and they are already quite difficult to find and relatively costly. I would not stock up on mouse droids, even though they are good, because I think the PC is guaranteed to create an alternative to them. UH Lobot is also an obvious candidate for this. He has become a staple in many squads but is old and kind of hard to find. CLobot(v) would be the most obvious solution.

On the other hand, in my opinion the PC is virtually guaranteed not to create a piece that is more or less Yobuck. The game does not need two pieces who do what Yobuck does. He is only played in squads that are more or less built around him. Now, there may well be pieces that zoom all over the board and pieces that get to attack multiple targets and pieces with 160 health and 20 defense that are swappable, but if you want all of those at once, you're going to have to play Yobuck.

In SWCCG, the scarcest cards are from the last few sets to be released because Decipher did not print as much of them. In SWM, however, the last few sets are the most plentiful, and the older stuff is the hardest to find. When was the last time you found a Champions of the Force case for sale anywhere? When my buddies and I realized that the store in Nashville had COTF boosters we were very surprised and bought every one that they had on the spot.

The prices for the last few sets of SWCCG remained high also because many of those cards were broken and because the game experienced significant power creep. CC Boba Fett is pathetic compared to Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter. Maul with Dual Saber is an obscene piece that makes mockery of almost every other main in the game. But in the case of minis, many of the best and most broken pieces are old. Yobuck, Lancer droid, A&E Leia, etc. So we have the same situation in both games -- there are pieces that are simultaneously relatively rare, and relatively superior in quality.

If you want to make a profit, I can't help you. But if you want to know what someone who already went through the discontinuation of one game thinks, my advice is to look at old pieces that are unlikely to be duplicated, either because they are very unique or just a hair too powerful, and make sure you grab them when the prices drop the furthest. If you disagree with the reasoning I have set forth here to try and explain why that is what I would do, then just do as you see fit. There will probably be more than enough product to go around for many years to come without worrying about it too much.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:06:38 PM
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greentime wrote:
AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
I don't think anyone said prices will go up across the board. Honestly, right now, the old pieces are still pretty expensive. Take Boba Merc for example. Once we get a new card for RS Boba, Merc will likely be a little less important to get. Now, I wouldn't recommend going out and buying old figures at any price, you need to get I good deal i'd hope. But it makes no sense to me to recommend the currently good figures who will be replaced to some degree by alternate versions of their older incarnations, when those older incarnations can be bought before the price spike, and many of the current good ones (somewhat replaced in the future) will go down. Now, there are some current good ones that will only get better (Uggies, Mice, Storm Commandos), but if there is a significant increase in the utility of old pieces, they will go up, and the other options will likely go down. Also remember that there really aren't any more Luke JK's than Emperor Palpatines, especially when Luke JK becomes useful as well.


We just have completely different opinions on this.

In my opinion, it is almost a 100% certainty that the design committee will create new ugnaught demolitionist and mouse droid pieces. They'll be called something else, they'll be different things, but there will be a Ugnaught Droid Destroyer(v) and a Human Scoundrel (v) "Messenger Boy" or something to that effect. Those pieces are necessary because the "ordinary" squad needs several of them and they are already quite difficult to find and relatively costly. I would not stock up on mouse droids, even though they are good, because I think the PC is guaranteed to create an alternative to them. UH Lobot is also an obvious candidate for this. He has become a staple in many squads but is old and kind of hard to find. CLobot(v) would be the most obvious solution.

On the other hand, in my opinion the PC is virtually guaranteed not to create a piece that is more or less Yobuck. The game does not need two pieces who do what Yobuck does. He is only played in squads that are more or less built around him. Now, there may well be pieces that zoom all over the board and pieces that get to attack multiple targets and pieces with 160 health and 20 defense that are swappable, but if you want all of those at once, you're going to have to play Yobuck.

In SWCCG, the scarcest cards are from the last few sets to be released because Decipher did not print as much of them. In SWM, however, the last few sets are the most plentiful, and the older stuff is the hardest to find. When was the last time you found a Champions of the Force case for sale anywhere? When my buddies and I realized that the store in Nashville had COTF boosters we were very surprised and bought every one that they had on the spot.

The prices for the last few sets of SWCCG remained high also because many of those cards were broken and because the game experienced significant power creep. CC Boba Fett is pathetic compared to Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter. Maul with Dual Saber is an obscene piece that makes mockery of almost every other main in the game. But in the case of minis, many of the best and most broken pieces are old. Yobuck, Lancer droid, A&E Leia, etc. So we have the same situation in both games -- there are pieces that are simultaneously relatively rare, and relatively superior in quality.

If you want to make a profit, I can't help you. But if you want to know what someone who already went through the discontinuation of one game thinks, my advice is to look at old pieces that are unlikely to be duplicated, either because they are very unique or just a hair too powerful, and make sure you grab them when the prices drop the furthest. If you disagree with the reasoning I have set forth here to try and explain why that is what I would do, then just do as you see fit. There will probably be more than enough product to go around for many years to come without worrying about it too much.


Ah, I get what you're saying. You're talking about pieces that will (probably) never have alternates for their niche. However, I would think these are pieces that are borderline broken/crutch (Yobuck, Doombot, Rex?)

However, while I can see the human scoundrel being made into an alternate for a mouse, I don't see it being superior. Obviosuly we won't know till it comes, but I imagine it costing a bit more and having lower defense, and maybe a pathetic attack.

Now that you were more specific, there's a lot I agree with. If there are old currently good pieces that will not have some of their thunder stolen,then I agree, buy em cheap while you can. But, I think there's quite a few more currently good pieces that will go down in value due to their niches being crowded by new versions. Just think of any unique character who has 2 or more versions, where there is one of those that is now useless or even just borderline. Just a few that spring to mind: Dash, Luke, Grievous, Sidious, Malak, Vader, Boba, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc etc etc. For all those any increase in usability of the poorer versions makes the currently good ones less necessary to have.

I agree that there are some pieces who will probably hold on to their current niches. But I would argue that there a quite a few more who are currently good that will lose importance. It's probably good to buy both yobuck (see my bottom paragraph though) and Leia captive. Other pieces might be in the middle. Like Jango from CS. He's not really any good at all, and yet still has quite a high price. Now, he may not get a V-card, since he's hard to get, and you just wasted $10. I think we both have valid points on what to buy. The gray area is where it gets risky.

As for the uggies and mice. IDK, it just seems that after we get another option for cheap stachel and cheap CE extension, those versions won't be as good as the mouse and uggie. I agree that the mouse and uggie (assuming those alternates are made) will be not as necessary, but I don't see gamers making the new ones Superior. From what I have read they aren't trying to revolutionize all of the demand (which is risky to do especially if a designer happens to have a buttload of Human Scoundrels sitting around, that's a scandal we don't need)

PS: I HATE yobuck. I would argue he is broken in that he singlehandedly (well, maybe lancers too) did away with the swarm genre of squadbuilding. He'd be a pretty good piece without gallop, but with it, he's just gross.
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:09:28 PM
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In other words: get'em all.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:22:39 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
In other words: get'em all.


Almost all I'd say Smile

Revan and a lot of the CS uniques are maybes for me (assuming I didn't already have them [evillaugh])

It seems like there might be some pieces just too rare to be a good idea virtualizing, even with preserving collectability.

Not that I'm the person to say which ones those are.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:18:15 PM
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I'd say if you had to try to guess on what ones to buy, go for ones that don't have alternate versions (Bastila Shan) or are in unique outfits (Leia, Captive). Others can easily have alternate proxies (for instance, I'd say a new version of Luke, Jedi Knight could be proxied by Luke, Jedi just as well).

I'd also be willing to bet that members of the community will make sets of instructions of how to mod existing C/UCs into proxies for some of the rarer units (Take a Mandalorian Gunslinger, apply some breast reduction surgery, slap on a coat of paint, and you've got a Jango Fett.)
engineer
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:39:42 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
In other words: get'em all.

You so funny.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:20:23 AM
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Some of the older unique pieces may not see new (V)ersions anytime soon, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be something else introduced that will make them more useful. Synergy/Rapport could be a great way to help specific pieces without breaking everything else.

Opinion:

As far as the competitive scene and v-sets, I'm all for having easily obtainable proxies and/or customs that can be made from cheap pieces, so everyone can play what is created without significant effort or expense. As it is, you can play anything you want on Vassal even if you don't own a single mini.

The scarcity of older pieces that get new cards I feel should only be a concern for collectors who want the actual plastic, and not be an obstacle to those who simply wish to play the game. I'm hoping that the PC keeps this in mind in the interest of keeping (or growing, if possible) the player base.

At the same time however, there is the issue of tournament sponsorship and prize support, which could to some extent necessitate maintaining some retail market demand for minis beyond only collectors.

I have everything shy of a couple pieces from Dark Times, and I view my collection as an (expensive) investment in fun, and nothing more. I have no interest in grabbing up minis (outside of trading for filler wants and non-uniques for my own customizing) that might end up being in more demand by players going forward. Minis dealers on the other hand are going to be looking to make as much $$ as possible (that is to be expected), so I could see v-sets having at least some effect on prices.

It will be interesting to see how all this is handled, and how it plays out in the end.
yodaccm
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:58:32 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
In other words: get'em all.


Pokemon!
yodaccm
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:23:41 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
PhageLab wrote:
Not jumping into the massive debate at hand here, but I do have a question:

Are you going to wait to see if someone picks up the line before creating a V-set or will work commence immediately after the release of MoTF?

I realize there is a very slim chance that will happen, but I am still hopeful of the possibility.


Actually, it's more than a slim chance. I wouldn't put a percentage on it, but it's not nearly as far fetched as some have claimed from my understanding of the situation.

But regardless, the plan is to go about it when MotF is released, regardless of the rumors of a purchase or not. When something is confirmed, we will have that discussion, but will go forward with the assumption that nothing is going to happen for the time being (even if as I said, it seems to be a pretty decent chance at this point).


Nice to hear some optimism that the game may continue through another company. Who wouldn't want to have an official Lucasfilm licensing? It's Star Wars; the name itself is worth it's weight in gold. Wizards must have really screwed up to let something like a Star Wars license out of their grasp. Since when has Star Wars never pulled in a profit? I guess with Star Wars miniatures...apparently. Nonetheless, if handled properly, as many have suggested, there should be no reason for any quality Star Wars product line to end prematurely.
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