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Ideas to Fix Melee Options
obiwan1knight
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:13:31 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
To add something to the pool, I would like to see a force power that specifically targets one CE and disrupts just that one CE. I picture that being how battle meditation word work. One Jedi attempting to take one commander out of the fight.


This sounds like a really good idea.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:14:17 AM
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Eeth Koth, Jedi Guardian

cost 22
Republic

Hp 90
D 18
att 11
dmg 20

Unique
Melee
Double
Shien Style
Guardian (adjacent characters with a force rating and a lightsaber gain shien style)

Force 4
Force Repulse 2
Force push 2

This may need some work, the guardian aspect is to emulate Eeth Koth deflecting the bolts and the simplest method i could think of is to grant it to adjacents but the intention isn't to have the recipient able to use their force to reroll. Think of it as a jedi energy shield, you attack anyone in the vascinity and Koth deflects (or attempts to).
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:17:35 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
Eeth Koth, Jedi Guardian

cost 22
Republic

Hp 90
D 18
att 11
dmg 20

Unique
Melee
Double
Shien Style
Guardian (adjacent characters with a force rating and a lightsaber gain shien style)

Force 4
Force Repulse 2
Force push 2

This may need some work, the guardian aspect is to emulate Eeth Koth deflecting the bolts and the simplest method i could think of is to grant it to adjacents but the intention isn't to have the recipient able to use their force to reroll. Think of it as a jedi energy shield, you attack anyone in the vascinity and Koth deflects (or attempts to).


I think this is a good idea, and the best way is to just spell it out:

Guardian (When an adjacent character with a Force rating and a Lightsaber is hit by a nonmelee attack, they take no damage, save 11 [add other stuff about the attacker taking damage if you want to])

It's longer, but it fits your intent better. Koth can spend HIS points to re-roll it, but the character he is guarding cannot.

The fact that he's just 22 points is key. Again it just reminds me of Exile of Onderon; she lets nearby Jedi deflect shots for free. But she's 39 points. That's a world of difference.
CorellianComedian
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:24:02 AM
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"Small steps" may not be the best way to go, but it would be deadly to go to far in the other direction.

When I first started playing SWM, we ignored faction restrictions out of necessity: if we hadn't, my squads especially would have been something like 2 good Rebel pieces, 2 better-than average Rebel pieces, my good fringe piece, the rest of my Rebel grunts, and a few fringe fillers. Each battle still ended up with Darth Bane laughing while storming my horde of weak and ill-supported grunts with breathtaking ease (the Jensaarai Defender made several noble attempts to defeat Bane, but all he usually succeeded in doing was buying Rieekan a turn to get further away).

Now of course, these squads dreamed of one day becoming Tier 7 or 8, so they're not the best example, but my point is that we shouldn't boost Melee TOO quickly. Utterly impervious melee squads would turn tournaments into cantina brawls, with everyone scrambling to build the best rock squad. This would be fun for a while, but it would send shooter squads out the window.

There have been a lot of good ideas thrown around, so maybe this has come up already, but would it be enough just to make several Melee Scare squads? As in, pieces (like Obi-kin) that mop the floor with shooters, but aren't as cost-effective at Melee. Similar premise to the the Gormak Bomb Disposal Expert. Who's going to mainline him? Nobody. But his mere existence as a Lobot reinforcement may keep Self-Destruct from being as prevalent.

Maybe the Jensaarai Saraai-Kaar could be made, with rapport 15-20 for Jensaarai Defenders and giving them Shien and Renewal 1 via CE?

Melee boosts in general could be weird thematically if they are too broad, and simply making upcoming melee pieces cheaper would make old and otherwise-solid melee pieces obsolete.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the issue. I'm no master at SWM, so maybe everything I just cautioned against would work beautifully BigGrin, but I think the best way to go would be to make certain types of melee playable, so that shooter squads need to adapt to deal with them, and in adapting let other types of melee become playable.

For instance, look at a Neo-Crusader squad. Let's say, in order to deal with the potential of an Obi-kin all-melee squad, they bring a couple of melee pieces with parry instead of another attacker. Now, they've adjusted to better deal with ranged defense abilities, but those melee pieces are dead weight against another shooter-oriented squad, meaning there's also less firepower to keep less anti-shooter-intense melee squads from closing the distance safely.

If that makes any sense LOL

P.S. I like the Eeth Koth, fingersandteeth.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:30:55 AM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
"Small steps" may not be the best way to go, but it would be deadly to go to far in the other direction.

When I first started playing SWM, we ignored faction restrictions out of necessity: if we hadn't, my squads especially would have been something like 2 good Rebel pieces, 2 better-than average Rebel pieces, my good fringe piece, the rest of my Rebel grunts, and a few fringe fillers. Each battle still ended up with Darth Bane laughing while storming my horde of weak and ill-supported grunts with breathtaking ease (the Jensaarai Defender made several noble attempts to defeat Bane, but all he usually succeeded in doing was buying Rieekan a turn to get further away).

Now of course, these squads dreamed of one day becoming Tier 7 or 8, so they're not the best example, but my point is that we shouldn't boost Melee TOO quickly. Utterly impervious melee squads would turn tournaments into cantina brawls, with everyone scrambling to build the best rock squad. This would be fun for a while, but it would send shooter squads out the window.

There have been a lot of good ideas thrown around, so maybe this has come up already, but would it be enough just to make several Melee Scare squads? As in, pieces (like Obi-kin) that mop the floor with shooters, but aren't as cost-effective at Melee. Similar premise to the the Gormak Bomb Disposal Expert. Who's going to mainline him? Nobody. But his mere existence as a Lobot reinforcement may keep Self-Destruct from being as prevalent.

Maybe the Jensaarai Saraai-Kaar could be made, with rapport 15-20 for Jensaarai Defenders and giving them Shien and Renewal 1 via CE?

Melee boosts in general could be weird thematically if they are too broad, and simply making upcoming melee pieces cheaper would make old and otherwise-solid melee pieces obsolete.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the issue. I'm no master at SWM, so maybe everything I just cautioned against would work beautifully BigGrin, but I think the best way to go would be to make certain types of melee playable, so that shooter squads need to adapt to deal with them, and in adapting let other types of melee become playable.

For instance, look at a Neo-Crusader squad. Let's say, in order to deal with the potential of an Obi-kin all-melee squad, they bring a couple of melee pieces with parry instead of another attacker. Now, they've adjusted to better deal with ranged defense abilities, but those melee pieces are dead weight against another shooter-oriented squad, meaning there's also less firepower to keep less anti-shooter-intense melee squads from closing the distance safely.

If that makes any sense LOL

P.S. I like the Eeth Koth, fingersandteeth.


I think you hit the nail on the head with a number of your points.

I really don't want shooters to be completely removed from the game. I personally like balanced squads the best, with both shooters and melee, but after that I prefer all shooters over all melee. When people like me express disagreement with the "small steps" approach, it isn't in favor of massive leaps. There is a moderate answer available, too.

You're right about just a few "Melee Scare" pieces possibly being an answer, and you're right that that is exactly what ObiKin is (and the Gormak also). The existence of counters is often all that is needed for the thing they are countering to get played less.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:32:11 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
obiwan1knight wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
To add something to the pool, I would like to see a force power that specifically targets one CE and disrupts just that one CE. I picture that being how battle meditation word work. One Jedi attempting to take one commander out of the fight.


This sounds like a really good idea.


BigGrin
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 10:34:11 AM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
these squads dreamed of one day becoming Tier 7 or 8, so they're not the best example,


LOL!
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:10:35 AM
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ever wonder why there is no melee dash equivalent in anything other than the NR?


Hero of Tython, jedi knight
OR
cost 27
HP 100
D18
Att 10
dmg 20

unique
Melee
Twin
Evade
Duelist

Force 3
LS Assault
LS throw
atmsalad
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:20:29 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
ever wonder why there is no melee dash equivalent in anything other than the NR?


Hero of Tython, jedi knight
OR
cost 27
HP 100
D18
Att 10
dmg 20

unique
Melee
Twin
Evade
Duelist

Force 3
LS Assault
LS throw
yeeeeaaaaasssss! What about greater mobile?
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:26:13 AM
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Joined: 4/2/2008
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Location: Chicago
i figured the throw and assault was enough, for the points. The LS throw 2 gives this piece 4 attacks from 6 squares, so with 6 squares of movement that's a 12 square reach on a more durable frame so i left off GMA.

These are just ideas. I felt obliged to add some seeing as I threw in a rant earlier without much constructive meat involved so these are some of the things that I've though about in the past.

SHooters for cost tend to do a lot of damage. Melee tend to have HP to counter this but for some reason their power output is held in check. I'm assuming that's because they have more HP and Def but if that only counteracts the effects of having to be adjacent there is no reason why they shouldn't have equivalent power output when adjacent.

I'm assuming that might have originally been rolled into AoOs but still, its clear that currently the balance is off.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:27:52 AM
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Force Ghosts for the OR are surprisingly absent but the risk is giving Bastilla more force for ABM.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:43:58 AM
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Posts: 8,428
fingersandteeth wrote:
Force Ghosts for the OR are surprisingly absent but the risk is giving Bastilla more force for ABM.


Only if they are force batteries like Exar or Yoda. Plain Renewal like Obi-Wan doesn't give her more Force.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:48:13 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
Force Ghosts for the OR are surprisingly absent but the risk is giving Bastilla more force for ABM.


Only if they are force batteries like Exar or Yoda. Plain Renewal like Obi-Wan doesn't give her more Force.


Boo-ya!

Do it!
Kamikaze13
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:02:42 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 530
Jolee Bindo, Old Coot
fringe
20 pts
HP 90
Def 21
Atk 12
Dmg 20

Special Abilities
Unique; Melee Attack
Double Attack
Shien Style Mastery
Suppressive Force (Enemies without a force rating get -4 to saves against this character's Force Powers)

Force Powers
Force 2; Force renewal 2
Advanced Force Valor (Force 2, replaces Attack: Until the start of this character's next turn, this character gains the following Force ability: Allies with a force rating get +10 Damage, +4 Attack, +4 Defense and +2 Speed)
Stasis Field (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 12; Target and each enemy within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11)
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:07:29 PM
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Location: Chicago
Master Orgus Din Force ghost
OR
12
hp -
def -
att -
dmg -

unique
light spirit - same old, FR1 and mettle
ghostly influence - at the start of the skirmish, choose one ally with melee attack and a lightsaber, that character gains shien or djem so.

CE
Unique followers with a force rating and melee attack gain speed 8 when within 6 squares of this character
jen'ari
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:14:51 PM
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Posts: 2,098
billiv15 wrote:

Because that's a clear example of letting things go and moving on...


I did move on Bill. The problem is not a me vs you problem right nowits a "your attitude in general problem" I feel that you think you are superior. That because you are a great SWM player that you have the right to say unproven things and people should take them seriously, even while it is belittling or refuting someone else's logically laid out claim. I think that if an idea is not yours you try and find a way to discredit it and than bring it back to yourself. Something I find very annoying. I think I will try and explain by showing you some examples. I am just trying to show you that, to me, (I cant talk for others, but I am pretty sure others feel similar, we are all human afterall) you are a tad egotistical.


Here are some examples:

"I'd even welcome people to post some individual characters as well."

You would welcome them? what? thanks for your permission master.

"Any other ideas people have? I can't be the only one here."

What were the fifteen other ideas presented? worthless? Puts you above others

"If it costs more than 25 points Tim, it's not much of a fix."

umm... lots of people had some good ideas that cost more than 25. it would be a good fix.

"This is a great idea, and similar to one I had."

haha this one is obvious. Great idea, I had that idea as well. haha

Hutts wrote
I even just wonder about War Throat on a medium cost, hard to kill Jedi. Momaw's a great piece, but he can die pretty fast to stuff like Sniper/Spotter or a strafer, especially without a good movement breaker.

I still think shooter defense is only part of the problem, and swarms are also problematic."


You responded with this
"We looked at this. The issue is Force Burst (2 FPs, and 10 damage to all figures within 6) and the rules of Repulse being limited by both range and damage.

It was basically impossible to make a fair and inline version. We ended up making Force Burst 4 on the Jedi Lords for the OR in set 9, to scale correctly with Burst.

In general though, I agree with the idea of more Force Burst being used. It simply hasn't been put on a cheap jedi (15-17) points. I'd be for that."


Huh? so you agree with Hutts? than what is the discourse for? I feel it is just to put yourself above everyone

You wrote this to me after I suggested sub factions as ways to limit boostso they do not get out to everyone else and are contained.

"ol, I'm well aware of how sub factions work. We expanded the crap out of them in the V-sets for that reason. Heck, I even made the Army of Light sub faction pieces...


Now, there's nothing wrong with sub factions, but that's not what we are after here primarily.

........ you created a list of 3 problems.

So think broader, wider. "

What are we after exactly? Have we all decided we are here to fix the three problems that YOU determined? hahaha, it comes off as very arrogant. Think broader, wider? heck no, think smaller, more simple is what is needed. If you can get 3 or 4 sub factions that are very good against non-melee that can also be good against melee than it will surely alter the meta.

You said this
"You could go a number of ways. But you also do have to stay within the world to some degree."

Can you not see the superior attitude in this?


Anyway, sorry all or the rant, I think this discussion is awesome and I am with Lou in that I believe the designers have "heard the message" and are going to work hard to bring melee pieces back into competitive play
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:46:25 PM
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TheHutts wrote:

I even just wonder about War Throat on a medium cost, hard to kill Jedi. Momaw's a great piece, but he can die pretty fast to stuff like Sniper/Spotter or a strafer, especially without a good movement breaker.

I still think shooter defense is only part of the problem, and swarms are also problematic.


Agreed.

Stay tuned for vset 10. You'll have another tool in your arsenal.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:47:51 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
TheHutts wrote:

I even just wonder about War Throat on a medium cost, hard to kill Jedi. Momaw's a great piece, but he can die pretty fast to stuff like Sniper/Spotter or a strafer, especially without a good movement breaker.

I still think shooter defense is only part of the problem, and swarms are also problematic.


Agreed.

Stay tuned for vset 10. You'll have another tool in your arsenal.


I like the piece that I think you're talking about, I just think that Jedi don't always need to have force powers to do area damage - my perspective is probably warped by playing against Dr Daman's Raxus and Pellaeon squad a few times. Hence war throat on a Jedi.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 12:51:59 PM
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Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 522
Location: Chicago
TheHutts wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
TheHutts wrote:

I even just wonder about War Throat on a medium cost, hard to kill Jedi. Momaw's a great piece, but he can die pretty fast to stuff like Sniper/Spotter or a strafer, especially without a good movement breaker.

I still think shooter defense is only part of the problem, and swarms are also problematic.


Agreed.

Stay tuned for vset 10. You'll have another tool in your arsenal.


I like the piece that I think you're talking about, I just think that Jedi don't always need to have force powers to do area damage - my perspective is probably warped by playing against Dr Daman's Raxus and Pellaeon squad a few times. Hence war throat on a Jedi.


redo roronn corrob with warthroat.

job done

roronn corobb, jedi knight

republic

cost 28
110
d 18
att 8
dmg 10

unique
melee
double
momentum
war throat

force 3
assault
ls defence
kezzamachine
Posted: Thursday, May 7, 2015 2:57:32 PM
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Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 9/23/2008
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Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
Ooo! A Wookie Bodyguard. A sub-20pt piece that you could Lobotify, with some beefy HP and a decent attack, buuuut instead of Bodyguard, give him a bodyguard-type ability that works specifically for Direct Damage (so when a character takes damage but not from an attack roll!).

That would answer things like Blast Bugs and Rigged Detonators and you might see more Jedi as a small byproduct...?
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