Personally, I don't think something like Breath Mask should ever have EXISTED lol, but I don't think it needs to be changed right now, to be even MORE circumstantial.

Also, Echo and Sithborg make good points; not everyone is on bloomilk who plays standard. A change to 'standard minis' may not be too feasible because not everyone would necessarily be AWARE of them. Makes it hard to errata anything by WotC or even V-sets (perhaps why it has so seldom happened, it had to be a drastic situation).

And, as Sithborg said, even small changes could have ripple effects beyond what we anticipate down the road.

I dont understand why you want this change so bad?

The game was built for a reason play it how its meant to be played. Yes some stuff got past the designers or thats how they wanted it to be. All of the stuff you want changed is just little stuff. Really SWM is a Casual game now so house rules and special tournaments are fine.

I agree once you start changing stuff where do you stop.

I'm the only one in my playgroup who goes on bloomilk, and we play with V-set pieces for some games.

I think changing the core rules is more trouble than it is worth and is deceptively complex. There would be a lot of potential for disagreement (ex: Would Cade Skywalker, BH count as melee when adjacent or does he get to choose or is he just non-melee?). House rules can be house rules but I am against a standard minis core rule change.

Any pieces WotC put out and their rulebook...that's what the original Vset designers did not want to change.

TO me you should not change these abilities for Flavor. In some Cases a character would lose twin, or Opportunist when using these type of abilities (Czerka, Yularen) especially if they are getting Rolling cleave from Asoka. TO me it would mess with too much. This would not be a minimal change at this point as you are talking about a large amount of Abilities that would very specifically change to only melee attacks. In addition there would be hundreds of cards affected and that is not a good situation to have. There have been very few Erratas (which is what this would be) That drastically change a large number of pieces. Usually they change 1 or 2, maybe a few more.


Making a change to A large amount of Abilities and characters is a huge iossue, and would drive a lot of people already playing away, as well as deter any new people as the rules would become more muddy.

For instance if you are teaching a new player with Jax Pavan, in a Squad with a Czerka and Asoka then you have to explain the fact that he loses twin when adjacent to enemies, even though he does not have Melee attack, and that When he uses cleave he loses twin even though by the card it makes sense then you end up confusing a player and driving someone new away. THe issue comes from the fact that so many of these issues would have been reasonable to change early on in the game, but now would be more problematic because of the sheer amount of characters with these abilities. IT is a better Situation to let them be as they have been in this case because of the Potential Uproar against it.

Overall i don't feel that the whole community wants these changes either. It seems like there are more people against the changes than for it.

A few thoughts here

1) at the quote. It seems to me that people would really want the changes, just dont want to go through the hassle of actually changing them.

2) Teaching a new player that a lightsaber is a melee attack will not be hard, it will be simple. Why? because the person already thinks of a lightsaber as a melee attack.
Czerka Clearly states nonmelee. It is not a difficult thing to understand.

Like I said before, the change that I would like to see would be Lightsabers, put the rest of the stuff up to a committee. However, lightsabers being a nonmelee attack is beyond comprehensible.

Mando, thanks for those numbers!! perfect way to look at things. It gets rid of the why's and the discussions that lead to nowhere.

People do not want change in Standard, even though it is silly (most everyone agrees on that part), the community has spoken.

I think the consensus is do not change the standard, and have fun playing house rules and/or in special tournaments, like Legacy events that will be happening and maybe some others.

These things can help make sure that Darth Reignir's post of caution does not come to pass.

All the best games cannot make it without special rules events. MtG has tons of them, and all other major games that I know of do as well.

If we want a more "close-knit" community we will start to push for some of these "compromises" such as participating in events with special rules. Like I have said from the beginning, I have seen lots of people on here and have never actually played with a large number of them. I just cannot see myself doing so in regular standard rules. Would have to be a special rules tournament. Same for a lot of guys I presume. And some of the guys that have left because of NPE's in standard might come back for a tournament that limits some of those things.

Game plan: please add to it (personally, i am totally done talking about rules now no disrespect just its not going anywhere, which, again, is not a problem thanks to Legacy).

Get the word out for Legacy format and that V-sets are opening the meta.
i know that Legacy has brought back a few already (justin and sithbot) and both of them are looking to find a way to enjoy standard, maybe if the meta is opening... who knows. So it might be a way to grab some interest from people who left due to NPE's.
I dont really have info for standard and things since I am out of that loop.

Invite known players back for a specials event (no pressure, just good ol' fun)
they check things out, like what they see and the conversations and small changes made (nerfed Daala, gambit, etc.)
they stick around and play

We can call it
"The Rescue"

For the sake of the game they ought to.

Maybe make a list of 60 Vset pieces they want to keep and call it Vset origins and restart.


No sith obi-wan this time round ;)

@TheHutts,
well said, and thanks for sharing a quantitative perspective to the topic at hand. Especially the reiteration at the end of your second last paragraph: "it means its hard to compare the two sets as they're at different power levels". You found that there was more internal consistency within a V-Set to V-Set comparison, which makes sense given the game had been around for a while, and balance within the set was a design factor.
Also, i'd be keen to see an update to your earlier approach to those graphs on power creep you made a while back - it was easy to read and made a lot of sense.

Even though I'm a Sep player through and through, I have to heartily agree with the feedback on those Sep pieces - they're already a very powerful faction, and undercosted due to Hero of Hypori or GGDAC + Whorm + Gha Nackt etc...

The Kezzamachine thread is also a GREAT pedagogical resource - excellent for a sequence to introducing concepts in SWMinis (in an intuitive measured way, rather than the "deep end sink/swim" approach I may have tried in the past heh ).

No one is trying to be mocking. Resistance to change is always a battle. and it does make it harder, I can most definitely see that. The fact that Legacy has dropped some WotC is what makes it so great IMO.

and once again, no one is forcing anything. just trying to find a way that legacy players can enjoy standard so their can be some level of cross-over.

So once again, ideas presented, ideas not liked, ideas not going to happen.

we can go in the same direction we have been i guess.

+1
Honestly i feel basically the same way.I do not have an issue with the TN Sets, but there is no reason to cause confrontation because you want all formats to bend to your stylization. I have not joined the TN sets due to a lack of additional time, but that is the only reason i have not. The principal is to not cause confrontation where there is little to none. In this Instant it would be like me, Who's Favorite format is Tile wars, Trying to Convince everyone that Override should not be able to Lock Doors Closed, Just open. Or that there needs to be a strict Time limit, Where if you run over time it is a double loss.