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Does overwhelming force prevent the switching of targets by decoy?
I assume yes, because I consider it redirecting, but I've been wrong before.
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From the FAQ:
Q: Overwhelming Force refers to preventing attacks, but then doesn't list any powers that actually prevent attacks. It also mentions that Bodyguard can't be used because you "cannot force this character to attack a different target." But Bodyguard doesn't force a character to attack a different target, does it?
A: Dealing damage is part of the attack procedure, and sometimes the precise distinction between the two isn't handled as carefully as it could be. The wording is intended to be read as "...attacks (or damage from attacks) cannot be prevented or redirected this turn..." and "...Draw Fire or Bodyguard cannot force this character to attack (or damage) a different character."
Basically Overwhelming Force means when it is used the attack cannot be prevented (Pheromones), the enemy who is attacked cannot be changed (Draw Fire), and the damage dealt cannot be reduced (Evade, Shields) nor dealt to a different character (Bodyguard, Molecular Shields).
So that would be Correct.
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I figured as much, i was just wondering which way the consensus went.
Thanks Dude.
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I would consider decoy similar to either draw fire or bombad gungan so I would think that you are correct.
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You cannot use Decoy abilities against attacks that have Overwhelming Force.
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Just my 2 cents, but this seems wrong. Targeting happens at Step 2 before an Attack is declared. As at this stage you do not know if the Attacker is using it's Overwhelming Force ability, so how do you know if you can use an alternate targeting defensive ability such as Draw Fire? What if at Step 5 the attacker now decides to not use Overwhelming force? Do you skip back to step 2? Link to resolving effects http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10805
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Except that you can't wait to decide to use Overwhelming Force. You use things like Overwhelming Force and Sith Rage before you even declare a target.
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According to the GM Sarli FAQ Force Powers such as Sith Rage are declared immediately upon declaring an attack. Targeting come before this step and he explicitly states you cannot declare Force Powers earlier. This is what I have always used. You wouldn't spend a FP immediately, otherwise you could be spending a Force point despite wanting to use another power on the target. Q: Can I spend Force points for a power such as Use the Force or Sith Rage earlier in the turn before actually making an attack? The wording doesn't say I have to spend the Force point immediately prior to the attack the way that Lightsaber Precision does, and it could be important when dealing with abilities such as Ysalamiri. A: You must spend the Force point immediately upon declaring an attack, an ability that replaces attacks, or movement. You cannot spend points early and have the power "stored" for later use. http://www.gmsarligames.com/swmfaq/SWMFAQ20060628.pdf
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Declaring an attack doesn't mean making the attack - you must declare the attack prior to choosing a target otherwise what are you choosing a target for? You declare your attack at which point you can apply any bonuses such as Force Powers or Special abilities like Deadeye, THEN choose the target of the declared attack and then make the attack roll.
They are a string of events that must all come in succession hence the inability to store the power for later.
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ugavine wrote:According to the GM Sarli FAQ Force Powers such as Sith Rage are declared immediately upon declaring an attack. Targeting come before this step and he explicitly states you cannot declare Force Powers earlier. This is what I have always used. With all due respect, that is a bit obsolete. That came out a LONG time before the resolving effects list. And it isn't updated for when Overwhelming Force came out. From the proper, WOTC FAQ: Q: Overwhelming Force refers to preventing attacks, but then doesn't list any powers that actually prevent attacks. It also mentions that Bodyguard can't be used because you "cannot force this character to attack a different target." But Bodyguard doesn't force a character to attack a different target, does it? A: Dealing damage is part of the attack procedure, and sometimes the precise distinction between the two isn't handled as carefully as it could be. The wording is intended to be read as "...attacks (or damage from attacks) cannot be prevented or redirected this turn..." and "...Draw Fire or Bodyguard cannot force this character to attack (or damage) a different character." Basically Overwhelming Force means when it is used the attack cannot be prevented (Pheromones), the enemy who is attacked cannot be changed (Draw Fire), and the damage dealt cannot be reduced (Evade, Shields) nor dealt to a different character (Bodyguard, Molecular Shields).
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Lord_Ball wrote:Declaring an attack doesn't mean making the attack - you must declare the attack prior to choosing a target otherwise what are you choosing a target for? You declare your attack at which point you can apply any bonuses such as Force Powers or Special abilities like Deadeye, THEN choose the target of the declared attack and then make the attack roll.
They are a string of events that must all come in succession hence the inability to store the power for later. I'm just finding different guidance contradictory. And you can target for other abilities such as the Targeting Special Ability, not just for attacks. The guide here on Bloomilk http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10805 has declaring a Target at Step 2 and declaring attack at Step 5. If this is not correct, that's fine. But is there another link that shows the correct order of events?
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BTW, I'm not arguing the ruling I just want referance to the correct sequence of events as they make no sense to me at present.
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ugavine wrote:Lord_Ball wrote:Declaring an attack doesn't mean making the attack - you must declare the attack prior to choosing a target otherwise what are you choosing a target for? You declare your attack at which point you can apply any bonuses such as Force Powers or Special abilities like Deadeye, THEN choose the target of the declared attack and then make the attack roll.
They are a string of events that must all come in succession hence the inability to store the power for later. I'm just finding different guidance contradictory. And you can target for other abilities such as the Targeting Special Ability, not just for attacks. The guide here on Bloomilk http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10805 has declaring a Target at Step 2 and declaring attack at Step 5. If this is not correct, that's fine. But is there another link that shows the correct order of events? Yes you can target for other things than attacks, but again you must declare the ability being used before you target same as with an attack you can't just pick a target first then choose why they are the target - the why you need to choose a target must come first, in the case of attacks that is declaring you attack (i.e. "I'm going to attack"). At that point you also need to spend you FP or declare Special abilities that require declaration (like Overwhelming Force/Careful Shot [which can also be declared immediately before the attack roll], etc.) then you choose the target. Keep in mind that some language is interchangeable in the link post the declaring attack refers to stating that you are making your attack roll, where as GM Sarli likely refers to it as you state that you are going to take your attack action.
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I do understand what you are saying, but can't you see that the Bloomilk guidance contradicts that?
What you are saying is that you Target and declare the attack & force power simultainiously. Is that right?
Do you have a link to how the sequence of events should be because I'm struggleing to find one.
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I added to my reply, but just for convenience I'll reiterate it here. Language used in both GM Sarli and the Bloo Milk links you posted are not precise* (precise in this context means that to me they refer to different things even though they use the same language). The updated FAQ for Overwhelming Force explicitely states that "the enemy who is attacked cannot be changed" that means once the target is chosen it cannot be swapped via decoy. By that even if you play by the specific language of the bloo milk guide - you are required to swap the original target back in for the decoy.
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Just going to mention that the Resolving Effects list posted on this site is taken verbatim from the official FAQ.
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Okay. But you can see where my confusion comes from. :)
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YES! I had the same confusion for a long time. The problem is that before you even get to Step 1 of that sequence, you have already declared that you are making an Attack. The key is the bold part at the very begining:
Here is the sequence of what happens during an attack, step by step.
So the whole thing, including Step 1, is "an attack". If I'm wrong in my logic SB will correct it.
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juice man wrote:YES! I had the same confusion for a long time. The problem is that before you even get to Step 1 of that sequence, you have already declared that you are making an Attack. The key is the bold part at the very begining:
Here is the sequence of what happens during an attack, step by step.
So the whole thing, including Step 1, is "an attack". If I'm wrong in my logic SB will correct it. Seems like there is an implicit Step 0: 0. Declare that you are making an attack or using a non-attack ability.
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Rank: Knobby White Spider
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juice man wrote:YES! I had the same confusion for a long time. The problem is that before you even get to Step 1 of that sequence, you have already declared that you are making an Attack. The key is the bold part at the very begining:
Here is the sequence of what happens during an attack, step by step.
So the whole thing, including Step 1, is "an attack". If I'm wrong in my logic SB will correct it. Yes, that's pretty much what I was missing. Amazing that I've been playing this game from the start and are still confused over rules 
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