I figured I would fire up the way back machine today.
I figured I would fire up the way back machine today.
Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:20 pm
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 118 pts.
170 Hit Points
24 Defense
+19 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack
Greater Mobile Attack. Vaapad Style Fighting
Flurry Attack. Mettle.
Force Powers
Force 3. Force Renewal 2. Master of the Force 3.
Disturbance in the Force (Whenever this character is defeated, each allied character with a Force rating takes 20 damage.)
Force Absorb (Force 2: Cancel a Force power by an adjacent enemy)
Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: Whenever this character is hit by an attack, prevent all damage dealt with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Precision 3 (Force 3: This character gains +10 damage on its next 3 attacks this turn)
Master Speed (Force 1: This character may move up to 6 additional squares as part of his move this turn)
Commander Effect
Once per turn, on its turn, whenever a follower within 6 squares scores a hit against an enemy, that follower may make 1 immediate extra attack against an adjacent enemy.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:59 pm
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Based on the premise we won't be doing more 100+ point pieces, here is my new suggestion:
Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 74 pts.
150 Hit Points
22 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack
Vaapad Style Fighting. Flurry Attack
Cleave
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2. Master of the Force 2.
Force Absorb
Lightsaber Assault
Lightsaber Block
Lightsaber Riposte
Master Speed
Commander Effect
Followers within 6 squares gain Flurry Attack and Cleave.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:06 pm
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Can we make Vaapad Style Mastery?
Crit on 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20?
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Ruhk Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:12 pm
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Vaapad mastery: Crit on 17-20, does triple damage on crit
or
crit on 18-20, built in flurry on crit
or
crit on 17-20, crits may not be blocked (but can be redirected) {or not blocked/redirected}
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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:29 pm
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Vaapad Style Mastery (This character scores a critical hit on a roll of 17 or higher, and deals triple damage instead of double)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:24 pm
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I think I'd remove the commander effect. Mace wasn't a commander often, and I think the idea here is to represent him as a fighter (the way WotC should have done). Especially with the VSM ideas. BTW, I like your idea for it Dennis, let's go with the triple damage and 17-20. I like the flurry/cleave combo too, but I think it's too much for him to be that kind of an offensive beast, and give it out via CE.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:55 pm
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 65 pts.
150 Hit Points
22 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack
Vaapad Style Mastery (This character scores critical hits on rolls of 17 or higher and deals triple damage instead of double on a critical hit)
Flurry Attack
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2. Master of the Force 2.
Force Absorb
Lightsaber Assault
Lightsaber Block
Lightsaber Riposte
Master Speed
Without the Commander Effect, he doesn't need Cleave. He can get Rolling Cleave from Ahsoka.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:46 pm
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Good point on not needing cleave lol. That looks like a jedi I would play for sure. I think we can leave it to playtesters on if the cost is too high or not. I think in comparison to others, he fits, but most of the 60+ guys are overcosted, so hard to tell.
Although with the future GMA CE, this guy will have a place for sure, so probably right on if we think of it that way.
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Ruhk Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:31 am
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I think he's pretty right on. As bill said, cost may be adjusted based on what he can do during play testing. looking good.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:51 am
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RM - that shitty Mace from the final set. It sucked so bad I can't even remember its name.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:55 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
RM - that shitty Mace from the final set. It sucked so bad I can't even remember its name.
I suggest Les put that on the card. That would be epic flavor text :)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:13 am
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lol, yeah he should :P
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:26 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
lol, yeah he should :P
Then you could sign a few copies for Gencon prizes - totally epic!
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:52 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
Good point on not needing cleave lol. That looks like a jedi I would play for sure. I think we can leave it to playtesters on if the cost is too high or not. I think in comparison to others, he fits, but most of the 60+ guys are overcosted, so hard to tell.
Although with the future GMA CE, this guy will have a place for sure, so probably right on if we think of it that way.
He can be pretty scary with General Skywalker. Tow him up to within 12 and then run the distance for a LS Assault at +20 for 30 damage twice. Either of those go higher than 17 and its a third attack for 30 more. Toss in Ahsoka for 24 more points and now he is rolling on up if he kills the guy in front of him.
But he's still 65 points so there is that to contend with. :)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:04 am
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Mace Windu, BAMF :)
I think this piece will see much action, and I'm all for that!
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:21 pm
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PT
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:22 am
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exchange LS Block for LS Deflect/Defense.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:17 am
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Why? No Mace has ever had Deflect. I'm not saying I'm against it but I do need to be convinced. So far no playtest I have seen has tried to break this piece, not even so much as a Panaka swap squad.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:44 am
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Well the playtest guys still have issues with this piece, but I see it as a Lord Vader style fig with amazing damage output. I'm hesitant about giving him Lightsaber Deflect instead of Block, and absolutely opposed to changing it to Defense. I think he needs to have a weakness, unless we intend to bank his cost above 65, and probably above 72 for that matter.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:21 pm
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The problem with him as far as I am concerned is that he is too lopsided of a piece to play. He is amazingly good against melée squads, and pretty sucktastic against shooters. He IS a lot like Lord Vader, except that that kind of piece works way better in the Imperial faction than Republic. Without tempo control, when playing against shooter heavy squads WITH tempo control (like Rebels and Ig-86 Sep squads), he just can't hold his own. I'd like Block to become Deflect, while also lowering his potency against melée pieces (maybe drop FR to 1).
Honestly, as is, he is a fun and effective tier 2 piece, who can ruin the day of certain squads. If you want him to be a competitive piece, though (and I would personally love a competitive Mace), he needs to be more well-rounded.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:53 pm
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If you drop his Renewal to 1, I don't see how switching Block for Deflect really helps him. A group of quad shooters will still decimate him.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:38 pm
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Yep, even if we added deflect straight to his card at 0 cost, it wouldn't change his playability one bit. You are going to have to rely on tow and/or swap to play him against a shooter heavy squad - nothing new about this at all. He isn't going to be good against shooters. Instead of comparing to Lord Vader, compare him to Vader Scourge - who has 0 defense against anything. I hate "tier 2" vs tier 1 comments because they don't mean anything. I don't know what else Daniel you think is tier 2. I really don't. For me, something that's tier 2 is something that is really good, with about 1-2 glaring weaknesses in the meta. Is that Mace? Or does he decimate certain types of squads, that you can accept the bad matchups ala the Lancer? Jason calls double lancer tier 2.
From what I've seen in the play tests, he is working exactly as created, and as I anticipated. If I were making a squad with him (and I have yet to see squads that max him properly in the testing), I'd start with a Vader Scourge type build.
Mace LotLS 65
Panaka 23
Mas 8
R2 9
Captain Rex 33
Darman 23
Lobot
Ugo X2
Rodian Brute X2
Reinforcements - Chagrin Merc Commander, Rodian Brute, Gran Raider
This would struggle against IG swarms, but could handle most Rebel squads. Heck, Mace can one shot almost any of the Rebel shooters with pretty good odds on his own. And I'm not even claiming this is the most well built Mace squad, I just threw it together in 2 minutes. I think he and GOWK/Yoda GM make really strong combos, as well as Mace, Atris and a couple of Echani.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:25 pm
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From Echo's playtest report.
65 Mace Windu, LotLS
33 Captain Rex
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
23 Republic Commando Darman
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
5 Rodian Diplomat
4 Gran Raider
3 Rodian Brute
(200pts. 10 activations)
I'd say he maxed him pretty well. It's almost the exact thing you posted.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:32 pm
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Yep, I remember now.
I took a second look at his three games, he won against Vong, double lancer, and lost by 30pts to a Rebel build, with a key mistake and only because of time being called. I don't see anything that suggests he should have deflect at this cost. I see comments that he would like it, but I see nothing in the games that suggests we need to make a change we really don't want to based on flavor. I'd like to see some more test games with Mace - feel free to do it against Rebel Shooters, and Sep droids if you want. Heck, make one against a Mando shooter squad as well.
Again, I want to see evidence that a figure isn't working as intended before we consider changes. I have not seen that yet.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:55 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
Yep, even if we added deflect straight to his card at 0 cost, it wouldn't change his playability one bit.
Disagree. He still has a little trouble against shooter squads, but certainly much better against them, especially Rebel squads. With Deflect an activated Mace survive a phase exposed against Rebels with a chance at being healthy, instead of taking a pretty easy 90-110 damage.
Quote:
You are going to have to rely on tow and/or swap to play him against a shooter heavy squad - nothing new about this at all. He isn't going to be good against shooters. Instead of comparing to Lord Vader, compare him to Vader Scourge - who has 0 defense against anything.
Alright, and I'd probably level the exact same issues against Vader Scourge if he were a Republic piece.
Quote:
I hate "tier 2" vs tier 1 comments because they don't mean anything. I don't know what else Daniel you think is tier 2. I really don't. For me, something that's tier 2 is something that is really good, with about 1-2 glaring weaknesses in the meta. Is that Mace?
Yup. His glaring weakness being shooter squads (particularly with tempo control), like Rebels or IG-86 swarms
Quote:
From what I've seen in the play tests, he is working exactly as created, and as I anticipated.
I'm 100% ok with that. I just figured that since it's the 6th Windu and none of them are competitive right now, the goal for this one was to be a competitive piece. If that's not true, he's totally fine as is. He's a lot of fun to play, I'd just never bring him to any big tournament due to his glaring weakness.
Quote:
If I were making a squad with him (and I have yet to see squads that max him properly in the testing), I'd start with a Vader Scourge type build.
Mace LotLS 65
Panaka 23
Mas 8
R2 9
Captain Rex 33
Darman 23
Lobot
Ugo X2
Rodian Brute X2
Reinforcements - Chagrin Merc Commander, Rodian Brute, Gran Raider
This would struggle against IG swarms, but could handle most Rebel squads. Heck, Mace can one shot almost any of the Rebel shooters with pretty good odds on his own. And I'm not even claiming this is the most well built Mace squad, I just threw it together in 2 minutes. I think he and GOWK/Yoda GM make really strong combos, as well as Mace, Atris and a couple of Echani.
That's nearly what I playtested last, except I never brought in the Merc Commander. I really don't see how that handles most Rebel squads barring some luck. Pretty much if you don't get that crit when you really really need it, Mace dies and the squad falls apart (and you'll only get a crit 36% of the time you assault). Yeah, the 20% chance to get the crit and the flurry on it is nice, but it's still a little on the side of too gimmicky to be reliable if you ask me, and reliability is one of the key things I look for in competitive pieces. If I have to get the crit (even with the 20% chance) to survive, that's a dealbreaker.
Giving him Deflect on the other hand, even with FR1, and now there's a solid chance that he would come out relatively un-scathed. Yeah, with FR1 and Deflect a group of quad shooters will still give him some trouble, but as is almost ANY amount of shooting gives him trouble. In one of my playtest games against double Lancer just Grievous and the IG-86 sitting back far enough to cover the Lancer was enough to whittle him down fairly quickly when I went for the kill on the Lancer.
Like I said, I'm cool with him as is in that he's a fun piece. I just wouldn't expect anybody to consider him for competitive play as is. If the designers are ok with that, he gets my rubber stamp.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:17 am
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Discussed this piece further with Bill tonight, and I still feel that it's a bit sloppy. Seems like all the good plays with him are banking on him getting a crit on the Assault, which is only a 36% chance. To me, that's not good or competitive. His survivability against shooters is so low that when you get him in there if he doesn't kill the big piece (like Han or Cad) then it's going to tear him up in return, and with just Lightsaber Assault he HAS to crit to get that kill. Even then, if there is a bodyguard it still doesn't kill unless he can manage a second crit. Those aren't good odds, and that's not something I'd be willing to depend on for competitive play.
He's not broken, though, and doesn't hurt the game in my opinion. Not every piece needs to be a super competitive GenCon-winning squad cornerstone. I just think it would be nice to have a really good Mace Windu, and in my opinion, this is a really close miss.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:53 am
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Just switching Block for Defense gives him a tiny bit of a better chance, which would be the only thing I'd go for right now.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:10 pm
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Ruhk wrote:
Just switching Block for Defense gives him a tiny bit of a better chance, which would be the only thing I'd go for right now.
+8-10 on cost as well. MotF2, defense, 22d, and being a follower together with unprecedented damage potential and range mean this guy would need to be run up over the cost of General Windu. As is, he can only stay in the 60s, because he has a weakness, take that away, and we have to account for his full set of abilities.
Not every jedi needs defense. This guy is very very good. The issue isn't that he's not good. It's that Daniel thinks he relies a little too much on the luck of the crit to be a top tier mini, and he thinks we should have a top tier Mace. He thinks this is a tier 2 mini because he has a luck factor, but that he's a very good mini. Giving him defense takes him from very good and a bit of luck dependent to broken in my opinion. I'm happy with Mace as is, and he's already a bargain compared to even the better Mace Windus WotC made.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:28 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
Ruhk wrote:
Just switching Block for Defense gives him a tiny bit of a better chance, which would be the only thing I'd go for right now.
+8-10 on cost as well. MotF2, defense, 22d, and being a follower together with unprecedented damage potential and range mean this guy would need to be run up over the cost of General Windu. As is, he can only stay in the 60s, because he has a weakness, take that away, and we have to account for his full set of abilities.
Not every jedi needs defense. This guy is very very good. The issue isn't that he's not good. It's that Daniel thinks he relies a little too much on the luck of the crit to be a top tier mini, and he thinks we should have a top tier Mace. He thinks this is a tier 2 mini because he has a luck factor, but that he's a very good mini. Giving him defense takes him from very good and a bit of luck dependent to broken in my opinion. I'm happy with Mace as is, and he's already a bargain compared to even the better Mace Windus WotC made.
Mostly agreed. He is a good piece, he just relies too much on luck to be a great piece in my opinion. It's the same reason I dislike Captain Tarpals-type squads that rely on lots of saves of 11. If your opponent gets a good streak of rolls, you're screwed. With this Mace, if you go a game or two without getting that crit when you need it, you're also screwed.
I also agree that just swapping Block up to Defense would increase his cost. That's why I suggested dropping FR2 to FR1. He'll be going through FP for Master Speed and Assault already; if you give him Defense (or Deflect, which I think is a better choice, although I understand the opposition to this due to flavor) there will be an issue of FP management, while with FR2 that isn't really an problem. I think that could keep his cost in the 60s.
And of course he's a bargain compared to WotC's Mace Windus, but that's a pretty low bar to aim for. :P
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:16 pm
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Thinking outside the box. What if we raised his defense to 24? I realize this would be the highest base defense in the game, but it might address some shooter issues without forcing a substantial point cost hike.
Never was the intention to make a uber-cost Mace Windu. The game just doesn't need that. If you want to play Windu, you have to build around him, and this variation is no different. Nor should it be different, IMHO.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:55 pm
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Maybe this is an oversight by all of us here but mace is a F-ing killing Machine. Add captain tarpals to your squad and mace gets to assualt twice per turn :).
With that combo only costing 85 its almost worth just running tarpals for that reason only.
Do the math on a crit on 4 attacks on the move daniel i bet its pretty darn high odds that mace will facerape anyone that dares to get in his way. Even tossing in Darman, Pancakes, and rex is doable cause Darmin gets double Nades 40. Lets get someone to try that combo out.
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:59 pm
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ok so if he is just going to be a straight power piece whats everyone's thoughts on giving him Precition? then he can accually kill an erc or PL on the run without the crit.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:05 pm
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Weeks wrote:
ok so if he is just going to be a straight power piece whats everyone's thoughts on giving him Precition? then he can accually kill an erc or PL on the run without the crit.
Lightsaber precision?
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:06 pm
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ya whatever that thing
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:35 pm
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hey just wondering after playtesting this Mace feels like the old Mace (read any freakin previous MAce) way too much.
I was wondering would if it would be better to drop him down to double with twin. so maybe he can do more damage at a time.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:44 pm
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dnemiller wrote:
hey just wondering after playtesting this Mace feels like the old Mace (read any freakin previous MAce) way too much.
I was wondering would if it would be better to drop him down to double with twin. so maybe he can do more damage at a time.
He does feel like old Maces, but is definitely better than the others.
Giving him twin means he has 4 attacks on an assault. Then he has a 59% chance to get the 60 damage crit and a 5th attack. And he can do that from 12 squares away.
His damage output is fine, he just needs some kind of non-melée defense I think.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:52 pm
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Well ok I am just throwing my opinion out since I gave him a go.
As is I will never ever ever use him. I can find much better ways to use the 65 points.
His current stats play just like a the older Mace's. I dont factor in the crits as how he will play that is just extra fluff.
I would rather drop some of his critting ability and make him more playable without all the fluff. I want a Mace I want to use. Also maybe he could use a Commander effect so Anakin is not ordering him around. Just saying. I am just offering my opinion in the matter and it certainly doesnt mean anyone will listen or care.
I realize that with lightsaber assault and twin mace can do 80 on the move. That would make him desirable to play. I mean everyone thought it made Jaina sword of the jedi awesome the fact she can go 12 and do 120 damage. Well in current form you have same ole stale Mace with a worthless triple that I could care less about. I can use one of the other Mace's with just as much effectiveness.
I know the next comment is well he has Vaapad Mastery...... welll then you are telling me that is his only selling point then because otherwise he is the same lump of MAce.
Again this is my opinion and I am not trying to offend anyone I just thought we were looking to have a playable Mace and I just dont see it.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:32 pm
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 65 pts.
150 Hit Points
22 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack
Vaapad Style Mastery (This character scores critical hits on rolls of 17 or higher and deals triple damage instead of double on a critical hit)
Flurry Attack
Greater Mobile Attack
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2. Master of the Force 2.
Force Absorb
Lightsaber Defense
Lightsaber Riposte
He can run 10 and triple, allowing him to kill a 60hp mini without a crit on the move. I'm in debate about the block vs deflect/defense thing, but going off of Yoda GM, and thinking about Mace vs Jango on Geonosis - LSD can be argued for him. And this gives us something very different from other Mace's, as well as perhaps pushing him into the top tier. With triple vs LSA, his odds of critting hit 49%, so that takes a bit of luck out of his build. I debated taking away Masterspeed, vs taking away MotF2, but I remembered in Jaina SotJ, we left Master to allow her greater mobility for Mandos, but only 60dmg as an NR figure. So I think factoring swap and R2, Mace being able to go 10 at a cost of 2 force is quite comparable.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:04 pm
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I just can't get behind this piece. I'd rather go with Dean's suggestion to drop Triple for Double + Twin and/or lower the cost. If we kept it as it was, we could drop it to 54. I'd even be okay with giving him Deflect over Block, but I am not comfortable with him having Defense.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:22 am
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my thoughts
giving the republic a master speeding beat that can assault from 12 is not a new nieche for swap squads, yobuck already gives you that with gallop except he can go 16 squares. However having a more reliable 6 square 120 is more than reasonable particulally seeing as you can get it with dash anakin but odly enough from none of the republic jedi. Mace is probably the best jedi to fill that role.
Taking Deans idea, what if you took away MotF2 and changed him to double twin? A 12 square 60+ with flurry or a 6 square 120 (as you are always gonna play this guys with Gen Sky)
Now he fills a different role to yobuck in that he is a straight up killer. If he is too much with that then take away flurry. Either way i think you should aim to make offense his forte and leave a weakness so i'd discourage changing block for defense.
It seems that the design before was too middle of the road falling between two stools. You can't have him doing everything because it drives his cost up to where he isn't usable so you have to choose whether to have his power output high leaving him vulnerable or boost his D at the expense of power. I'd go former.
an example of what i mean
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 65 pts.
150 Hit Points
22 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. double attack, twin attack
Vaapad Style Mastery (This character scores critical hits on rolls of 17 or higher and deals triple damage instead of double on a critical hit)
Flurry Attack
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2.
assault
Lightsaber block
Lightsaber Riposte
master speed
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:39 am
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side 65 pts.
150 Hit Points
22 Defense
+16 Attack
20 Damage
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack. Triple Attack
Vaapad Style Mastery (This character scores critical hits on rolls of 17 or higher and deals triple damage instead of double on a critical hit)
Flurry Attack
Greater Mobile Attack
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2. Master of the Force 2.
Force Absorb
Lightsaber Deflect
Lightsaber Riposte
Just changed Defense for deflect - think Geonosis battle when he kills Jango.
Deri, I was confused by your post. It's very much what Dennis had before, and you mentioned 120 from 6, which wouldn't happen. It would just be a max 60 from 6-12 squares on what you posted. Not sure what was missing from what you were intending.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:57 am
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Move faster options aside, does it really make that much difference for him to be able to make 3 attacks after moving instead of 2?
The only other thing I can see is that it allows him to reroll 2 attacks, but he probably isn't going to do that if he needs the points for Deflect.
I'm fine with the latest version. I'm not sure he needs Master of the Force 2, but other than that I have no issues (and I wouldn't even call that an issue, truthfully - just an observation).
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:01 am
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:19 am
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There is actually a big different between two attacks on the move, and one attack.
2 attacks is 40dmg, 3 is 60, with GS 2 is 60 and 3 is 90. The 60/90 allows him to kill a great number of other pieces in one move that he couldn't kill without a crit. 3 vs 4 for sitting still is also an off setting piece of it.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:31 am
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billiv15 wrote:
Deri, I was confused by your post. It's very much what Dennis had before, and you mentioned 120 from 6, which wouldn't happen. It would just be a max 60 from 6-12 squares on what you posted. Not sure what was missing from what you were intending.
lol, no wonder you were confused. i forgot assault, probably the most important part of the fig i was making (i dited it for you to see what i was actually thinking). It was a bit late for me to be making suggestions i think :oops:
its probably just as well because twin flurry on triple dmg crits is probably a overbalancing and really hard to cost. SO you would probably need to drop flurry unless you adjust his stats and make it the only thing he does (by IT i mean a twin flurry machine).
After thinking about it for a while i think the crux of the issue is the amount of power invested in rolling a 17+. triple dmg with flurry means each crit is worth at pretty much 80 dmg with the potential for more.
its always going to make him a piece relying on luck that will be hard to balance. On a related note, this figure would actually make shatterpoint worthwhile seeing as your basically marking a piece for 80dmg with whatever bonuses you might apply.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:57 am
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:P give him shatterpoint for giggles?
I've always liked the combination of riposte and deflect. I'd say the latest iteration is a very good representation and quite playable. lets give is a PT or two to see if there are any major issues.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:37 am
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Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
Cost 65
HP 150
DEF 22
ATK +16
DAM 20
Special Abilities
Unique. Melee Attack
Greater Mobile Attack; Triple Attack
Flurry Attack (Whenever this character scores a critical hit, he can make 1 immediate extra attack)
Vaapad Style Mastery (Scores critical hits on an attack roll of 17 or higher and deals triple damage instead of double on a
critical hit)
Force Powers
Force 2. Force Renewal 2
Master of the Force 2
Force Absorb (Force 2: Cancel a Force power used by an adjacent character)
Lightsaber Deflect (Force 1: When hit by a nonmelee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:39 am
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:44 am
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:11 am
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:56 am
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Thoughts on changing Deflect to Reflect? I have a few reasons for making this late-in-the-game suggestion. For one thing, it eats up more Force points (which I suspect Windu is going to have a lot of Force points when he dies), and secondly for the point cost Reflect seems more fitting.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:40 am
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Which Reflect are we talking about? Loda's +10 Damage or Vader LotF all Damage?
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:46 am
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:06 pm
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Reflect is fine. Though remember he could burn though those deflects pretty fast against shooty teams. I could agree either way on it though cause I see your point on stockpiling force.
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billiv15 Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:37 pm
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reflect is fine with me.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:40 pm
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The other thing about it that sells it for me is it gives him some ranged offense which the Republic Jedi could use.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:23 am
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billiv15 wrote:
reflect is fine with me.
Chris what is the verbage I should use for this?
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:57 am
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Lightsaber Reflect (Force 2: When hit by a nonmelee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11 and the attacker takes 10 damage, save 11)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:15 pm
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:22 pm
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Looks like the start "[" for Lightsaber Reflect is bolded.
For Lightsaber Riposte, the end has a ")" instead of "]"
Do we want to use something small for Flavor Text? Because I can see how we can rearrange stuff some to clear up 2 lines to make space for something.
Also, I hadn't really noticed until now that you use brackets [] instead of parenthesis () for the stats (I seriously thought whatever font you used made the parenthesis look cornered instead of rounded). Do you want me to use those going forward when I QC stuff to save you time?
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:05 pm
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"This party's over."
I like this one, pretty well sums up what happens when mace is rolling crits.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light SidePostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:09 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
RM - that shitty Mace from the final set. It sucked so bad I can't even remember its name.
I still prefer this one :D
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:47 pm
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LOL, Brad.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:15 pm
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If we hadn't already spoiled that there's a new Mace I would have suggested we use that quote try to tease people on Facebook/the boards into thinking who we're talking about ;)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:48 pm
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I don't know what it was about the change, but I'm even more excited about this Mace now after seeing the stat card with Reflect than I was before, and I was pretty excited about this addition to the game from about 10 seconds after finishing the initial stat design discussion.
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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:33 pm
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The_Celestial_Warrior Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:47 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
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Hell yeah! :D Grand is misspelled as Gran.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:07 pm
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LOL
It's Grand, not Gran. :)
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:31 pm
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:07 am
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I like gran moff boris lol
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:02 am
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to promote health, maybe it should be "Bran Moff Boris".
Get your fiber!
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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:30 am
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I like to curse as much as the next guy but do we really want to put "shitty" on a card? I know it's lame to bring it up but someone has to before we post it.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:17 pm
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Weeks wrote:
I like to curse as much as the next guy but do we really want to put "shitty" on a card? I know it's lame to bring it up but someone has to before we post it.
I was not going to let it go to print with that flavor text on it. But it is funny.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:50 pm
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Yeah, don't print that. Maybe give that away as a special prize to select people at GenCon or something.
In fact, maybe we could do several cards with alternative flavor text as special prizes.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:18 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah, don't print that. Maybe give that away as a special prize to select people at GenCon or something.
In fact, maybe we could do several cards with alternative flavor text as special prizes.
Not a bad idea. I assume that you are talking about something that we would print out individually and not through Joe.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:19 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah, don't print that. Maybe give that away as a special prize to select people at GenCon or something.
In fact, maybe we could do several cards with alternative flavor text as special prizes.
Not a bad idea. I assume that you are talking about something that we would print out individually and not through Joe.
Correct.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:23 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah, don't print that. Maybe give that away as a special prize to select people at GenCon or something.
In fact, maybe we could do several cards with alternative flavor text as special prizes.
Not a bad idea. I assume that you are talking about something that we would print out individually and not through Joe.
I really like that idea! It would be our own version of promo pieces.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:28 pm
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Flavor Text:
[On the subject of his character's inevitable death in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005)]
"I don't mind dying, I just don't wanna go out like some punk."
--Samuel L. Jackson
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:36 pm
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I just searched for this to check for swinefeld in the spoiler thread, but Vaapad Style says you score a crit "...on an attack roll of natural 18, 19, or 20", not "18 or higher". Should Mastery be "...17, 18, 19, or 20..."? Is there even a difference (my thought process is that there's a difference between a "natural 17" and an "attack roll of 17")?
In the same vein, if my opponent has Atris, is a 17 still a crit? Rolling an 18 is a "natural 18", and would trigger regular Vaapad even with Atris going, right? I'm not sure if the current wording of Vaapad Mastery would treat a rolled 17-20 as a crit, since it doesn't specify that it's a "natural" roll. It's like how Mettle can effect Cortosis Gauntlet, since that calls for a character to "roll X" not "roll a natural X".
Just some stuff for the rules dudes to think about.
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:41 pm
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Somehow it seems that I copy/pasted the wrong definition. I had intended to say "attack roll of natural 17 or higher" to save space and somehow the word "natural" got lost in my edits (I see the version I had is the exact same version Dennis used on the first page, must have just deleted the wrong selection after rewriting it). It would have been something I'd have caught in the edits, I hadn't gotten to this card to check it for further QC anyway.
We can have it as "17, 18, 19, or 20" if you guys want it that way, doesn't make a difference besides taking up more space. So we'll need to change it to either of these:
[Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 17 or higher and does triple damage instead of double on a critical hit]
[Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 17, 18, 19, or 20 and does triple damage instead of double on a critical hit]
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:02 am
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 1:17 pm
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LOL at the flavor text.
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Lou Offline
Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:01 pm
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I love the BMF but still think it should be a SA
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:15 pm
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agreed
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Post subject: Re: Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side *PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:27 am
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ready for print
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