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TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, June 14, 2015 8:10:34 PM
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This is why Jedi end up struggling in this game - as soon as there's one that looks remotely useful, it gets picked to pieces.

Qui-Gon's an interesting piece, and his high hit points and Evade make him very playable, but I'm very dubious that he'll ever be a problem on the competitive tables. It's simple to nerf Ataru Mastery with a diplomat. I also think that the lack of Greater Mobile Attack is a major drawback - I'd happily pay another 10 points for him just to get GMA.

I think the best comparison is Luke, Galactic Hero - with Jedi Hunter, Ataru Mastery, and double, he can also do 120 damage once he gets one piece within 6 squares. Luke has the advantage of GMA, so he can do his 120 on the move, but really his Ataru only comes into play for his Throw or for final cleanup (he's one of the best cleanup pieces in the game). Luke's a very strong piece - he obviously won GenCon - but I don't know that anyone's ever complained about him being bad for the game.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 1:37:49 AM
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I never said it is not useful. I said it looks dumb. You say he is interesting, I say sure, he is interesting. The same way a buffalo patty is interesting. (I mean you can start fires with it, cmon, that's interesting).
Jedi can by useful and still retain components of themselves. triple twin, force push 4, massive force points are not Qui-Gon Ginn. He has other very useful aspects.

As to theweeks. Play test?? it is out of the question, I will not go near the piece. I will never play that piece, ever. Serenity (the name of my favorite space ship) is that terrible a force power, and that terrible a representation in my personal opinion.

Power level aside I just really really really hate it. So I will wait for set 11 to see if there are some good representation of jedi in their. I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.
juice man
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:26:02 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I never said it is not useful. I said it looks dumb. You say he is interesting, I say sure, he is interesting. The same way a buffalo patty is interesting. (I mean you can start fires with it, cmon, that's interesting).
Jedi can by useful and still retain components of themselves. triple twin, force push 4, massive force points are not Qui-Gon Ginn. He has other very useful aspects.

As to theweeks. Play test?? it is out of the question, I will not go near the piece. I will never play that piece, ever. Serenity (the name of my favorite space ship) is that terrible a force power, and that terrible a representation in my personal opinion.

Power level aside I just really really really hate it. So I will wait for set 11 to see if there are some good representation of jedi in their. I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.
Yep. No "bashing" here.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:28:26 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I never said it is not useful. I said it looks dumb. You say he is interesting, I say sure, he is interesting. The same way a buffalo patty is interesting. (I mean you can start fires with it, cmon, that's interesting).
Jedi can by useful and still retain components of themselves. triple twin, force push 4, massive force points are not Qui-Gon Ginn. He has other very useful aspects.

As to theweeks. Play test?? it is out of the question, I will not go near the piece. I will never play that piece, ever. Serenity (the name of my favorite space ship) is that terrible a force power, and that terrible a representation in my personal opinion.

Power level aside I just really really really hate it. So I will wait for set 11 to see if there are some good representation of jedi in their. I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.


Here is the thing. Everyone has different Representations of Quigon, and Abilities Like Serenity. Honestly i don't think it is an Issue, Because if you are Towing Quigon with R2 to Gambit for the First 2 rounds, he and R2 are likely going to take damage. Yes he has MOTF 2 and Defense, but he isnt going to defense a ton of attacks that way, and still have force points to spare. Swarms would tear it up, easily, as well i think my Durge Squad would do Decent Against him and mace.
Echo24
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:35:44 AM
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juice man wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
I never said it is not useful. I said it looks dumb. You say he is interesting, I say sure, he is interesting. The same way a buffalo patty is interesting. (I mean you can start fires with it, cmon, that's interesting).
Jedi can by useful and still retain components of themselves. triple twin, force push 4, massive force points are not Qui-Gon Ginn. He has other very useful aspects.

As to theweeks. Play test?? it is out of the question, I will not go near the piece. I will never play that piece, ever. Serenity (the name of my favorite space ship) is that terrible a force power, and that terrible a representation in my personal opinion.

Power level aside I just really really really hate it. So I will wait for set 11 to see if there are some good representation of jedi in their. I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.
Yep. No "bashing" here.


Have I ever told you that you're my favorite poster, Joe? You're my favorite poster.
leshippy
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 4:58:23 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.


Educate yourself beyond the movies. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Qui-Gon_Jinn

I know the Hutts already posted it, but just a reminder.

Text from the link above -

"Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the finest swordsman in the Jedi Order, having frequent sparring experience with many of his skilled contemporaries; notably his mentor, Dooku, and Anoon Bondara.[88][89] Jinn was a master of the fourth form of lightsaber combat, Ataru. In combat, his bladework was wide and powerful, marked by heavy, two-handed slashes and sudden flourishes to cover his flanks. Jinn's mastery of Ataru was such that he could easily defeat blaster-wielding opponents despite the form's weakness to blaster fire.[4] Rather than engaging in the energetic acrobatics typical of most Ataru specialists, Jinn, at least in his later years, tended to stay grounded during lightsaber duels.[4] That being said, he remained fully capable of utilizing acrobatic attacks and maneuvers during combat.[29] Jinn was also capable of effectively employing unarmed combat strikes into his lightsaber sequences.[4]"

"Jinn had considerable skill with telekinesis; lifting people or objects,[94] dislodging enemies with a single Force Push,[4] and dismantling droids.[10] During his mission to rescue Adi Gallia, he used Saber Throw to dislodge a droid attached to a turbolift shaft.[93] He also applied a meditative trance known as Serenity, granting him renewed strength and focus,[95] as seen during the momentary break in his final duel with Darth Maul.[4]"
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 4:58:33 AM
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I just logged on to make sure everyone is as outraged as I am over this new Qui-gon piece. I'm sure he had a lot of playtesting and bla bla bla whatever. I think if he were 15 more points, it would be less of a problem.
leshippy
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 5:04:49 AM
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theultrastar wrote:


My dislike for this qui gon has nothing to do with serenity. It has to due with the fact that it has 7Sa's (counting unique) 8 force powers, and a CE. This piece has way too much going on. And on a 50 point piece. Kind of reminds me of Super Boba Fett that came out a while back that is easily the best shooter in the game, and has 11Sa's. That piece also had a lot of stuff that it didn't need.


7 SAs including unique, but also including SAs that have been around forever. Melee..Triple Attack...Evade...Mobile.. As Dean would say "Really?!"

8 Force Powers? If you include that he starts with force and has MOTF 2 then yeah but come on man give me an effing break.

Next are you going to start counting how many letters are on the card nd say that is too much as well?
leshippy
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 5:11:20 AM
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theultrastar wrote:


My dislike for this qui gon has nothing to do with serenity. It has to due with the fact that it has 7Sa's (counting unique) 8 force powers, and a CE. This piece has way too much going on. And on a 50 point piece. Kind of reminds me of Super Boba Fett that came out a while back that is easily the best shooter in the game, and has 11Sa's. That piece also had a lot of stuff that it didn't need.


This also seems sort of an odd argument when Revan from Legends has 10 SAs And the Bane has 7 Force powers
Mando
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 5:22:27 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
I never said it is not useful. I said it looks dumb. You say he is interesting, I say sure, he is interesting. The same way a buffalo patty is interesting. (I mean you can start fires with it, cmon, that's interesting).
Jedi can by useful and still retain components of themselves. triple twin, force push 4, massive force points are not Qui-Gon Ginn. He has other very useful aspects.

As to theweeks. Play test?? it is out of the question, I will not go near the piece. I will never play that piece, ever. Serenity (the name of my favorite space ship) is that terrible a force power, and that terrible a representation in my personal opinion.

Power level aside I just really really really hate it. So I will wait for set 11 to see if there are some good representation of jedi in their. I am not trying to "bash" I am just trying to say that as we shift to jedi being competitive lets not go crazy, lets stay in the bounds of the portrayals of characters.


You may refuse to playtest this piece, but I can assure you that this piece was playtested many times, a couple by myself, and I can assure you there isn't any overpowered squad that will hurt the game. I find it kinda ridiculous that whenever a strong melee piece comes out it gets criticized to this much extent. You guys just need to beleive that these pieces in Vset 10 were playtested extensively and any precieved imbalances were tested. Qui gon is strong, but not overpowered. He helps out the Jedi in the Republic faction a lot. You mentioned earlier that he could get 20 fp in 4 rounds. Sure he can, but no one in all the playtests ever did that because it would be ridiculousness to even think that is the best use of him in a competitive squad. When you are setting aside 1/4 of you competitive to do nothing but gain force points so that you can do 40 dmg with force push every round for 5 rounds after spending 4 rounds getting to that point, you are going to lose every single game you try that in. Qui Gon is a big investment to have in the squad to not use him by replacing his turn using Serenity. In the playtests it was used once maybe twice in a match, and R2 or foul Modama were there to pick him up and bring him up the map to be in the action. This piece was playtested by good players. There was no problem at all with it in its final form which is what has been released in the Vset.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 6:02:21 AM
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. . . really?RollEyes
jak
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 6:44:35 AM
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jen'ari wrote:
TheHutts wrote:


He doesn't actually have renewal - so he needs to give up a turn to get up to 8, and he's unlikely to give up a second turn. It's comparable to a piece starting with force 2 and getting renewal 2 for the first three rounds. I think it's a cool mechanic.


alrighty than. Serenity has literally sealed the deal for me for a very long time. see you all next year for set 11.

might want to wait til 12Wink
Weeks
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 7:09:08 AM
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

If you don't test then you're not completing the process.
juice man
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 7:30:21 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
Have I ever told you that you're my favorite poster, Joe? You're my favorite poster.
Blushing BigGrin
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 8:39:32 AM
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Mando wrote:
You may refuse to playtest this piece, but I can assure you that this piece was playtested many times, a couple by myself, and I can assure you there isn't any overpowered squad that will hurt the game. I find it kinda ridiculous that whenever a strong melee piece comes out it gets criticized to this much extent. You guys just need to beleive that these pieces in Vset 10 were playtested extensively and any precieved imbalances were tested. Qui gon is strong, but not overpowered. He helps out the Jedi in the Republic faction a lot. You mentioned earlier that he could get 20 fp in 4 rounds. Sure he can, but no one in all the playtests ever did that because it would be ridiculousness to even think that is the best use of him in a competitive squad. When you are setting aside 1/4 of you competitive to do nothing but gain force points so that you can do 40 dmg with force push every round for 5 rounds after spending 4 rounds getting to that point, you are going to lose every single game you try that in. Qui Gon is a big investment to have in the squad to not use him by replacing his turn using Serenity. In the playtests it was used once maybe twice in a match, and R2 or foul Modama were there to pick him up and bring him up the map to be in the action. This piece was playtested by good players. There was no problem at all with it in its final form which is what has been released in the Vset.


The problem I am coming to find is that most play tests are just used to make sure the mechanics interact as desired and that the piece in question is powered correctly. Most do not attempt to abuse the piece to its fullest, which is why we end up with the Daalas and the CDO's of the world.
jak
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:23:11 AM
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in sets 10 & 11, the designers have encouraged us to try to abuse any SA's or CE's in our play-tests.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:23:17 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Mando wrote:
You may refuse to playtest this piece, but I can assure you that this piece was playtested many times, a couple by myself, and I can assure you there isn't any overpowered squad that will hurt the game. I find it kinda ridiculous that whenever a strong melee piece comes out it gets criticized to this much extent. You guys just need to beleive that these pieces in Vset 10 were playtested extensively and any precieved imbalances were tested. Qui gon is strong, but not overpowered. He helps out the Jedi in the Republic faction a lot. You mentioned earlier that he could get 20 fp in 4 rounds. Sure he can, but no one in all the playtests ever did that because it would be ridiculousness to even think that is the best use of him in a competitive squad. When you are setting aside 1/4 of you competitive to do nothing but gain force points so that you can do 40 dmg with force push every round for 5 rounds after spending 4 rounds getting to that point, you are going to lose every single game you try that in. Qui Gon is a big investment to have in the squad to not use him by replacing his turn using Serenity. In the playtests it was used once maybe twice in a match, and R2 or foul Modama were there to pick him up and bring him up the map to be in the action. This piece was playtested by good players. There was no problem at all with it in its final form which is what has been released in the Vset.


The problem I am coming to find is that most play tests are just used to make sure the mechanics interact as desired and that the piece in question is powered correctly. Most do not attempt to abuse the piece to its fullest, which is why we end up with the Daalas and the CDO's of the world.


At least for the last couple of sets, the designers and I have Shown Examples of Squads we would like to see tested in order to Abuse the pieces. Example being. I remember that Obi-Kin was tested with Qui-gon originally and that was why he was given Rival. Sometimes things do get through, but we generally try to make sure that all possible builds get tested to their full extent. i Myself usually try to break every piece i can in that way.
Mando
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 9:29:41 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Mando wrote:
You may refuse to playtest this piece, but I can assure you that this piece was playtested many times, a couple by myself, and I can assure you there isn't any overpowered squad that will hurt the game. I find it kinda ridiculous that whenever a strong melee piece comes out it gets criticized to this much extent. You guys just need to beleive that these pieces in Vset 10 were playtested extensively and any precieved imbalances were tested. Qui gon is strong, but not overpowered. He helps out the Jedi in the Republic faction a lot. You mentioned earlier that he could get 20 fp in 4 rounds. Sure he can, but no one in all the playtests ever did that because it would be ridiculousness to even think that is the best use of him in a competitive squad. When you are setting aside 1/4 of you competitive to do nothing but gain force points so that you can do 40 dmg with force push every round for 5 rounds after spending 4 rounds getting to that point, you are going to lose every single game you try that in. Qui Gon is a big investment to have in the squad to not use him by replacing his turn using Serenity. In the playtests it was used once maybe twice in a match, and R2 or foul Modama were there to pick him up and bring him up the map to be in the action. This piece was playtested by good players. There was no problem at all with it in its final form which is what has been released in the Vset.


The problem I am coming to find is that most play tests are just used to make sure the mechanics interact as desired and that the piece in question is powered correctly. Most do not attempt to abuse the piece to its fullest, which is why we end up with the Daalas and the CDO's of the world.


A lot of the problem pieces that have had to be banned or errata'd or are being currently looked at never recieved a lot of playtests due to low population of playtesters. Vset 10 had a lot of playtesting done, and therefore the quality of the set is good. Whenever I playtest I try to make the most competitive squads I can out of the pieces I am playtesting. I think generally most people do also. I encourage as many people as possible to help out with playtesting. We had a lot of playtesters for Vset 10 and currently we are playtesting Vset 11. People who are complaining now about stuff coming out know full well that they can help out by playtesting, and if they don't choose to help out at all, then that tells you something about them.
donnyrides
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 11:12:34 AM
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Darth Desolous!!! Hope this come with some Uta love! Can't wait. If you can't spoil the stats, can you spoil the recommended figure to use for it?
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, June 15, 2015 11:14:13 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
The problem I am coming to find is that most play tests are just used to make sure the mechanics interact as desired and that the piece in question is powered correctly. Most do not attempt to abuse the piece to its fullest, which is why we end up with the Daalas and the CDO's of the world.


I think it's a lot easier to test a piece like this though - his synergies are relatively obvious (use a movement breaker so he gets to use Serenity, play with other Jedi to use his Commander Effect). It's always the stuff around non-uniques, who are subject to boat loads of CEs, that slips through as they're much harder to test. Like Dr Daman's Daala squad with obscure stuff like Raxus, the Repulsor Sled, Needa, et al - very hard to expect someone to find something that intricate in playtesting.
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