|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 564
|
To answer your question, to this point only Daala and the Zygerian Slaver, both from set 6 have had an errata.
Obviously going forward, if there were to be me any more erratas or a mass errata, that information needs to be presented better, so it can be found easily, much like TINT pointed out.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 2,093
|
theultrastar wrote:To answer your question, to this point only Daala and the Zygerian Slaver, both from set 6 have had an errata.
Obviously going forward, if there were to be me any more erratas or a mass errata, that information needs to be presented better, so it can be found easily, much like TINT pointed out. Don't forget the snowtrooper officer
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
|
thereisnotry wrote:I think Echo makes a good point. As a summary, I think he's saying this:
-The purpose of Errata is to fix or help fix the un-good elements of the game.
-That's because we want the game to be as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. [There's our mission statement!]
-Some (perhaps many) SWM players are not regulars here on BM or elsewhere, and so there's a good chance they will miss the errata, and suffer unintended bad consequences as a result.
-Therefore we should not errata too quickly or too often.
I think that's a pretty close summary of what he's been saying.
In the end, any discussion of errata comes down to our desire to make the game as fun as possible for as many people as possible. I've said it before: We'll never be able to please everybody! But with that awareness, we still want to please as many as we can. If people are leaving the game because some elements of it are blatantly un-fun (ie, broken or massively screwed up), then we've got a problem...Errata to the rescue!
Having said that, I do think there are good ways to disseminate any (yes, ANY) errata or changes that we have to make:
--Whenever new sets of V-Sets are mailed out and new erratas have been made, include a written summary of the changes and explanation for them; tape, glue, or otherwise affix this written summary to each pack of cards that goes out. On that summary be sure to include a website reference which points people to a thread, which will be stickied at the top of the BM General forum. This thread--called "Collection of All Official SWM Errata to Date" or something like that--will list each of the erratas that we make as a community, along with the dates when these erratas were made and the reasoning behind them. In general, anybody who can find the General forum on BM will have a super-easy time finding all the errata for the game.
-- ^^Heck, we can even put my email address on this piece of paper, telling people that they can email me if they have any questions about the errata. :) The purpose here is to give people an easy contact if they have questions about the errata.
--Some people print their own V-Set cards from a PDF; no problem. Any PDF we publish which contains errata cards will also contain a section which explains the errata and how people should treat X piece going forward. It should also explain that future designers will take this new statblock into account, rather than the replaced one, when making new pieces.
Maybe there are more steps we can take, but each of these steps is a very easy and very user-friendly method of disseminating errata information. I mention this because I think that yes, we DO have the freedom to make ANY errata that we think needs to be made for the health of the game. In other words, I do not think that the "non-BM-ers" should be a road-block (or even a speed bump!) to us making errata, because it is not difficult to disseminate the information to them.
And therefore, our discussion of future errata can keep the focus where it needs to be: on the health of the game and the good of the community. These are fairly good suggestions, I'm glad you spent some time thinking about it. I'm still not sure how absolutely effective it would be, and I still think that the many many players not represented in threads like this are important, but it's a strong start. The other side of the same coin is that we have to keep in mind that there ARE many many players not here. If 5 people aha they want to errata something it doesn't matter how loudly they say it, they are a very small portion of the community. I've heard people lament how so many people are quitting te game because of this or that over the years, but how many people are really leaving? If you are willing to say that people are leaving and the game is dying, that's a pretty extraordinary claim and should come with extraordinary evidence. If you don't like the game and decide to leave it, that's a true shame (I hate losing any players), but if you try to extrapolate that out to say that many people are doing the same thing, I'd like to see reasoning behind that. The result of that line of thinking is that, again, we should think long and hard before doing lots of errata. Let's not say "if you don't do X people will keep leaving in droves" without even determining if it's accurate to say people are leaving in droves.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/2/2012
Posts: 746
|
droidadmiral wrote:From AceAce:
"If you or your friends or play group don't like it agree not to play it. I see so few posters on so many threads who I have ever seen at GenCon or any of the Regionals I have regularly attended. If you don't play competitively, no offense but I don't weigh those opinions as much as I do from others. Large competitive groups such as NZ obviously hold much sway and should because they play big events and have very good players. 2 guys from Topeka, I don't much worry about their thoughts unless they are precursors to actual abuse of mini(s) and continued abuse at large events."
From SWM group on Facebook:
"Also on a final note, if you are not playing in the competitive tournaments around the country or world, then simply have a house rule not to use the pieces that you deem broken."
continued from SWM Facebook:
"But, again, if you're not competitive, don't use the new stuff. Make your own stuff. " Echo24 wrote:I've never said anything like that, and disagree strongly with those sentiments. Slightly off-topic, but, if people disagree, why doesn't anyone ever say anything? I've seen sentiments like these expressed a lot, and there are rarely any voices raised in dissent. Regardless if people agree or disagree, it creates the perception that those sentiments are a majority opinion, which in turn leads to a lot of bitterness and feelings of neglect. "Why should I be involved with this community which obviously doesn't value my opinions?", or, "Why should I bother caring about the tone conveyed in my posts, when they aren't even going to care about what I say?" If people really do disagree with those sentiments, then please say something next time. Because I can assure you, more people than just droidadmiral have perceived that the community doesn't care about players who don't compete in tournaments.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
|
That's a fair point. I'll try to keep it in mind. Thanks for the feedback. 
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/9/2009
Posts: 1,935
|
What if Rapport's wording was changed from "(Should a situation ever arise in which different characters’ Rapport abilities could reduce a character’s cost below 1, its minimum cost is 1.)" to "minimum cost 3" that way you don't hurt poggle or Gha helping nonannoying pieces. Just stops 2 point pieces.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
|
AndyHatton wrote:What if Rapport's wording was changed from "(Should a situation ever arise in which different characters’ Rapport abilities could reduce a character’s cost below 1, its minimum cost is 1.)" to "minimum cost 3" that way you don't hurt poggle or Gha helping nonannoying pieces. Just stops 2 point pieces. +1
|
|
Rank: Junk Golem
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 23
|
AndyHatton wrote:What if Rapport's wording was changed from "(Should a situation ever arise in which different characters’ Rapport abilities could reduce a character’s cost below 1, its minimum cost is 1.)" to "minimum cost 3" that way you don't hurt poggle or Gha helping nonannoying pieces. Just stops 2 point pieces. That's a fantastic suggestion. Seems like a clean way of fixing 2 point pieces.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,098
Location: Kokomo
|
TimmerB123 wrote:I have more of an issue with it on a conceptual level than thinking it's gamebreaking.
Attacks are (and always should be) the core of our game. - - - ->
An ability that allows someone to avoid infinite damage from ANY attack for FREE is ridiculous (imo)
Does it represent a Jedi Master well? Yes! But if this game functioned like the movies, it would be the most boring game in the world. It would be play jedi or lose.
The best part of minis (to me) is all the combos you can create and compete with. If jedi are the super ultra powered figures they are in the movies - that's all that could compete, and it would get stale quick.
I think people have to get over trying to make everything in our game exactly like the movies. It is a strategy game first and foremost, and has a Star Wars theme. I love Star Wars, but I love the game for being BOTH Star Wars AND a great strategy game. And since we have 1 million other outlets for Star Wars, our game is first and foremost a game. I agree that an ability should not give one too much of an advantage. However, In my experiences rolling D20, even needing a save 7, I cannot avoid damage infinitely. But a person's perception of the Star Wars Movies is subjective. I would argue how does the game not function like the movies? What happened to all the Jedi in the movies? They were all shot down by troops or went into hiding to become useless after Order 66. What happened to all the Jedi in the game? They were all shot down by troops and went into the the bin of darkness after "V-Set 6" I disagree with the notion that movie Jedi are super ultra powerful beings...they can be killed by a properly placed blaster bolt. But still a lot of people decline my Star Wars RPG games because, "there's no point in playing because Jedi are too powerful." I've played several campaigns where the GM will up some BS to "take away the force" to keep Jedi from being too powerful. Really?! Come on guys, didn't you watch Vader duel Obi-Wan in a New Hope?? You call that super ultra powerful combat? It's just a matter of doing the work to properly balance Jedi into the game. Here's my perception of how movie Jedi would be translated into the game.. 10 to 12 low cost shooters should normally kill about any force user. Assuming the shooters are clustered and the Jedi gets to them... Padawan or Apprentice vs 10 troopers = around 2 kills before death Jedi or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 4 kills before death Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 6 kills before death Grand Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 8 kills before death Currently 10 to 12 shooters can kill anything without much of a fight. Jedi shouldn't be overpowered, but they should have a place in the game.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/30/2014
Posts: 1,055
|
DarkDracul wrote:
I agree that an ability should not give one too much of an advantage.
However, In my experiences rolling D20, even needing a save 7, I cannot avoid damage infinitely.
I've played GOWK a lot, and I would have to agree. The group I play with is WotC-only, and even then I often lose GOWK much sooner than I had hoped. Granted, I never have a Tier 1 squad, and I'm not a Tier 1 competitive player, but neither are the others in my playgroup.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
|
I dont have that much experience with Standard, so playing this NZ tournament has let me see a few things.
Klat Assassin HAS to go if melee force users are going to be viable.
I just played against them last night they stood in cover and shot Maul for 30 DAMAGE! and than the same to Sidious with a 12 attack rating that can be boosted. Why do they have Jedi hatred?
Anyway my proposed change to Klat Assasin is as follows
Klat Assassin, cost 12
HP 40
Def 14
Attk 9
Damage 10
Stealth
Jedi Hatred
Self Destruct 10
This still lets them be a viable option. In Talon squads they still are good, still drop 30 on a jedi, but are limited. I feel like this design would still be played.
Man eating that damage from a 12 point piece is hard, it literally makes a lot of melee pieces without ranged defense impossible to play. Might as well not design melee pieces without super ranged defense any more, like ever, unless they have stealth and a movement breaker or something.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
|
DarkDracul wrote:
I agree that an ability should not give one too much of an advantage.
However, In my experiences rolling D20, even needing a save 7, I cannot avoid damage infinitely.
But a person's perception of the Star Wars Movies is subjective.
I would argue how does the game not function like the movies?
What happened to all the Jedi in the movies? They were all shot down by troops or went into hiding to become useless after Order 66.
What happened to all the Jedi in the game? They were all shot down by troops and went into the the bin of darkness after "V-Set 6"
I disagree with the notion that movie Jedi are super ultra powerful beings...they can be killed by a properly placed blaster bolt.
But still a lot of people decline my Star Wars RPG games because, "there's no point in playing because Jedi are too powerful."
I've played several campaigns where the GM will up some BS to "take away the force" to keep Jedi from being too powerful.
Really?! Come on guys, didn't you watch Vader duel Obi-Wan in a New Hope?? You call that super ultra powerful combat?
It's just a matter of doing the work to properly balance Jedi into the game.
Here's my perception of how movie Jedi would be translated into the game..
10 to 12 low cost shooters should normally kill about any force user.
Assuming the shooters are clustered and the Jedi gets to them...
Padawan or Apprentice vs 10 troopers = around 2 kills before death
Jedi or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 4 kills before death
Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 6 kills before death
Grand Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 8 kills before death
Currently 10 to 12 shooters can kill anything without much of a fight.
Jedi shouldn't be overpowered, but they should have a place in the game.
@ bold how? what you see is what you see, not much more interpretation to be subjective in my opinion when discussing what happened (maybe the reasoning and yadda yadda are subjective). Jedi can take on tons of shooters how about Yoda in Cone Wars hopping around on 20 battle droids heads and falling tanks while he is at it? What about Greivous easily taking on many Clone Troopers? Or Asajj Ventress? What about Ahsoka Tano running away from dozens of Storm troopers? She ran and blocked every shot multiple times. Sure she didn't take them on, but she was never hit by hundreds of shots. Point being that Jedi have the capacity to destroy lots and lots of "non-unique" shooters. The problem with the game is when these non-uniques are granted extra attacks or attack boosts that are too high or damage boosts. Your run of the mill trooper should not be getting higher than a 9 attack ever, your run of the mill trooper should never do more than 20 damage, ever. It is ridiculous that a jedi can run up and hit a trooper for 20 damage and than got shot at for more damage than his lightsaber just did and the trooper has a better attack rating. haha
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
|
I just played against the Sidious Hologram thing.
i would errata that sucker to only force users gaining force renewal 1. no need for ugnaughts and things to have access to the force.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/8/2010
Posts: 3,623
|
jen'ari wrote:DarkDracul wrote:
I agree that an ability should not give one too much of an advantage.
However, In my experiences rolling D20, even needing a save 7, I cannot avoid damage infinitely.
But a person's perception of the Star Wars Movies is subjective.
I would argue how does the game not function like the movies?
What happened to all the Jedi in the movies? They were all shot down by troops or went into hiding to become useless after Order 66.
What happened to all the Jedi in the game? They were all shot down by troops and went into the the bin of darkness after "V-Set 6"
I disagree with the notion that movie Jedi are super ultra powerful beings...they can be killed by a properly placed blaster bolt.
But still a lot of people decline my Star Wars RPG games because, "there's no point in playing because Jedi are too powerful."
I've played several campaigns where the GM will up some BS to "take away the force" to keep Jedi from being too powerful.
Really?! Come on guys, didn't you watch Vader duel Obi-Wan in a New Hope?? You call that super ultra powerful combat?
It's just a matter of doing the work to properly balance Jedi into the game.
Here's my perception of how movie Jedi would be translated into the game..
10 to 12 low cost shooters should normally kill about any force user.
Assuming the shooters are clustered and the Jedi gets to them...
Padawan or Apprentice vs 10 troopers = around 2 kills before death
Jedi or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 4 kills before death
Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 6 kills before death
Grand Master or Sith vs 10 troopers = around 8 kills before death
Currently 10 to 12 shooters can kill anything without much of a fight.
Jedi shouldn't be overpowered, but they should have a place in the game.
@ bold how? what you see is what you see, not much more interpretation to be subjective in my opinion when discussing what happened (maybe the reasoning and yadda yadda are subjective). Jedi can take on tons of shooters how about Yoda in Cone Wars hopping around on 20 battle droids heads and falling tanks while he is at it? What about Greivous easily taking on many Clone Troopers? Or Asajj Ventress? What about Ahsoka Tano running away from dozens of Storm troopers? She ran and blocked every shot multiple times. Sure she didn't take them on, but she was never hit by hundreds of shots. Point being that Jedi have the capacity to destroy lots and lots of "non-unique" shooters. The problem with the game is when these non-uniques are granted extra attacks or attack boosts that are too high or damage boosts. Your run of the mill trooper should not be getting higher than a 9 attack ever, your run of the mill trooper should never do more than 20 damage, ever. It is ridiculous that a jedi can run up and hit a trooper for 20 damage and than got shot at for more damage than his lightsaber just did and the trooper has a better attack rating. haha I think that is what the epics/BHC pieces are representing is them at their "uber destruction mode"
|
|
Rank: Republic Commando
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/10/2013
Posts: 16
|
my opinion is with flight. in SWM u can just freely fly over people whenever u want. i think flight should be represented how it is in D&DM when a character with flight moves if they are adjacent to enemy characters those character should get an AOO when the character with flight go to take off. that way melee pieces cant get screwed over by a shooter who has double/twin with potential to deal 80-100+ damage. this way the melee piece can atleast get some damage in before being blasted to kingdom come
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
|
If there is one more piece that I think needs some consideration into needing an errata, its those Neo Crusader Officers. They have the best cannon shot CE in the game. Period!  Even if you only activate one person when you win init, with Kelborn and Vindicated, you can go first with the Neo Officer, shoot 3 times maybe getting 60 dmg and then tripple with Vindicated for 90 more. And that is just with one activation. This piece just makes me really made in how insanely overpowered it's CE is. The CDO cannon shots were deemed a problem, well what about the Neo Crusaders cannon shot CE that is 2 times better! It's quite easy to get a 18 square range on these guys (kelborn moves people 6 before first activation, move Vindicated 12, Neo officer uses CE to make Vindicated unload). In the popular Neo Crusader squads that are being run right now, they feature 2 Neo Officers, Mandalore the Vindicated, Kelborn and a Mando Tactician. If they get los (kinda easy to do) and win init, that is 3 activations in the first turn. That leads to this activation order: Neo officer (60 dnmg) then cannon CE Mandalore the Vindicated (90 dmg) + second Neo Officer (60 dmg) then cannon shot Mandalore the vindicated (90 dmg) + Mandalore the Vindicated's regular turn (90 dmg) + move someone to safety = 390 dmg in the first turn. 390 dmg! The only thing right now that is hindering this type of squad right now is its low activations, but with its got insane movement breakers (one free intuition and a pseudo movement breaker with the Cannon CE), and the most over powered Cannon shot CE in he game. I think the intent of the Neo Crusader Officer was to help other Neo Crusaders, but all I am seeing is him giving free Tripple Attacks to Mandalore the Vindicated. To fix this and somewhat power it down, i think it needs to be changed to affect only followers. With it affecting allies, it is just too good. At least if it affect followers, the existing Neo crusader followers have a low enough attack that the Cannon shot CE isn't nearly as effective, but when you have a +15 attack Mandalore the Vindicated doing 30dmg shots and if he crits god help you, then that pushes it over the line I think. This piece is a big problem, and before we worry about mouse droids errata's and whatever else, this needs to be looked at first if melee ever wants to have a comeback. I feel very strongly that this piece is a problem, and while I don't like the talk about errata's and banning pieces, this piece is in need of one the most currently IMO. I don't want this post to come off as a slight against whoever designed this peice, because I think the designers intent was good (dealing with swarms and helping the Neo Crusader sub faction), its just with the CE affecting everyone it isn't following its intent, similar to how the CDO isn't being used to help the WotC Commando Droids. Maybe this piece wasn't playtested enough, similar to the CDO and that is how it got to final approval without seeing the ramifications. This piece would be fine and still be powerful if its CE worked only for followers, its just overpowered when it can be used on all allies. With what Lou brought up on SHNN last night, as long as pieces like the Neo Crusader Officers are around that give shooters insane amounts of damage, melee squads don't stand a chance. With Poggle gone and the klats gone, it helped the Jedi squads and as Lou said on the show, melee squads might have a chance, but currently this piece will always be a hindrance towards future designs of mando pieces and a hindrance against melee squads. The Mando's have a good squad also with the new Te Ani'la Mand'alor and the neo officers that have Cassus Fett (not sure its better than the current squad with Mandalore the Vindicated squads but I'm sure we'll see it somewhere down the line), and so if you think init control will help you, guess again. Never tell me the odds will shut down just about every competitive option for init control in the game, so good luck dealing with that 390 dmg to start the round.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 564
|
It should definitely be fixed.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,784
Location: Canada
|
@ Mando: Yes, that is something that has been discussed. There is no question that the CE cannot be for "allies"...the question is whether or not it should directly and only apply to "Neo-Crusader Followers" or something else like that. IMHO, if I'm understanding things correctly, it's a question of When and How, and not If, this piece will receive an errata.
Obviously I'm just 1 person and can't make any promises. But I'm just trying to reassure you that you are definitely not alone, and that many others have recognized the problem and agree that something needs to be fixed. I hope that helps. :)
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/12/2010
Posts: 564
|
Thanks TINT!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/14/2008
Posts: 1,410
Location: Chokio, MN
|
thereisnotry wrote:@ Mando: Yes, that is something that has been discussed. There is no question that the CE cannot be for "allies"...the question is whether or not it should directly and only apply to "Neo-Crusader Followers" or something else like that. IMHO, if I'm understanding things correctly, it's a question of When and How, and not If, this piece will receive an errata.
Obviously I'm just 1 person and can't make any promises. But I'm just trying to reassure you that you are definitely not alone, and that many others have recognized the problem and agree that something needs to be fixed. I hope that helps. :) Thanks Trevor! I know that a lot of people have had a problem with it, such as the players from NZ, and so I am glad that this is going to be addressed. It just makes my head hurt whenever think about taking a jedi squad and doing well with it at a tournament and I have to think of this monstrosity showing up and completely hosing my squad in not just one round...but one turn. Eesssh.  Its a big NPE and I am really happy this is going to be dealt with! Also I just want to give my thanks to the community leaders who formed a new committee to handle balance for the coming years. It's an excellent idea and it will lead to a more balanced game I think overall. 
|
|
|
Guest |