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jen'ari wrote:
Is this a real piece? I am asking because I really really really hope it is not.
LMFHO......how many times have I asked this very same question......
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TheHutts wrote:
He doesn't actually have renewal - so he needs to give up a turn to get up to 8, and he's unlikely to give up a second turn. It's comparable to a piece starting with force 2 and getting renewal 2 for the first three rounds. I think it's a cool mechanic.
alrighty than. Serenity has literally sealed the deal for me for a very long time. see you all next year for set 11.
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I don't think he's even Tier 1 - he's a decent piece, but it's hard for him to see play over Mace, who has GMA. He can get up to 120 damage, but it's very situational - he has to start next to the piece he's attacking and has to get his Ataru.
Maybe his best pairing is with Yobuck? Yobuck benefits from the Renewal and Defense and can help clear the field for him to get Ataru on something.
Otherwise something with Force Pull?
Generally, I think Jedi just get too much scrutiny - Qui-Gon got a bunch of playtests, and I'd be dumbfounded if he turns out to be a problematic piece. It's almost always the unexpected synergies involving non-uniques that have needed to be toned down in the v-sets.
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I really like Serenity; it's a creative way to get force points besides renewal
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I think the problem is not with what he will do in the current meta, its what happens when the game shifts back to melee, if it ever does.
if people start running melee and don't have swarms,then suddenly with tow cable, or force pull it will be a lot easier to get ataru mastery off, then you have a sub 60 point piece triple twinning with a 19 attack and motf 2 and defense, and a big auto damage force power, and an awesome commander effect, and when he dies you get a great force spirit.
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but in the current meta..... I don't think he is an issue.
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Initially Jinn looked like too much but on second glance he doesn't seem too much more powerful then others in his price range. Plus the only real powerful force power he can use is push and that will drain him somewhat quick. You know what, I like him. The red hand on the other hand.... Yeah Seps need a lot of work haha. At least he has bounty hunter?
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I don't know... maybe this is best you can do with new qui-gon right now?
56 new qui-gon
39 Quinlan Vos, Double Agent
29 Aayla Secura, Jedi Knight
28 Mira of Nar Shaddaa
27 Lobot
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
6 Mouse Droid x2
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
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I kind of like this one, you definitely aren't maxing out the potential on his CE though.
--Qui-buck--
56 New Quigon
51 Yoda on Kybuck
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
12 Gha Nachkt
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
9 Rodian Brute x3
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist
2 Mouse Droid
(200pts. 13 activations)
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it is hardly ever about if it is too powerful. It is about the possibilities.
I think you run him with Mace, wait til the start of the fourth round to move in, Mace now has 10 force points, Qui-Gon has 20. Mace has Lightsaber Defense with MoF2.
Qui-Gon has Evade with Lightsaber Defense, MoF2 and 20 force points.
20 force points on round 4. why is that ever a possibility? it is beyond silly. So now in the same army you have like the ability to do infinity damage and have the most force points we have ever seen.
I just do not understand why there is not a drawback to Serenity (like use once a skirmish would be just fine) when it is in a faction with tow cable.
Tier 1 or not does not mean anything to me when I am trying to enjoy the game.
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My army would be this
Mace LotLS
Qui-Gon
Panaka
Evazan
R2-D2
Amedda
R7
Uggies x 3
R Brutes x 2
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jen'ari wrote:it is hardly ever about if it is too powerful. It is about the possibilities.
I think you run him with Mace, wait til the start of the fourth round to move in, Mace now has 10 force points, Qui-Gon has 20. Mace has Lightsaber Defense with MoF2.
Qui-Gon has Evade with Lightsaber Defense, MoF2 and 20 force points.
20 force points on round 4. why is that ever a possibility? it is beyond silly. So now in the same army you have like the ability to do infinity damage and have the most force points we have ever seen.
I just do not understand why there is not a drawback to Serenity (like use once a skirmish would be just fine) when it is in a faction with tow cable.
Tier 1 or not does not mean anything to me when I am trying to enjoy the game. There are other ways to jack up force points on a character too (looking at you Sith ghosts and force spirit). I was thinking the same thing as you until I realized that the real thing is he can't really do anything with his force points. He can protect himself against shots/melee but it's still only a 50/50 chance and he will burn through the points pretty quick against a swarm twinning team especially without ranged combat expert or mettle. And offensively it's really just one force push a turn. Not to mention in the example you gave, against a swarm army again by turn 4 the game is pretty close to over as they are activating each round and actually doing things like gambit and even possibly engaging this team. Also not even throwing in overwhelming power, brutal strike, and other direct damage dealers. He is definitely tier 1 but nothing special and not the top by far.
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jen'ari wrote:20 force points on round 4. why is that ever a possibility? it is beyond silly. So now in the same army you have like the ability to do infinity damage and have the most force points we have ever seen. With a dead Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker and Yoda could have 20 force points (and Master of the Force 4!) after they renew at the start of round 3. It does involve sacrificing a 38 point piece, but it's not an unrealistic situation, and it's achievable while engaging.
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TheHutts wrote:jen'ari wrote:20 force points on round 4. why is that ever a possibility? it is beyond silly. So now in the same army you have like the ability to do infinity damage and have the most force points we have ever seen. With a dead Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker and Yoda could have 20 force points (and Master of the Force 4!) after they renew at the start of round 3. It does involve sacrificing a 38 point piece, but it's not an unrealistic situation, and it's achievable while engaging. oh gosh, this is where we are at here? trying to make it seem like this is not something new? That combo costs 108 points and you are getting 3 characters. So it is not Yoda and Luke one character gaining 20 force points, its Yoda has some force points and Luke gains some force points. On top of that they did not earn the 8 force points from Obi-Wan they were given to him. Point being that scenario makes a lot more sense than Qui-Gon (gets killed by friggin Darth Maul) having potentially the most force points in the entire game. Qui-Gon does it on his own. Force Spirit 8. yep If i am playing against that Obi-Wan I am never killing it. so you better have a way of sacrificing it. That Luke and Yoda doesnt even have Lightsaber Defense. There is no full board swap (there is swap through K-3P0, now you are at 128 points). There is no levitation that I know of. The differences are outstanding. 20 force points from ONE character on round 4 is absurd, everyone knows this, why even argue it? why am I even arguing it? It is really a neat idea to get force points in a unique way, but missed the mark because of R2-D2 and not having a limit, its ludicrous.
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TheHutts wrote:jen'ari wrote:20 force points on round 4. why is that ever a possibility? it is beyond silly. So now in the same army you have like the ability to do infinity damage and have the most force points we have ever seen. With a dead Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker and Yoda could have 20 force points (and Master of the Force 4!) after they renew at the start of round 3. It does involve sacrificing a 38 point piece, but it's not an unrealistic situation, and it's achievable while engaging. I hear arguments like this all the time. Well Dash Rendar renegade smuggler has double, twin, and greater mobile and costs under 30 so my 30 point piece is justified in being able to do it too. Its a bad argument. So what, there is something like that which exists that the Vsets didn't make, that was all wotc. They also put out crap like reikan that gave out mobile and evade on a cheap commander, and they put out an 8PT piece that can boost CEs board wide that doesn't mean we need to do the same. My dislike for this qui gon has nothing to do with serenity. It has to due with the fact that it has 7Sa's (counting unique) 8 force powers, and a CE. This piece has way too much going on. And on a 50 point piece. Kind of reminds me of Super Boba Fett that came out a while back that is easily the best shooter in the game, and has 11Sa's. That piece also had a lot of stuff that it didn't need.
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General_Grievous wrote:
There are other ways to jack up force points on a character too (looking at you Sith ghosts and force spirit). I was thinking the same thing as you until I realized that the real thing is he can't really do anything with his force points. He can protect himself against shots/melee but it's still only a 50/50 chance and he will burn through the points pretty quick against a swarm twinning team especially without ranged combat expert or mettle. And offensively it's really just one force push a turn. Not to mention in the example you gave, against a swarm army again by turn 4 the game is pretty close to over as they are activating each round and actually doing things like gambit and even possibly engaging this team. Also not even throwing in overwhelming power, brutal strike, and other direct damage dealers. He is definitely tier 1 but nothing special and not the top by far.
Dont care if he is tier 1 or not. I care about representation. A triple twinning Qui-Gon should never happen A 20 force point Qui-Gon should never happen A mace Windu with Lightsaber Defense is hard to swallow. Heck I would even say Force push 4 should not be on Qui-Gon
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jen'ari wrote:Dont care if he is tier 1 or not. I care about representation.
A triple twinning Qui-Gon should never happen
A 20 force point Qui-Gon should never happen
Heck I would even say Force push 4 should not be on Qui-Gon According to Wookiepedia, "Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his skilled contemporaries; notably his mentor, Dooku, and Anoon Bondara. Jinn was a master of the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru" (and he was 60 at the time of the Phantom Menace, so he was past his peak). "Jinn had considerable skill with telekinesis; lifting people or objects, dislodging enemies with a single Force Push, and dismantling droids. During his mission to rescue Adi Gallia, he used Saber Throw to dislodge a droid attached to a turbolift shaft. He also applied a meditative trance known as Serenity, granting him renewed strength and focus, as seen during the momentary break in his final duel with Darth Maul." I think that there's canonical justification for all the aspects that you're worried about.
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TheHutts wrote:jen'ari wrote:Dont care if he is tier 1 or not. I care about representation.
A triple twinning Qui-Gon should never happen
A 20 force point Qui-Gon should never happen
Heck I would even say Force push 4 should not be on Qui-Gon According to Wookiepedia, "Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his skilled contemporaries; notably his mentor, Dooku, and Anoon Bondara. Jinn was a master of the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru" (and he was 60 at the time of the Phantom Menace, so he was past his peak). "Jinn had considerable skill with telekinesis; lifting people or objects, dislodging enemies with a single Force Push, and dismantling droids. During his mission to rescue Adi Gallia, he used Saber Throw to dislodge a droid attached to a turbolift shaft. He also applied a meditative trance known as Serenity, granting him renewed strength and focus, as seen during the momentary break in his final duel with Darth Maul." I think that there's canonical justification for all the aspects that you're worried about. not at all. dislodging enemies and dismantling battle droids is not impressive one bit. lifting people or objects, ya, not impressive. just normal. force push 2 comes to mind As far as triple twin goes. ummm... Mace has triple. there you go. But wait... here is more 55 point Yoda has double with Ataru mastery 100 point yoda has triple with ataru mastery You know else has triple twin? the Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. So if you think Qui-Gon Jinn is on par with Yoda than sure its justified. Justification? in a dream land. I haven't seen this much twisting since The Affordable Care Act was passed.
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jen'ari wrote:TheHutts wrote:jen'ari wrote:Dont care if he is tier 1 or not. I care about representation.
A triple twinning Qui-Gon should never happen
A 20 force point Qui-Gon should never happen
Heck I would even say Force push 4 should not be on Qui-Gon According to Wookiepedia, "Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his skilled contemporaries; notably his mentor, Dooku, and Anoon Bondara. Jinn was a master of the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru" (and he was 60 at the time of the Phantom Menace, so he was past his peak). "Jinn had considerable skill with telekinesis; lifting people or objects, dislodging enemies with a single Force Push, and dismantling droids. During his mission to rescue Adi Gallia, he used Saber Throw to dislodge a droid attached to a turbolift shaft. He also applied a meditative trance known as Serenity, granting him renewed strength and focus, as seen during the momentary break in his final duel with Darth Maul." I think that there's canonical justification for all the aspects that you're worried about. not at all. dislodging enemies and dismantling battle droids is not impressive one bit. lifting people or objects, ya, not impressive. just normal. force push 2 comes to mind As far as triple twin goes. ummm... Mace has triple. there you go. But wait... here is more 55 point Yoda has double with Ataru mastery 100 point yoda has triple with ataru mastery You know else has triple twin? the Grandmaster Luke Skywalker. So if you think Qui-Gon Jinn is on par with Yoda than sure its justified. Justification? in a dream land. I haven't seen this much twisting since The Affordable Care Act was passed. So how have your playtests gone with new Qui Gon?
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Imagine that, another piece that is beyond undercosted. How long till you have to retcon him? (Quigon)
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