Sithborg Offline


Says the exact same thing.


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That wording is fine with me.

Are you suggesting it as a CE or a SA, Scott?

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PT?


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CE - enemies with 20 hp or less?

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+1


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Yes, it should be "20 hp or less remaining."

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:08 am
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test run, take a look at the edits



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I like it. Thanks Dave.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:03 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
I like it. Thanks Dave.


I wanted to make sure those changes were OK (2nd part of CE in particular).

So ready for PT then?


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:27 pm
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I think it's ready for PT, but this one is Les' design so I think it would be best to check with him first.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:05 pm
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It looks good to me.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:37 am
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thereisnotry wrote:
I think it's ready for PT, but this one is Les' design so I think it would be best to check with him first.


Thanks guys, Les had already called PT, so I'll get it added.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:22 pm
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Yeah looks fine

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:38 am
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cool, added


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:39 pm
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FT added:

"I smell fear, and it smells good."

lol


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:40 pm
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Looking at this and here is a squad that looks good
Trench
Commando Droid Officer
Commando Droid SGT
Commando Droid x5
Gha Nackt
BDO
Lobot
R7

Lobot reiforcments IG 86 and MD x2

5 x double twin accurate but they are only shooting at 15s i think.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:02 pm
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Just seen the squads int eh Commando Driod SGT thread.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:35 pm
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15/45 Admiral Trench 35 pts
Separatist

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Merciless 10 [+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

Remorseless Programming [Separatist Droid allies gain Merciless 10]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Programming [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]


Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares may ignore cover when attacking.

Separatist Droid followers get +3 Attack against enemies with 20 Hit Points or less remaining.

"I smell fear, and it smells good."

NOTE: I sent this in BM, but was informed I should probably send it here, so I did, my apologies if that is wrong. ALSO: I have since played another game with Trench (that'll probably not have a report made of it, for a reason I shall now explain:), and during that game, Matt Spry (the opponent) told me that he didn't think the 'ignores cover' part worked like I thought; he thought it just meant for TARGETING purposes. When we looked at LST5 wording, however, I think that it DOES ignore the bonus, but once I got to reading closely, I'm thinking ONLY the bonus, and not for targeting purposes... If THAT is the case, then the below test will still have some useful info, but keep in mind that it was played incorrectly at times. Also, there will be a note at the bottom, for after you've read the playtest report, because it may have some info that won't make sense until you've read what I have to say lol.

Anyway, without further ado:

Finished my first playtest!. Here's a report :). I express some particular views here, so I hope you'll bear with my long-winded descriptions and take some time to consider the points I think might be issues. I am hoping that my playtests have a positive impact on the pieces I am able to test, so I've taken time to write down my very detailed opinions to help out as much as possible.



(2) List the map
Opponent won map roll, chose Spynet HQ (Bothan Spynet)

(3) Be sure it is a 60 minute timed game
Check.

(4) List the VSET 8 mini(s) used
Admiral Trench (me), Shoaneb Culu, Jedi Knight (opponent)

(5) List the # of activations
11 (but I had San Hill for act. Control)

(6) List the total point cost
Sidious, Trench, B3 UBD, IG Lancer, T1 SBLD, BDS, San, BDO, Mouse x2, Uggie, 199

(7) List Reinforcements/Reserves if any are used
n/a

(8) Answer:
(a) How did the characters abilities interact with each other?


(b) Did you understand how the SA/CE interactions work after reading them just once?
Yep, I think; see below.

(c) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place and/or missing?
I think the new abilities on Trench are cool. Some more useful than others. The only thing I need to clear up: Does ignoring cover mean it ignores the +4 Defense penalty as well?

(d) Does the mini(s) work?
Well, I think so; sorta. I assume he is meant to cut off the Seps reliance on Fringe Droids (looking at the IG-86 which might as well be Seps, and is stronger than most Sep Droids), and hopefully make some Separatist Droid squads COMPETETIVE WITHOUT the Lancer…

I’m going to do some more testing at 200 with him to see, but after initially checking with Bronson (theUltraStar) for ideas to build with him, he said that Trench was disappointing, and I should send him back for a re-build and ask for a new set of stats. I agreed with his view; I like some of the ideas, but for more than 1/6 of my squad, it’s hard to effectively build around. Now, I went ahead and tested him in a game as it was already scheduled. What I found out was kinda interesting, but I’m still not sure about the piece. As far as WORKING, I think it’s fine, but at 200 points, he doesn’t look effective enough. Now, in THREE-hundred, I can see myself making an effective squad with him fairly easily (but then, at 300 there is a lot more my opponent can do as well).

(e) Is the cost accurate?
Not enough data to effectively answer this. As I mentioned above, at 300 he could be devastating, but as intended for 200 point tourneys, he seems like ANOTHER disappointing Separatist boost. If we really want Sep Droids besides IG Lancers (which, there is one in my squad, but it wasn’t put there as the piece the squad RELIED on, but rather a fodder clearer, an afterthought, in fact, as Trench does little to nothing for it) to be competitive, he needs a more aggressive cost.

Daala and Bastila are great examples of POWERFUL, aggressively costed pieces that were intended for a certain purpose. For Bastila, she is given the load of making the OR playable for the first several V-sets, and did it well. Some think TOO well for the cost, but regardless, she worked fine I think. Admiral Daala, who of course just got nerfed but is still extremely powerful in the right squad, was meant to cut-off the reliance on Thrawn in the Imperials. She did it, also, almost too well. Trench just doesn’t look like he is costed low enough to make any impact on today’s meta.

For 35 points, Ruthless is helpful SOMETIMES, and Merciless is situational. Ignoring cover is, again, nice, but only helps Droids that wouldn’t normally be played anyway in a competitive game, and 35 points is a lot to pay for that. Basically, the piece doesn’t really serve it’s purpose as well as it could, as in, I’m not going to put down my Lancer(s)+Bombs to play other Droids just because of this piece, due to it’s cost, in a 200 point game or a tourney.

(f) Any suggestions for it/them?
I would like a lower cost, as I’ve mentioned, if he is to see any competitive play, or have any impact on the way Separatist Droid squads are built. The piece fits the character pretty well, so that is nice. I think everything here has potential, if I could build around Trench easier. Love the idea of making SEPARATIST Droid shooters useful, execution could have been a BIT better in mine (and theUltraStar’s) opinion.

(g) Analysis/Description of the game – Detailed accounting of the game
Ok, so after I’ve given you a long winded description of how he LOOKS, how did he REALLY play?

So, after the opponent picked the map, I started on the right. He was playing Old Republic, and meditated on the first round carelessly, not realizing it gave me time for a Lancer strike before he could setup his Twin Riposte to block my Lancer. He also had setup carelessly too close to the middle, and he also set Bastila up in an area where I could strafe her (!!!!. Turns out, he didn’t know that she would be turned off if I damaged her, or she rolled a save, and I JUST so happened to get the ONLY 20 I rolled on my attack on her, so Ruthless ended up being nice here, but not necessarily key, as she would have been turned off either way on a 5 or better, either by damage or making the save).

The opponent left me JUST enough room to go by without having to risk the Riposte, wipe out ALL of his fodder and land safely. However, since most of what I killed was Reinforcements, this left me in bad shape, as with an hour time limit, I was down 31 to 23 (as, of course, the Lancer then died). He stalled well, but as he was moving out to control gambit just in case, I was able to get a kill with my B3 on Bastila and his R7 in literally the LAST minute of the game, thus winning. Merciless ended up helping me secure a bigger lead with the damage dealt to Bastila.

So, basically this game was THE ideal match for Trench; Ruthless came into play, Merciless came into play once, ignoring cover gave me the opportunity to pick whatever target I had the best chance at eliminating with my B3 at the last minute to pull out the win.

That said, I credit the win to my opponent’s (many) mistakes, and I honestly was also proud of how I manipulated the Heavy Lift on the T1 and Pawn of Sidious to get the MOST out of my B3’s attacks, every time. Did Trench make a difference? Yes, but I think against most players, or different squads, he wouldn’t have helped enough.

We went on to finish (of course, this is irrelevant to the report in a way, as the hour was up, but we wanted to go ahead and finish for fun out of curiosity, but it still contains useful information, because generally you will get through more than 2 and ¼ rounds in an hour, but the opponent was moving very slowly, and the game in general, for some reason). After the hour, play moved faster and we finished in about 30 more minutes. After I killed Bastila and his door control, I just blocked off Farfalla and Vodo with the Mice and cleaned up with Pawning the B3 and it’s own turns (ignoring the cover from the Mouse in front, and shooting whomever I pleased as long as they didn’t go around a wall like Farfalla did). Also got a big hit off with the T1, and the Officer rolled a crit. Trench ended up making about as much difference as in the early part of the game, maybe a bit more. The opponent conceded when his last two pieces got down to about 30 HP each.

This concludes the battle report and summary of my very first playtest. I hope it is helpful, and I would appreciate if you take time to look into my views on Trench.

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to test pieces and influence the future of the game in anyway possible (hopefully I can make a positive difference!).

~Jonathan Cavallini (pego)

ADDED NOTE: If Trench's CE indeed only does 1 of the 2 things (ignores the +4 OR basically grants Accurate), then I now agree with Bronson's assessment that he should be taken back for redesigning, as he has no use whatsoever in competitive games, or games below 300 points (reasonably. I mean, he MIGHT work with BX or BDS/other things that already have Accurate, but as Bronson pointed out in a different conversation, the BX Sniper doesn't MISS, so it doesn't matter, and the BDS isn't really worth playing anyway. PLUS, at 35 points, you can't really fit enough to make him REMOTELY worth it at all).

I respectfully request a new piece to test (even if this report wouldn't count as I played it wrong, apparently), and that this have another look taken for (hopefully) some (major) tweaks; as a HUGE Seps player, I would hate to see this come out as is, as it would be another disappointing piece that had potential, but is simply not playable. There's nothing WORTH building around him with. Also, EVERYONE else who has seen this piece has agreed that it is (in their words) a turd, or sucks, is useless, etc.. This includes other playtesters and Matt Spry.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:46 pm
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Ummm.. not really sure what to think of this playtest. He might be right that he does cost a bit too much, but I am not sure would lower him too much maybe to 32.

will PM mike and have this guy playtest him again at a lower point cost. 32 and 29.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:10 pm
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Yeah, and be sure to mention that the CE ignores the effects of cover for targeting. He essentially grants Accurate Shot to Seperatist Droids, that gets around Cloak and Superstealth.

And could someone please mention that they are always able to contact me for rules questions for playtesting.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:50 pm
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Sithborg wrote:
Yeah, and be sure to mention that the CE ignores the effects of cover for targeting. He essentially grants Accurate Shot to Seperatist Droids, that gets around Cloak and Superstealth.

And could someone please mention that they are always able to contact me for rules questions for playtesting.

AKA, super-Accurate.

I'm available for rules questions as well, whenever needed.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:09 pm
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What if we slightly altered the 2nd part of his CE?

Quote:
Separatist Droid followers get +3 Attack against wounded enemieswith 20 Hit Points or less remaining.


It still fits the flavor, but it gives him more usefulness.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:36 am
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That could work. If we need to go this route should it be a special ability that is granted rather then a straight attack bump?

Hit 'em while their down [Separatist Droid followers get +3 Attack against wounded enemies]

Just throwing this out there. I am leaning on teh side of lowering cost might help. I will tinker around and see what I can come up with.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:57 pm
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Yes, I think it needs both: this change to the CE, and also lowering the cost.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:49 am
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No Quarter [Separatist Droid followers get +3 Attack against wounded enemies]


A victor gives no quarter when the victor shows no clemency or mercy and refuses to spare the life in return for the surrender at discretion (unconditional surrender) of a vanquished opponent

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:53 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
No Quarter [Separatist Droid followers get +3 Attack against wounded enemies]


A victor gives no quarter when the victor shows no clemency or mercy and refuses to spare the life in return for the surrender at discretion (unconditional surrender) of a vanquished opponent


Les, is this to meant to be an SA on Trench? (therefore, as is)

or granted via CE as in:

Separatist Droid followers gain No Quarter [+3 Attack against wounded enemies]

I think I might favor it worded as a standalone ability that can be reused on single characters. Guessing you don't want it disrupted based on how you worded it.

Thoughts?


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:17 am
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swinefeld wrote:
granted via CE as in:

Separatist Droid followers gain No Quarter [+3 Attack against wounded enemies]



This please

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:28 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
granted via CE as in:

Separatist Droid followers gain No Quarter [+3 Attack against wounded enemies]



This please

Cool, any cost reduction?
Also, a suggestion for the card:
Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 35 pts
Separatist

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Merciless 10 [+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

No Quarter [+3 Attack against wounded enemies]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless and Merciless 10]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]


Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares may ignore cover when attacking.

Separatist Droid followers gain No Quarter.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."


Combined the 2 programming SAs into Ruthless Leader. Makes it cleaner and easy to reuse.

Trench may as well have No Quarter, and he could use the boost if he has to get into the fight at some point. Also, reading his WP entry it seems he survived the destruction of 2 different ships he commanded. Maybe a higher Def, or Avoid Defeat? Just some thoughts on making him a bit better but still in flavor.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:00 pm
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I think the Ruthless Leader needs to be part of the CE. I'm not exactly comfortable giving Seps a damage booster that is no range, stackable, and not part of a CE.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:17 pm
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Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 35 pts
Separatist

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Merciless 10 [+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

No Quarter [+3 Attack against wounded enemies]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]


Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares may ignore cover when attacking.

Separatist Droid followers gain No Quarter, Ruthless, and Merciless 10 .


"I smell fear, and it smells good."


Does that work for you Scott? I am fine with it.

swinefeld wrote:
IG-86 are not subject to the CEs, only Sep droids.

Rival with Grievous?

yes that would make alot of sense flavor wise as well.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:01 pm
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thereisnotry wrote:
Ok, well I'm fine with the CE giving a +3 bonus instead (ie, not a SA, so not stackable). The playtest report did say that he wasn't worth using as he was, though. 35pts is too costly for a piece that helps you clear out mice walls. Momaw and lancer/strafe already do that job better (1 activation rather than 2-4+).


The playtest also didn't understand the rules of the CE. In the end, the real question is how much more is his CE worth than Veers? With just the Super Accurate CE, and nothing else on his card, just like Veers, I would put him at 25-28 pts.

Personally, drop the Merciless and Ruthless parts of the CE. Change the No Quarter to a straight up Atk bonus from the CE, and lower the cost.

Admiral Trench
Seperatist
Cost: 31
HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

SA: Unique
Merciless +10 (+10 Dam against enemies with half Hit Points or less)
Tactician +6

CE: Seperatist Droid followers within 6 ignore cover while attacking.

Seperatist Droid allies within 6 gain +3 Atk against wounded enemies.


Tweaked the second CE for a little more fun with some other options out there.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:29 pm
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It's terrible.

Why on earth would you play this guy for 31?

Seps already have a tactician piece that cost too much at 21 to get used and the +3 ATK is pointless. OOM-9 or GGDAC would give you a better bump all the time and only one of those ever gets used.

If you want to make a piece that never gets used, then you are doing a great job.

I would like to see something that is at least level 1.5

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:23 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 28 pts
Separatist

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Merciless 10 [+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

No Quarter [+3 Attack against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with Grevious]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]


Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot

Separatist Droid followers with LOS of a Separatist commander gain No Quarter


"I smell fear, and it smells good."



Trying to compromise and still keep the flavor.
No Quarter is now at half or below. Great idea Dave.
Added Rival which should translate in to whorm and oom9 being played more
Dropped Merciless from ruthless leader
CE change to regular Accurate shot and added the LOS bit to gain no quarter.

Thrawn is 32 as we all know. Master tactician, force bubble, swap, opportunist
Trench 28 Tactician +6, Ruthless leaders (only 5% of all attacks) Accurate and no Quarter w/LOS

I think it is closish. I think Thrawn is still better.

Keeping the CE +3 instead of no quarter is sort of pointless. No one will play sep droids with out GGDAC or OOM9. Then you are already getting the bump so it doesn't do anything because it wouldn't stack. I realize we hav to be careful giving them too much that is why I wanted the LOS bit added in like hand signals for the Clones.

I looked at squads with Rival and the squad will look something like ths. Yes you could do what, but you lose at least 8 BD i think and gain repair that can only be used on the SBDC. There might be something out there with the ADSD and Paply and trench with an over seer, but I didn't take the time to figure it out. You could also drop som BD to put in the BD SGT for roger roger. but I think it would be at least 6 BD.

Trench
Whorm
OOM9
BDO
Super BD Comander
Lobot
Gha Nach
BD x14
Klat Ass.
ugy x2

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:58 pm
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Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 28 pts
Separatist

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique

Merciless 10 [+10 Damage against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

No Quarter [+3 Attack against enemies at half Hit Points or less]

Rival [Cannot be in a squad with Grevious]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:
Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot

Separatist Droid followers with LOS of a Separatist commander gain No Quarter
"I smell fear, and it smells good."


Evil Les
Trench
Whorm
OOM9
BDO
Super BD Comander
Lobot
Gha Nach
BD x14
Klat Ass.
ugy x2

---

R7 MDx6

Good Les
Mira
Revanchist
Bastila
Atton
OR Senetor x2
r7 x2
mdx2

Map - Off World Shipping Center
R1 Positioning

R2
Bastila ADV BM
Mira>Lobot H
Klat Ass.>Mira m
Atton>BD m/h
BD>Mira m
OR Sen. -Mira>MD m/h
OR Sen. -Mira>MD m/h
BD>Mira m
BD>Mira m
---Realized BD Can't earn Gambit points - crap

R3
Mira>MD m/splash save both - hMD Splash BD miss
OR Sen. - Mira>BD Hit
OR Sen. - Mira>BD Hit
BD>R7 m
Klat Ass.>Atton Hit 30 DAM
Revanchist Push BD
BD>Atton hit
Atton> BD h
r7 lock door
BD>mira m
BD>mira m
Bastila ADV BM
BD>mira m
BD>mira m

R4
Revanchist>BD H
Mira>SBDC H/M reroll H
BD bases mira>miss
Atton>BD hit
BD> OR Sen miss
OR Sen. - Atton>BD Hit
OR Sen - Mira>BD h

At this point in time only the commanders and Gha Nact are left.

Battle Droids couldn't hit a blasted thing. While it is a ton of activations none can hit. Couldn't combine fire well becasue I would be shot back at or the OR was standing where only one person could see them unless BD moved and eliminating combine fire.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:37 pm
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Can we add cyborgs are not effected by these effects?

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:39 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
let's try to take a look at what else may be possible before unleashing this

from TJ
squad needs mice, but as a prototype...

FlyingArrow wrote:
Has anyone tested Trench with mass activations?

Trench
Whorm
Muun Colonel
Techno Union Combat Engineer
Poggle
BDO
BDS
14 Muun Guards at +14/60dmg accurate/mobile.

TINT said, "--Low-cost pieces doing heavy damage. I don't care how much you've invested in your commanders, there's no good reason why a 5pt piece should ever be doing 50+dmg without crits."

It's the immobility that keeps mass-act seps in check. Granting mobile/accurate could potentially be worse than Daala and it appears it hasn't even been looked at.



Where was this posted?

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:55 pm
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Don't forget this is the faction with the BX spotters. I could even see trench, grievous, 2 spotters, bdo, bd sergeant, and a crap ton of regular BDs being awesome. With spotters they can do 80 accurate damage (40x2) at +12. I could see a squad just killing all the uggies and door control then wearing down the bigger beats with lots of little shots.

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Last edited by TimmerB123 on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:56 pm
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Wow, really? That's gross. In that case we've gotta drop the Mobile Attack portion of the CE. Thanks for bringing this up.

I don't build many Sep squads, and I wasn't even aware of the Techno Union Combat Engineer. :sigh: I really am getting tired of squads where low-cost grunts pour out as much damage as mid-high-cost beats.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:23 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Don't forget this is the faction with the BX spotters. I could even see trench, grievous, 2 spotters, bdo, bd sergeant, and a crap ton of regular BDs being awesome. With spotters they can do 80 accurate damage (40x2) at +12. I could see a squad just killing all the uggies and door control then wearing down the bigger beats with lots of little shots.


While I didn't have the BX spotters in there, but I did play a bunch of BDs and it didn't do very well. They just can't hit anything.

Here is what I ran
Trench
Whorm
OOM9
BDO
Super BD Comander
Lobot
Gha Nach
BD x14
Klat Ass.
ugy x2

However this was on an older version of trench and they didn't get mobile.

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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:00 pm
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Can we bump his price to 30ish

Acc and mobile is really good

Acc really scares me because our game is already to good for shooters


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:27 am
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I add Droid Army Commander to deal with the Cyborg issue. Or at least I hope it will deal with it.

As for the point cost I am not really sure we need to go back and discuss this again. We had a pretty good discussion about it at the beginning of the month after few play test. If we raise the cost, I would propose adding Master Tactician to his abilities and possibly evade.

Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 25 pts
Separatist (VR)

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Droid Army Commander [ Characters with Cyborg are not effected by this characters special abilities or Commander Effects]
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Grievous]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares gain Mobile Attack.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."
[/quote]

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Sithborg Offline
Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 am
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Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 25 pts
Separatist (VR)

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Grievous]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Cyborgs are not subject to these effects. Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares gain Mobile Attack.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."


Tweak. I don't think a new ability is necessary. CE's have been able change the normal restrictions, so I don't see why they couldn't also add restrictions. Though, normally, it would be part of the effect themselves. This is just easier than adding Seperatist non-Cyborg Droid to each part.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 10:25 am
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I like the CE change much better.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:26 pm
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Yes, that solves it. I think he's good to go now.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:27 pm
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I'll call him done as well

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:08 pm
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I'm still concerned.

Two of the best abilities in the game for shooters (already dominant over Melee), given to the faction with the cheapest shooters and the incredible/under costed BX spotter droids. +12 for 40/twin is awesome.

I've said my piece, I'll relent if this sets designers disagree.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 3:42 pm
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TimmerB123 wrote:
+12 for 40/twin is awesome.

How is this possible? Do you mean +12 for 20 and Twin...so 40dmg? Or 80dmg?

+12 for 20 with Twin isn't all that big of a deal. Which pieces are you talking about?

As I've said before, I roll my eyes when I see grunts pouring out more damage than jedi. But if it's 20dmg pings then I'm not so worried.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:01 pm
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I'm still really confused, Tim. Spotter works on one attack. So, why is Twin an issue. Whorm does let you get similar results as the Sniper, but without the Sniper, you are not getting the 3pt discount on the Spotter. And Mobile doesn't seem like great Synergy with the Spotter, as you will want the Spotter adjacent to your shooter, while the Spotter has LOS to the enemy to combine fire.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:44 pm
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40 damage each. 80 total with twin. 2 spotters. Standing in LoS, since they have stealth and energy shields. Then the 3 pt battle droids pop in and out for twin accurate attacks. Use the spotter when you need the extra damage. We all know that 80 damage is key to kill very important pieces. If the enemy rushes in, it's a hornet's nest of double twins. Out-activating is almost a lock. If you have enough shots, they'll start to get through even higher defenses. What I really worry about is the NPE factor. Kill all door control and lock out. Super easy to roll a 4 or an 8 to kill an uggie (with 2 chances per bd to do it) and even easier to kill Lobot. R7s might take a spotter or a couple BDs to do it, but easy enough.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:49 pm
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Could one argue that it is just as easy to mow through this entire crew of BD with what ever piece you have with strafe or galloping? Or even cancel the ability all together with Bastila?

If you are hanging your door control out to dry that is your fault not the games fault.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 4:54 pm
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If you're taking 2 spotters to do the 80dmg then you could apply the same reasoning to any Sep shooter. Durge would be doing 130dmg on 3 shots vs Jedi, or Commando Droids would be doing 100dmg with twin (30 for the Commando and 20 for the Spotters per shot). And you can only do it once per round, unless you're paying for more Spotters.

These pieces will be getting +12 for 20 with Twin. IMO, if there's a problem here, it's the BX Spotters, not Admiral Trench.


If I'm using Lobot (which most squads do) then I'd just bring Momaw to be Levitated/Towed/Swapped up and have him clean out a bunch of BDs. The Seps don't have the movement breakers to keep that from happening very easily. I think the Sep squad could have some uses, but I doubt it will be Tier 1.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:20 am
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So are the designers saying this is done?

Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 25 pts
Separatist (VR)

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Grievous]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Cyborgs are not subject to these effects. Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares gain Mobile Attack.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:28 am
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I'm fine.

Though a small price bump probably wouldn't hurt. It's not something I will make an issue out of.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:12 pm
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26? 27?

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:40 pm
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I'd be fine with a price bump. 27 sounds good. If he's going to be leading a whole bunch of BDs into battle then we shouldn't let him be too cheap.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:48 pm
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27 is good.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 12:49 pm
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27 is fine, but I don't want to go much higher.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 1:04 pm
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Done at 27.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 3:19 pm
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Done
Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 27 pts
Separatist (VR)

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Grievous]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Cyborgs are not subject to these effects. Droids are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares gain Mobile Attack.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."
[/quote]

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 5:31 pm
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The CE qualifiers seem contradictory. Can we go with this instead?

Quote:
Droids without Cyborg are subject to these effects:

...


or this?

Quote:
Non-Cyborg Droids are subject to these effects:


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 10:54 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
Droids without Cyborg are subject to these effects:...

I like this one. Thanks Dave.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 12:55 am
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thereisnotry wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
Droids without Cyborg are subject to these effects:...

I like this one. Thanks Dave.


Perhaps 'awkward' would be a better term for how it reads, but getting it down to one sentence seems to help, if it will work.

Honestly, I'm uneasy about the Mobile CE, I wonder if we're overlooking something, and also about the impact on future design.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 12:30 pm
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swinefeld wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
Droids without Cyborg are subject to these effects:...

I like this one. Thanks Dave.


Perhaps 'awkward' would be a better term for how it reads, but getting it down to one sentence seems to help, if it will work.

Honestly, I'm uneasy about the Mobile CE, I wonder if we're overlooking something, and also about the impact on future design.


Does the Mobile CE need to be Separatist Droids with a medium base? Would that help with future designs? I thought about adding non-unique to it, but I can't think of what/ who that would be.

Also I wonder when we are going to run out of droids for the seps? Looking through the list on Wookiepedia we have hit the majority of them. I understand thinking about future design. But I am not sure there are a lot of droids left to make.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:40 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
Honestly, I'm uneasy about the Mobile CE, I wonder if we're overlooking something, and also about the impact on future design.


Does the Mobile CE need to be Separatist Droids with a medium base? Would that help with future designs? I thought about adding non-unique to it, but I can't think of what/ who that would be.

Also I wonder when we are going to run out of droids for the seps? Looking through the list on Wookiepedia we have hit the majority of them. I understand thinking about future design. But I am not sure there are a lot of droids left to make.


You may have a point about running out of droids to make, other than digging into variations on some models. That's probably true of Seps in general if new content dries up.

Going to medium base cuts out some of the bigger hitters, but it still affects a lot of pieces, and with Accurate enables hanging back, pop out shoot and hide. Then just shred anything that closes in.

You can have 13pt Commando Droids with Officer/Gha twinning for 20dmg (woo), but may well be able to pull off Squad Firepower and/or Roger Roger boosts on some maps and then get back out of sight. New Gunray handing out Improved Spotter could also be a bigger deal with Accurate in the mix.

I'm not sure how to limit the Mobile effectively because of the sheer number of pieces involved. I suggested changing to allies to get the commanders involved in the fight without having to leave them exposed, so perhaps just Separatist commanders (droid or any). Accurate is still huge for the rest.

A major point is, Poggle is already a big NPE for a lot of people, and Mobile could easily add another if most of the faction gets it, even if it isn't a world-beater. 2pt bombs and a bunch of shooters mobile-twinning with Accurate sounds pretty annoying to me. Even if you exclude battle droids they can still combine and there are sweet CF bonuses to be had.

I'm curious to hear what others think about this.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 7:49 am
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A bunch of Geonosians and a bunch of droids dealing with anything coming across the field...reminds of something I seen in a movie once :)

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:01 am
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We haven't tested this with a lancer yet, but adding Mobile to it would enable it to do 80dmg (w twins and strafe and regular attack) to a piece when it's in the middle of its run. Kind of like how Cin allows Yobuck to make 2 attacks midway through his gallop (rather than the normal 1). I'm not sure you'd be using Trench in a traditional Lancer squad, but I could imagine using a Lancer (fodder clearing, protection vs melee figs) in a Trench squad.

All that to say: I suggest we give Mobile only to Medium droids.

Of course, an alternative to Mobile Attack might be Stable Footing or Advantageous Cover (not bad for BDs). ...Or Disintegration! :twisted:

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 11:50 am
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Yeah, the Lancer should not get any help. (IMO)

spitballing...

Separatist Droid allies gain Stable Footing. (Lancer doesn't care)

Separatist Droid allies without Flight get +2 Speed.

At the end of this character's turn, 1 (up to 2) Separatist droid ally(s) (without Flight) may immediately move up to 2 squares (speed). - (variables)

Whenever a Separatist Droid ally (within 6 squares) is missed by an attack, it can immediately move 2 squares.


Separatist allies gain Squad Discipline. :DSBoom: :P


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:53 pm
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All of those work well for me. I'm curious what the other designers think.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:47 pm
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Easiest option, drop the Mobile CE, drop cost down to 25. He is still a better version of Veers for Seps.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:14 am
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Quote:
Separatist Droid allies gain Stable Footing. (Lancer doesn't care)

Not a bad idea

Quote:
Separatist Droid allies without Flight get +2 Speed.

I would be concerned about the wheel form droids and the fact that all super battle droids have charging fire. This would probably be too much of a movement breaker and the Seps already have enough of that.

Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, 1 (up to 2) Separatist droid ally(s) (without Flight) may immediately move up to 2 squares (speed). - (variables)


This one has possibilities. What if it was worded like this. At the end of this characters turn Sepratist Droid medium based allies with out flight and within six squares of this character can move two squares. - This isn't quite as good as mobile but it sort of do the similar task of not getting your droids shot up.

The most likely thing that would happen as far as abusiveness goes is I out activate you, use my shooters and then go with Trench allowing most of my guys to reposition. The BX droid sniper would be the only think I can think of that might be a problem.



Quote:
Whenever a Separatist Droid ally (within 6 squares) is missed by an attack, it can immediately move 2 squares.

This would be my second choice


Quote:
Separatist allies gain Squad Discipline. :DSBoom: :P
well that escalated quickly.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:05 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Quote:
Separatist Droid allies without Flight get +2 Speed.

I would be concerned about the wheel form droids and the fact that all super battle droids have charging fire. This would probably be too much of a movement breaker and the Seps already have enough of that.

That is a very good point.

Quote:
Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, 1 (up to 2) Separatist droid ally(s) (without Flight) may immediately move up to 2 squares (speed). - (variables)


This one has possibilities. What if it was worded like this. At the end of this characters turn Sepratist Droid medium based allies with out flight and within six squares of this character can move two squares. - This isn't quite as good as mobile but it sort of do the similar task of not getting your droids shot up.

The most likely thing that would happen as far as abusiveness goes is I out activate you, use my shooters and then go with Trench allowing most of my guys to reposition. The BX droid sniper would be the only think I can think of that might be a problem.

I was using Flight as the mechanism to deal with Strafe, because strafers always have Flight (and it should stay that way), but the opposite certainly isn't true. If you go with Medium or smaller, it really isn't needed because that is only the Rocket BD, for now anyway. I just left it open for Large+, as depending on how many affected and amount of movement, it might not be a big deal.

Are you thinking of this as an extendable CE? (not sure, from how you phrased it)

Quote:
Quote:
Whenever a Separatist Droid ally (within 6 squares) is missed by an attack, it can immediately move 2 squares.

This would be my second choice

I thought it seemed relatively tame. It's situational but useful, more so to higher def figs.

Quote:
Quote:
Separatist allies gain Squad Discipline. :DSBoom: :P
well that escalated quickly.

I hope no one took that seriously. :D


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 3:24 pm
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Quote:
At the end of this characters turn Sepratist Droid medium based allies with out flight and within six squares of this character can move two squares.


Since I want an unlimited amount of droids to benifit I think keeping it to just Trench is what should happen. Plus I have another ability in mind down the road that might be be effected by this.

Not sure what it would be something like Proton Shield [Characters within 6 squares cannot be targeted by nonadjacent characters nor can they target nonadjacent characters or combine fire. (still a work in progress) But it is for another day.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Sat May 10, 2014 5:42 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Quote:
At the end of this characters turn Sepratist Droid medium based allies with out flight and within six squares of this character can move two squares.


Since I want an unlimited amount of droids to benifit I think keeping it to just Trench is what should happen.


OK, thanks. Could be tricky to word by QC will figure it out.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 9:20 pm
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Man, QC has some fun discussions over wordings. (I use the term 'fun' loosely) :)

Here are some ideas we batted around:
Quote:
Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares of that ally.

Medium Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares at the end of this character's turn. Count distance from this character only.

There were others, but those 2 seem to be the cleanest.


A higher impact change would be:

Move it to an SA, then move Ruthless to the CE.

Quote:
Battlefield Coordination: At the end of this character's turn, each Medium (or smaller) Separatist Droid ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares.


(Not advocating, just throwing it out there as another approach)


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:11 pm
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Quote:
Battlefield Coordination: At the end of this character's turn, each Medium (or smaller) Separatist Droid ally within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares.
Interesting. I like that, actually.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:35 pm
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While I like the battlefield cordination, I think this really needs to stay a ce that can be disrupted.

Quote:
Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares of that ally.

i like this one. However, I can understand that the other one could be easier to understand.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:46 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
While I like the battlefield cordination, I think this really needs to stay a ce that can be disrupted.

Quote:
Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares of that ally.

i like this one. However, I can understand that the other one could be easier to understand.


In the end, whatever is the most understandable (without creating new issues) should be used. The other one (TJ's) is very direct in it's intent.

A couple more alternate wordings from TJ to consider:

At the end of this character's turn, each Medium Separatist Droid ally within 6 squares (counting distance without Relay Orders) can move up to 2 squares.

At the end of this character's turn, each Medium Separatist Droid ally within 6 squares (counting distance only from this character) can move up to 2 squares.


We won't end up stuck with a wording like with an SA. Whatever gets the job done, and that works for Scott with the rules is good by me.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:15 pm
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The challenge is that if we mention 6 squares in a commander effect, the default for the majority of people is to think it can be extended by Relay Orders, but we want this to not be extended by Relay Orders. There has been confusion with GOWK's CE, and that isn't even counting distance from the commander, so making the wording on this both clear and concise becomes challenging.

Wording it so it is technically 'correct' is one thing, but we also want to word it so that all the players interpret correctly when it is different from what they are used to. And also be concise. We have four basic options:

In a separate sentence, explicitly state Relay Orders doesn't work.
Quote:
Medium Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares at the end of this character's turn. Count distance from this character only.
In a parenthetical, explicitly state it doesn't work.
Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, each Medium Separatist Droid ally within 6 squares (counting distance only from this character) can move up to 2 squares.
Count distance from the recipient instead of from the commander.
Quote:
Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares of that ally.
Use the 6 squares as a condition (like GOWK's CE) instead of a range.
Quote:
At the end of this character's turn, each Medium Separatist Droid ally can move up to 2 squares if this character is within 6 squares of that ally.

The first two are clear but rather inelegant and a bit longer. The last two are more concise but players are more likely to interpret them as being extendable by Relay Orders.

(Unrelated note: for space, we dropped "or smaller" because there are currently no Small Separatist Droids. It can be added back, though.)


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 9:30 pm
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3 and 4 are functionally equivalent.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:38 am
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I would prefer 1. I like 3 and 4, but I think there is some gray area there that if you are a casual player or even not so casual you could see how it could get bounced around through relay orders.

I have spoken my peace and will differ to Scott. He is the rules lawyer after all.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 10:29 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
I would prefer 1. I like 3 and 4, but I think there is some gray area there that if you are a casual player or even not so casual you could see how it could get bounced around through relay orders.

I have spoken my peace and will differ to Scott. He is the rules lawyer after all.


+1


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:19 am
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Umm, due to the wording of Relay Orders, you can't make it a ranged CE (ie from the commander) and not have it extended. The only way is to make adjacent.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:31 am
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Well shit.

how about this

Quote:
Up to 6 Medium Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares at the end of this character's turn.


So if we can not deal with the range we can deal with the amount of droids that can be effected by this. It might have to be followers instead of allies

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:33 am
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Quote:
Each allied commander can count distance from this character as well as from itself for the purpose of commander effects


Quote:
Count distance from this character only.


How does that not negate the effect of Relay Orders?


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:37 am
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How is it any different from Overwhelming Power and damage negation? Parry says it can negate damage. Overwhelming Power says it can't, negating Parry.

Relay Orders says you can count distance from the character with Relay Orders. This CE would say you can't do that for this CE, negating Relay Orders.

If it really doesn't work, though, then would we need to do something like this? It's even less elegant:

Quote:
Medium Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares at the end of this character's turn. Allies lose Relay Orders on this character's turn.


Les's suggestion above would be an easier solution.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 11:59 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Well shit.

how about this

Quote:
Up to 6 Medium Separatist Droid allies within 6 squares can move up to 2 squares at the end of this character's turn.


So if we can not deal with the range we can deal with the amount of droids that can be effected by this. It might have to be followers instead of allies


I just want to know why it doesn't work.

As to this suggestion, what Medium Sep droid commanders would be a problem?


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:52 am
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Quote:
I just want to know why it doesn't work.

Just another example of why this set has been so much fun to work on. Drip drip drip goes the sarcasm.



Quote:
As to this suggestion, what Medium Sep droid commanders would be a problem?

Brain fart. forgot about the not effecting cyborg part. My bad. I realized this in the shower this morning.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:03 pm
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We are really making things too difficult here...

Quote:
Droids (excluding Cyborgs) are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Medium Separatist Droid allies can immediately move up to 2 squares if Admiral Trench is an ally within 6 squares at the end of his turn.


The difference between a ranged and non-ranged CE is right there in front of the reader.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:14 pm
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Works for me.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:14 pm
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swinefeld wrote:

The difference between a ranged and non-ranged CE is right there in front of the reader.

Having the second CE on the card should help with understanding that you cannot extend it. As long as Scott is okay with it.


Last edited by FlyingArrow on Mon May 19, 2014 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:01 pm
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The wording could be modified a bit, but Recipient(s) > Effect needs to come first, then the conditionals.

Quote:
Medium Separatist Droid allies can immediately move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares.

or
Quote:
Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can immediately move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares.


I'm not sure if 'immediately' is even needed. They are functionally the same as the other. I was being overly verbose in that one just to drive home the point, but if that's what it takes to make it clear, so be it.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:15 pm
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I think the immediately is good to have.

LESHIPPY wrote:
Just another example of why this set has been so much fun to work on. Drip drip drip goes the sarcasm.


Well, don't worry. I will not burden the designers any longer.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral TrenchPostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:29 am
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Getting the whole card back in view, with the new 2nd CE. I changed it to 'within 6 squares of that character' at the end. Should we add 'or smaller'?

Anything else?

Quote:
15/45 Admiral Trench 27 pts
Separatist (VR)

HP: 70
Def: 17
Atk: +10
Dam: 20

Special Abilities
Unique
Rival [Cannot be in a squad with any character whose name contains Grievous]

Ruthless [Critical hits from this character cannot be prevented or redirected]

Ruthless Leader [Separatist Droid allies gain Ruthless]

Tactician +6 [Add +6 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Droids (excluding Cyborgs) are subject to these effects:

Separatist Droid followers within 6 squares gain Accurate Shot.

Each Medium Separatist Droid ally can immediately move up to 2 squares when this character ends his turn within 6 squares of that character.


"I smell fear, and it smells good."


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:22 am
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As long as it passes the rules lawyers, then I am good with it.

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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 8:57 am
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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 9:34 am
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looks good to me

edit: I do notice the font size drop in the CE, but not a big deal.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:04 am
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+1.
Looks good.

The second CE is going to need a good FAQ entry. Changing the beneficiaries from Droid allies to Droid followers would simplify the FAQ entry a bit.


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:30 am
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swinefeld wrote:
looks good to me

edit: I do notice the font size drop in the CE, but not a big deal.



Fixed
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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 8:33 am
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+1


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:59 am
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+2


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:10 pm
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+3


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Post subject: Re: 17. Admiral Trench - STATS DonePostPosted: Thu May 22, 2014 3:00 pm
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: approved :

ok, done. it is a bit of a mess, but there was a bit of emoticon code that was fouling me up when copy and pasting.

I really wish he still had the Super Accurate CE as I feel he would be much better handing that out, but I feel everyother change was good.

From my perspective, that is true to a certain extent. A good chunk of the set didn't seem difficult at all.

Trench was one of a handful of characters that had potential to become a problem. It took a lot of effort from all involved to spot some things, and then for the designers to figure out what changes would solve issues and maintain the overall design intent for those pieces without nerfing them too much. Hopefully the right balance was found and those pieces will be effective and fun to play. (and play against!)

I like how Trench turned out. I'm looking forward to seeing what people do with him when creativity kicks in.

Thanks for posting these, Les. IMHO, the majority of pieces in this set were exciting and intriguing to work on, but this one was not. I think the biggest difficulty, as Les said, was the difficulty of designing Sep droid commanders. But our goal was to help provide a non-IG-86 droid option for the Seps, and I think we accomplished that.