I like this and agree with what you say. The mechanics are already there. I'm just going to run with this and the way I'll do it is make add-on cards with a cost that include these attributes (or variations of these attributes) so i don't have to throw in a hologram guy or trainer in the mix too. So a player can just choose to add on this stuff to each jedi he has, kind of like buying special abilities or new weapons as happens in other games. I;m not sure if this has been done before or not but it's what I'm going to do (though we could always create these as part of a v-set and include 5-10 of them in the next set)

However what would the cost of all the extras be is the big question?

First, I should say that I pretty much agree with everything Bill has written so far in this thread.
I disagree. Small steps are one of the primary reasons why we still have a problem.

As an example from another arena, for the past 4 years we've supposedly been taking small steps to counter the abuse of activation control...and yet the top squad right now (both in NZ and also in PA, where there was a very solid group of players) is a 24-activation Poggle/San squad. Small steps are what an alcoholic takes when he doesn't want to admit he has a problem. The last thing we need is to take more small steps, because they're a waste of time. What we need, IMO, is to take some decisive steps. But whatever steps we take, they need to be specifically designed to make a significant difference and address problems directly.

I remember having the same discussion about how to fix the Vong, a year or two ago. Everyone was afraid of making them too good, because they had all those SAs and CEs which could make them monsters...that was the fear, anyway. But then, by the time you added all of the necessary elements to a squad, which would apparently turn them into monsters, you had room for only about 3-4 non-unique combat pieces which died quickly. Their problem was that they had a whole bunch of tech requirements split up among several different overcosted commanders. Poison for 19pts, Scarification for 18, Shaper for 21, etc. What they needed was to have a commander or two which solved multiple problems at once. Now we've got Zenoc Quah and Quorreal, who both contribute a huge amount to the faction and make several different builds viable. They're still not quite where they need to be (IMHO), but they are very close. My point is that Zenoc and Quorreal weren't small steps...they were decisive. Lots of the small steps along the way for the Vong were a waste of time. The reason Vong can start to compete now is because of a few significant pieces that really changed a player's options in squadbuilding and in play. Show me a competitive Vong squad that makes attacks (none of this Blast Bug stuff) that does not use Zenoc Quah; there is none. That's because he was decisively needed for his faction.

The same thing is true for helping melee Jedi squads to become competitively viable. A bunch of small steps will continue to be pointless. Something that makes shooters a little less effective will not make Jedi more effective...it just means that shooters will be slightly less effective against shooters.



As I see it, there need to be at least 2 major shifts in design philosophy as we move forward with the design of melee pieces.

1. If it's going to be tech for melee pieces, it needs to be cheap. No more 20pt+ stuff that offers a cool benefit but doesn't leave enough room to build a squad with it.

Let's use a hypothetical Mas Amedda as an example: If we were making a piece with Booming Voice but decided to raise his cost to 18pts or more and gave him better stats (70hp instead of 30, 18 Def, Double Att, etc), we would be weakening the piece, because he has one job in the squad: Booming Voice. "But he's got 70hp and double attack!" ...So what? Who gives a rip? He's not added to the squad as an attacker. Anything else that raises his cost would make him a less useful piece. It's easy to fit 8pts into a squad, but a whole lot harder to fit 18pts into a squad where the role/function of the piece remains the same. Tech needs to be minimalist in order to do its job properly. If it's expensive (ie, Talon for 38pts or Thrawn/Mas for 40pts), then it's got to offer a LOT to the squad for its 38-40pts (which Talon and Thrawn/Mas certainly do). If this is already true for regular tech pieces then it's especially true for Jedi/melee tech pieces, since Jedi are already quite expensive and so it's already hard enough to fit enough of them into a squad that makes the tech worthwhile.

I'm not arguing for commanders/tech that are undercosted with 100hp and 20 Def for 15pts, but rather for commanders/tech that are 50hp and 17 Def for 15pts with the same CE or tech. The former is trying (and failing miserably) to be a combat commander, while the latter is recognizing that it's a support piece and is being costed accordingly.

As an example, I'd like to see a commander costing 15pts (not 35pts!) with this CE:
Allied force users with a lightsaber gain Defensive Stance and can move 4 extra squares as part of their move.
Such a piece needs needs to have minimal stats in order to do its job. It will die quickly when you use a deep strike to kill it (as San or Dodonna or Pellaeon would too). Adding more SAs and Force Powers would weaken the piece, and turn what was originally a very helpful piece into a seldom-used jack-of-all-trades. Clarity of design intent needs to be far sharper if we're going to make effective melee tech pieces.

Another option:
Czerka Engineer: At the start of the skirmish choose 2 allies with melee Attack; they gain Flak Jacket. (Maybe all allies rather than just 2? Cost needs to be 13-ish with appropriate stats...not 18 with appropriate stats)


2. Cost the Melee Attack SA appropriately. We have been underestimating the impact of this SA. It seems to me like some people don't understand the heavy cost reduction that needs to come with the Melee Attack SA. We already know that the Savage or Heavy Weapon SAs give a piece a significant cost reduction. While the Melee Attack SA obviously isn't quite as restrictive, I am convinced that it should have a more significant effect on costing than it has in the past.

Too many Jedi pieces have been overcosted because they have more hit points and higher defense than shooters in their price range. As a result, we raise the price, without taking into account the massive hindrance that is the Melee Attack SA. As an extrapolation, it seems like some people see a given piece with 100hp and 19 Defense and automatically think 30s for cost...while that may be on target for a shooter, 30pts is overcosted if that same piece is given the Melee Attack SA...it should be in the 20s instead. I know of hardly any competitive shooter squads whose shooters are doing less than 20dmg per attack...30 is the new 20, and yet we've been expecting that 130hp on a Jedi is the new 120hp. That's nothing but bad math.

Combine the underestimation of the Melee Attack SA with the small step philosophy, and you've got a recipe for melee/Jedi pieces continuing to not be competitive.


If you continue to do what you've always done, you'll continue to get what you've always got.

Also I know Tim and I can agree to disagree and still be friends and still try to help make good decisions for the game we love or that I am tying to love again.

Respectfully, I will have to disagree.

The reason we have a "problem" (which isn't a problem in everyone's minds) is overpowered NON-MELEE pieces and support for them.

Melee Jedi squads won the first 3 Gen Cons. Now a non-melee squad finally wins it's first one in the vset era and we have a problem?

We've given melee a lot, we've just given non-melee more recently.

Just a few examples of recent vset pieces that have greatly contributed to the current meta (directly and indirectly):

Naboo Trooper
Captain Needa
Naboo Pilot
Snowtrooper Officer
Domain Lah Warrior
Dr. Evazan, Galactic Criminal
Klatooinian Assassin
Rodian Assassin
Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
SpecForce Wilderness Fighter
Chiss Captain
Leia Organa Solo, Chief of State
Domain Lah Subaltern
Klatooinian Captain
Peace Brigade Soldier
Warrior Caste Subcommander
BX Commando Droid Sniper
BX Commando Droid Spotter
Captain Panaka of Theed
Commando Droid Officer
Republic Commando Dev
Republic Commando Jind
Neo-Crusader Elite Trooper
Elite Republic Commando - Fixer
Elite Republic Commando - Scorch
Elite Republic Commando - Sev
Elite Republic Commando - Boss
Fenn Shysa
Admiral Daala
Mira of Nar Shaddaa
Neo-Crusader Officer
General Weir
Carth Onasi, Old Republic Soldier
Morrigan Corde
Talon Karrde, Information Broker
Peace Brigade Commander
Guri, Black Sun Enforcer
Atton "Jaq" Rand
Mandalore the Resurrector
HK-47, Assassin Droid
Zam Wesell, Bounty Hunter
IG-88A
Han Solo, Corellian Legend
Te Ani'la Mand'alor
Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
Luke and Leia on Speeder
Durge on Speeder
Mandalore the Vindicated
Grievous on Tsmeu-6 Wheel Bike

Making over-powered shooters and then wondering why shooters are dominant is senseless.

The giant shoves have caused the pendulum to swing. We need to slow down the pendulums momentum, not simply give a giant shove in the other direction. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

(Stands up and starts a slow clap)

I even just wonder about War Throat on a medium cost, hard to kill Jedi. Momaw's a great piece, but he can die pretty fast to stuff like Sniper/Spotter or a strafer, especially without a good movement breaker.

I still think shooter defense is only part of the problem, and swarms are also problematic.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Make a list of the cheap shooter support, and see how you can combine it all up.

The ideal in my mind was always to have the balance favor mixed squads. With some all melee and some all shooter squads able to compete as well. It's been much easier to keep (make) the shooter squads compete, all melee has only had some chance.

Your example of the first 3 gencons is interesting.

Looking back I don't see that.

2005 - Boba, R2, Aura (100 points)
2006 - B&B (150 points) - One melee piece, but the win was due to swap, still I'll give this one. The other winner was Triple Boba however (yes used a Mace in the squad.)
2007 - Won by Broken Boba (Boba and JWMs), but let's look at the rest of the top 8. Virtually all shooter squads. And the JWMs were basically used as interference, map exploitation of mustafar and geonosis was key as much as anything.
2008 (since I assume you didn't mean 2005 in your statement) - All shooters, Speedy Cannon, abuse of map. Although I maintain that I could have won with LV B&B had I chosen to play it. Virtually all shooters in the finals. Second place was Han RH and Boba BH.

Oh yep, rereading it that makes more sense. The qualifier came in the next sentence.

I like this idea...and We see Council Masters appear as Holograms in one of the movies, to keep their cost down and stats minimal.

I always liked pieces like the Jedi Instructor, he was cheap had a solid CE and could handle himself in a fight, he has been outclassed lately but there was a time when I really enjoyed him.

I've been thinking, what if there are abilities to just make Force Powers Cheaper, rapport for Force Powers. Jedi Exile kind of does it and I think she is a great idea. The issue there is weird interactions with Force Immunity. (Now granted, Jedi still have a lightsaber they should be able to at least try and block a Vong's attacks even if they can't sense it coming, but still it messes up Vong balance issues)

But that got me thinking about this piece I created a while ago. Personally I like it a lot and obviously you don't have to take it in the Luke package or at this cost (since we have been talking about cheaper pieces,) but specifically the ability Praxeum Headmaster and his CE. Praxeum Headmaster gives out semi-limited MOTF, and his CE makes basic Force Powers (the defensive ones) basically free. You have to spend a Force Point to use it, but if you can you get it back.

Luke Skywalker, Praxeum Headmaster 56
Hit Points: 120
Defense: 21
Attack: 13
Damage: 20
Rarity:
Base: Medium
Gender: Male
Creator: AndyHatton
Created: 9/21/2012
Updated: 1/25/2013
Sets: Luke Skywalker
Praxeum
Special Abilities
Unique
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Double Attack (On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving)
Cooperation (This character is considered a follower for New Republic Commander Effects.)
Djem So Style Mastery (Whenever this character is hit by a melee attack, make a save of 11. On a success, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker with +10 Damage.)
Praxeum Headmaster (Allied Force Users with a printed cost of 30 or less can spend their own Force points once per turn and spend Force points from this character once per turn.)

Force Powers
Force 3
Force Renewal 1 (This character gets 1 Force point each time he activates)
Master of the Force 2 (May spend Force points up to 2 times in a single turn)
Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Levitation 1 (Force 1, replaces attacks: Move 1 Small or Medium ally within 6 squares to any unoccupied square within 6 squares. This move does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
Force Essence (When this character is defeated, you may immediately set up a character named Luke Skywalker, Force Spirit in the square this character formerly occupied. Any "at the start of the skirmish" instances are immediately resolved.)

Commander Effect
Whenever a New Republic follower with a Force rating and a printed cost of 30 or less uses 1 or more of its Force points that character gains 1 Force point.

Definitely on board with holograms. I am leaning towards them granting ways to avoid ranged damage, but pretty much anything that boosts jedi while not costing much and not having awesome offensive capabilities sounds great to me.