Since I have missed a few days of posting and with the discussion that I read on the Daala errata thread. I figured that this would be a good time to take a look a look back at the first try of getting the IMPs away from always using Thrawn. So I will post all three and the thread where we discussed all three at once.


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Post subject: Flim*PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:56 am
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Flim

Cost 23

40 HP
14 def
3. Att
10 Dam

Unique (Counts as Grand Admiral Thrawn)
Cloaked


CE:troopers gain deceptive

All I got for now.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:46 am
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Flim
28?
hp 50
def 18
+3
10

Unique (counts as thrawn)
Cannot be in a sqaud with Palleon
Greater Disruptive - Commander effects and special abilites that increase a characters base damage are supressed within 6 squares

CE - At the end of his turn he can inspire an imperial ally to make an attack. this does not count as activating the attacking character or as an activation.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:51 am
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Here is my thinking on this guy. in the book he had the new repuublic freaked out that thrawn had returned. He was not the tactitan though. That should be Tierce. The Imperial troops were inspired that Thrawn and worked more efficiently than they were prior to that.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:55 am
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Not sure if he should count as Thrawn. He wasn't Thrawn. That being said if we make him his own person, we will have to be make sure whatever he does isn't crazy with Thrawn (unless we give him Rival).

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:22 am
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Wasn't the whole point of Flim to convience everyone that he was Thrawn and pretty much everyone thought he was Thrawn till the end. So I am not why he shouldn't count as Thrawn for this game. I understand that he physically wasn't Thrawn,, but there are many things in the game that don't make sense in the physical world or even the star wars physical world.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:59 am
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If he is getting Disruptive of any kind he can't be in a squad with thrawn. Him counting as thrawn makes that happen. I like that idea les.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:24 am
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I agree that if he gets disruptive he can't be on a squad with Thrawn (Although I'm not entirely sure why anymore).

If we are triying to follow in WOTC footsteps I don't think they would have handled it this way. (Think Squint and Malak who ARE the same person but don't count as each other and can be on the same squad easily.

And for the CE (basically the bothan noble CE right except for allies) sounds really neat and in flavor. We just have to realize that unless we limit it somehow (troopers/troooper oriented/ non-u/follower, etc), people will play this guy without the other two to boost their big gun (which is fine with me).

It just depends on how we want to go with these guys. If we go with Disra providing the troops, and Tierce providing the tactics, then this guy providing the leadership. I do like the idea and certainly think the imp officer is an underused piece and an update could be very cool.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:38 pm
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I need to think about disruptive. That's not really an imperial type ability. Disruptive should be used sparingly anyway. It's more of a "little guy fighting the man" type ability. Imperials are more of a "prove the power of the man" type faction.

I do like the bothan noble ce idea on him. As far as him counting as thrawn I think it would work that way OR we could make him change at setup and copy an allied commander or something idk.

For now let's look at this

Flim

20ish

50hp
15d
5a
10dam

Unique (counts as Grand Admiral Thrawn)


CE at the end of this characters turn one follower within 6 squares may make an immediate attack.


Another idea I had for a ce is

CE:whenever a non-unique follower defeats an enemy it may move 2 squares.

That might work better on tierce because as Dennis said they are more of a stand and shoot faction. It's the inverse of Crappy Veers' ce.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:52 pm
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I like that move 2 squares thing on tierce.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:57 pm
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What if we add doctrine of fear to him instead of disruptive? The extra movement is fine or maybe something that when you defet an enemy you get an extra attack.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:30 am
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A few ideas:

Thrawn's Double (This character has all the abilities of IE Mith'raw'nurodo, after initiative this character rolls a save 11. On a failure he loses all abilities from Mith'raw'nurodo for the reminder of the skirmish)

With this Flim is a very convincing thrawn as long as he can keep it up. You basicly get thrawn at a discount but could lose him if Flim cant keep up.



Double (At setup pick an allied commander, this character is considered to have that characters commander effect for the remainder of the skirmish)

With this Flim copies the command style of one of your commanders. So if you lose them Flim can fill in. This would create a Double Swap with Imperials so it may be too much.


I do like Doctrine of Fear on him. He was basicly pretending to be thrawn to scare the NR. So it fits. I think there is some potiential here for something cool i just dont know how to get it into the game.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:34 am
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Flim 28 points
50 Hit Points
18 Defense
+3 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Rival (Cannot be in a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Palleon)
Doctrine of Fear

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round. At the end of that character's turn, it takes 10 damage.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:05 pm
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So basicly joruus' ce? I'd rather remove the 10 damage part unless it works like pawn. He needs something good since I'm not getting thrawn or pelleaon.

CE:at the end of this characters turn 1 non-unique ally within 6 squares may take an immediate turn, even if it has already activated this round. At the end if that turn that character takes 10 damage.

Basicly imperial pawn but it's disruptable.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:26 pm
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Is there a game play reason or just a flavor reason why he can't be in a squad with Pelleaon or Thrawn?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:30 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
Is there a game play reason or just a flavor reason why he can't be in a squad with Pelleaon or Thrawn?


Flavor. Probably wouldnt be the end of the world it he could be in a squad with them. It's no weirder then having malak and squint in the same squad.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:10 am
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That's what I thought. I like the flavor of it, but just want to make sure we are keeping our eye on the pie so to speak and not making too many pieces with rival. I mean Rob let lots of things happen that didn't/couldn't happen canon-wise.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:13 pm
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We may have to reword the CE and make it more like dominate. Letting the Teranterak go again in Epics might be a problem as well as an Echani. Worth testing, but might have to make it have some sort of save.


Also RM should be Chiss Trooper from MOTF. This guy def didn't have a heavy weapon like the Merc.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:09 pm
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I'd vote no on Rival. I don't think it gets at the flavor nearly well enough to be worth doing. I think it actually creates as many oddities as it seems to fix. He and thrawn weren't Rivals, and theoretically could have existed and worked at the same time.

I think you have to use the Malak/Squint and pretty much every other out of timeline faction options into consideration, and just allow him into a squad with thrawn.

although, I do like the idea of mirroring thrawn in some way, that would make playing the two together wasteful, which in turn might encourage the flavor.

What about giving him Miththrawn's opportunist CE and Master Tactician, without swap, changing the range to rangeless (no need for mas) and giving it at a discount into the mid 20s?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:13 pm
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billiv15 wrote:
I'd vote no on Rival. I don't think it gets at the flavor nearly well enough to be worth doing. I think it actually creates as many oddities as it seems to fix. He and thrawn weren't Rivals, and theoretically could have existed and worked at the same time.

I think you have to use the Malak/Squint and pretty much every other out of timeline faction options into consideration, and just allow him into a squad with thrawn.

although, I do like the idea of mirroring thrawn in some way, that would make playing the two together wasteful, which in turn might encourage the flavor.

What about giving him Miththrawn's opportunist CE and Master Tactician, without swap, changing the range to rangeless (no need for mas) and giving it at a discount into the mid 20s?


That's an interesting idea. A good imperial squad without thrawn. He shouldn't have MT though. I do like allies gain Oppurtunist for his ce. Make him 20 or so with that and I'd play him

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:48 pm
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I would say no on the tactician. Tierce was the tactician of the three.

but I certainly thought about the idea of him giving out opportunist (maybe to followers instead of all allies) at a cheaper cost. And I like the idea of some sort of Dominate/make more attacks CE just not with movement I don't think.

Something like a cross between Yularen and Imp officer Or even Joruus CE.

So in this scenario

Disra supplies troops (Reserves and new Order 66 could even have rapport 1 for order 66 guys)
Tierce is the tactician and has the cool, move more if you kill someone
Flim is the leader and fake thrawn Opp and maybe a Imp officer type CE?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 pm
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Quote:

Disra supplies troops (Reserves and new Order 66 could even have rapport 1 for order 66 guys)
Tierce is the tactician and has the cool, move more if you kill someone
Flim is the leader and fake thrawn Opp and maybe a Imp officer type CE?


This.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:08 pm
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Flim 21 points

50 HP
16 def
7. Att
10 dam

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)


CE:Followers gain Opportunist
At the end of this characters turn one Imperial follower may make an Immediate Attack.


Going off of Jasons suggestions. Flim gives opportunist and a cannon shot. Made it Imperial followers only for now. Should test him with Grand Admiral Thrawn. Now you get both thrawns good parts. A weir squad could really abuse this possibly. Testing will be big here.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:50 am
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I'm not sold on giving out Opportunist. Two Imperial commanders already do that - do we really need a third?
Additionally, any CE this guy grants needs to have a 6 square limit at a cost of 24 or less.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:24 pm
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Something Graham thought up.

Con artist (each round at initiative make a save 11 with this character. On a success he is considered to have all of the SAs of Grand Admiral Thrawn. If this character fails the roll once he loses all uses of thrawns sa's.)

It's weird and complicated but its worth a mention.

I do think he should have something similar to thrawn. He played the part perfectly. I'm just not sure what that should be.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:59 pm
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This requires someone to have a Thrawn card and to be keeping up with it. I like the idea but I can see the problem issues, too.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:34 pm
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I had another thought about the Imperial Triumverate SA. I have that making them cost 1 less when in the same squad as someone else with that SA. My idea was to make them specificly work well together by having that SA grant them all 3 something when they are all in the same squad. I'm not sure what that would be or if its even worth it so if you have ideas now is the time :).

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:55 pm
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Weeks wrote:
I had another thought about the Imperial Triumverate SA. I have that making them cost 1 less when in the same squad as someone else with that SA. My idea was to make them specificly work well together by having that SA grant them all 3 something when they are all in the same squad. I'm not sure what that would be or if its even worth it so if you have ideas now is the time :).


It would be -2 in the same squad, since you can't get your own affinity, but the idea is sound. We did it with Omega Squad for the same reason. I like the idea generally. It's not enough to be a squad design necessity, but a cool way to help them work together anyway.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:40 am
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Ok so if this guy doesn't count as Thrawn then I think he should be moved to the Fringe. Basically he was a con man that the Imperials hired.

Squint and Malak wa s a WOTC screw up. I don't know the story behind the characters, but I get the just of it. If we are trying to fix WOTC why do go back and say well they did it so it is ok to continue doing things that way?

Also this guy should not get the same SAs as either Thrawn. He only inspired the Imperial troops and Officers and totaly freaked out the NR. He wasn't a tactitician nor did he have Ysalamiri.

Opportunist doesn't seem to fit well either.

I like this version.

Flim 28 points
50 Hit Points
18 Defense
+3 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique (Counts as a character whose name caontains Trawn)
Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)
Doctrine of Fear

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round.

Sorry i haven't had any time to keep up on conversations. this is the first thing I looked at with what little down time I have at the moment.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:50 am
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LESHIPPY wrote:

Flim 25 points
50 Hit Points
18 Defense
+3 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique (Counts as a character whose name caontains Trawn)
Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)
Doctrine of Fear

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one Imperial follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round.


Changed his ce to Imperial followers. If he counts as thrawn he better be amazing or he won't get played. IRS basicly imperial pawn instead of swap.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:39 am
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I don't like him counting as Thrawn. That would be like making Jodo Kast count as Boba Fett because he copied his armor. We didn't do it then, so I see no reason to do it now.

What if his free turn ce was for non-unique Imps. No Vaders, no Echanis, just a storm commando or an imp sentinal or something. I think this might alleviate some of the problems with him and thrawn on the same squad.

And maybe he could grant opp (or something) to just imperials? If you want everyone you play thrawn if you want just imps you play this guy and save some points? Use those points for Disra for more dudes or for Tierce for more abilities?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:15 am
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Weeks wrote:
LESHIPPY wrote:

Flim 25 points
50 Hit Points
18 Defense
+3 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique (Counts as Flim)
Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)
Doctrine of Fear

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique Imperial follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round.

Imperial Followers gain Opportunist.


Updated with Jasons idea.

I could leave Opp off personally. Peitt does it, Thrawn does it, dont really need another guy doing it. Id be fine with him having just that ce or maybe some stat boost to imperial non-uniques. Although I do see Jason's point about just not playing thrawn and saving the points by going with just Flim.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:16 am
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Yeah, I don't think we need another Opportunist character, either. Personally, I think I would focus on synergizing the CE with the other 2. As it stands, you have 1 that gives a free attack and then with the other allows conditional free 2-square movement.

I had this thought as well:

CE #1
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within 6 squares may immediately take its normal turn. This does not count toward the number of activations this phase.

CE #2
Whenever a character on your squad (including this character) is the third character to activate in a phase, its attack automatically counts as a critical hit, regardless of the attack roll.

CE #3
Whenever a non-unique follower within 6 squares scores a critical hit on an enemy character, it may move 2 squares at the end of its turn.

So basically you can activate a third character once per round and it scores a free crit. Then it gets to move (as do any non-unique followers that crit). Additionally, it encourages the use of RS Tarkin.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:27 am
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Flim 22 Points

50 HP
14 Def
2 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Con (If an allied Imperial Character is defeated this character gains the defeated characters commander effect for the remainder of the skirmish. This character may only have one commander effect from this ability at one time)
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate.

CE:At the end of this characters turn one follower within 6 squares may make an immediate attack.

So with this if you lose a commander flim can step in and fill that role. His main ce is just feeding shots to all the good imperial followers (not just non-uniques like the officer).

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:22 pm
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Flim 22 Points

50 HP
14 Def
2 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Thrawn Con (Cannot be in the same sqaud as a charater whose name contains Thrawn. At the start of the skirmish choose an allied commander and this character gains its commander effect for the rest of the skirmish.)
Disruptive
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate.

CE:Imperial commanders within 6 squares gain Disruptive.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:58 pm
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I do not like the idea of giving the Imperials access at all to disruptive.

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:37 am
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urbanjedi wrote:
I do not like the idea of giving the Imperials access at all to disruptive.

Why?

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:24 pm
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Nor do I, and certainly not for just 22 points. It's out of flavor for them.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:57 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I do not like the idea of giving the Imperials access at all to disruptive.

Why?


Disruptive is a guerrilla tactic. Or a "fight the man" kind of ability. Hence why rebel and NR have lots of it. They Fight the Man.

Imperials are the Man. They get the job done by overpowering their enemies. Disruptive isnt one of their things.

I do like your doctrine of fear on him though.

For CE's we seem to be batting around 2 ideas.

Flim boosts followers by giving something (cannon shot, other allies ce)
Flim boosts Commanders by giving them a good ability (doctrine of fear, or the like)

What if Flim's CE was he gains an allies ce? Could do double swaps with him and thrawn so he'd have to cost high 20's. (60 points for double swaps) also could copy a lower cost commanders CE then use pelleon to drop them for another.

Only issue with that would be getting thrawns +3/+3 and dropping GAT for old thrawn. So you get +3/+3 and Opp.

So you would have to word it.

CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own.

So you get 1 of the 2 things thrawn does but not both.

Would make him look like this.

[quote="Weeks"]
Flim 27 Points

30 HP (he's a wimp so low HP)
14 Def
2 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate.

CE:CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own.
[quote]

So your options are to have a double swap. Costs 67 or 72 depending on which thrawn/mas you pick points so almost half of a 200 point squad. Or be tricky and use it with lower costed figs. Like have veers in your squad with flim and stormcommandos and use pelleaon to drop veers for nina. That way you have a bit of a mix of what you can do.

Could even copy Pelleaon and swap out 2 commanders.....

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:17 am
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What if he had an abilty or CE called confusion.

Confusion Enemy commander's commander effects that have a range of 6 are supressed to a range of adjacent.

What I am trying to get here is the flavor of the Empire when he is envolved. It is dying and grasping at straws It is no longer "the man". Thrawn/Flim coming back totaly shifts the new republic thought of the Empire. How did he survive, how are we going to defeat him? All the major characters are shaken. So I want this guy to sort of have that feel.

I sort of like the double swap option though..

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:07 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
What if he had an abilty or CE called confusion.

Confusion Enemy commander's commander effects that have a range of 6 are supressed to a range of adjacent.

What I am trying to get here is the flavor of the Empire when he is envolved. It is dying and grasping at straws It is no longer "the man". Thrawn/Flim coming back totaly shifts the new republic thought of the Empire. How did he survive, how are we going to defeat him? All the major characters are shaken. So I want this guy to sort of have that feel.

I sort of like the double swap option though..


Confusion:enemy commander effects with a range may not extend to further then 6 squares away from enemy commanders.

With this mas and mice dont work. It's a interesting idea. Are you okay with how his ce works?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:00 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Confusion:enemy commander effects with a range may not extend to further then 6 squares away from enemy commanders.

With this mas and mice dont work. It's a interesting idea. Are you okay with how his ce works?


Yeah lets try this and see how it works

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:55 pm
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Why not just give him Rout? Seems more sensible.

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:17 pm
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So that brings us to this.

[quote]
Flim 27 Points

30 HP
14 Def
1 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate
Rout

CE:CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own.
[quote]

are we going to do anything with Imperial Triumvirate? I had an idea for it but I dont remember what it was.

Is everyone ok with sending this to testing?

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Post subject: Re: FlimPostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:57 pm
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This looks pretty good.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:23 am
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Tierce’s Clone, Flim

Playtest #1 (Bobby Logan – kfc’s waiting for you):
-SET 4 PLAYTEST FORM/INFORMATION
MAP PLAYED: Rancor Pit
YOUR NAME: David Rei Miller aka doug*platypus
FACTION: Imperial
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 11
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE): N/A
V-SET 4 MINIS: Flim

OPPONENT’S NAME: Bobby Logan aka kfc's waiting for you
FACTION: Imperial
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 12
TOTAL COST: 199
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE): N/A
V-SET 4 MINIS: Tierce's Clone

(1) How did the characters abilities interact with each other? Quite well. I used Flim to copy Imperial Governor Tarkin's CE. I then had Darth Vader, Sith Apprentice and Captain Rex, 501st Commander with quad attack. I was a bit careless with Tarkin and he got killed early on, but Flim was still there to ensure they had triple.
(2) Did you understand how the Special Abilities/Commander Effect interactions work after reading them just once? No, but only because I was not familiar with Rout. We both forgot that I could have used it when I killed Tierce's Clone. It would have had some impact, but as it turned out it would not have changed the final outcome of the game.
(3) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place or missing? They made sense, except that imho Doctrine of Fear on a character with only 30 HP would not be very useful. He is too fragile to have him close to the enemy.
(4) Do the mini(s) work? Yes.
(5) Is the cost accurate? Based on this, my first skirmish with Film, I would have to say no.Both Bobby and I felt that he cost too much considering the only really useful thing he has is his CE. There were not enough synergies between the three Imperial Triumvirate characters for me to want to include any of the other two in my squad. Flim's Rout could potentially be useful, but is not something you could base a strategy around. It is more something that happens unexpectedly and could be a handy bonus if the circumstances were right. As mentioned earlier, his Doctrine of Fear will not usually come into play. He is fragile and best kept at the back.

(6) Any suggestions for it/them? Lower cost and more synergies with the other two Imperial Triumvirate characters.
(7) Analysis/description of the game: Bobby won map roll and chose Rancor pit. I chose the right hand side of the map and set up in the room in the top right corner. I usedThrawn's swap to move an Imperial Dignitary in for first round gambit.I moved Rex round into the next room at the top to give some coverageif Bobby moved into the open. Bobby moved his characters closer to themiddle, but still out of sight.
Next round, I moved a Brute close to gambit as bait. Bobby moved Dashinto the open and killed my Brute and my Dignitary. I moved Rex outand shot at Dash four times. Dash evaded three attacks, but was hitwith one for 40 damage with Opportunist. I then swapped Rex out ofharm's way, replacing him with Tarkin. Bobby used Arica and Tierce'sClone to kill Tarkin.
We then spent a round adjusting the positions of our pieces. At thestart of the following round, I used Rex to kill a Brute and an Ugthen have a shot at Tierce's Clone. Rex rolled a crit and hit theClone for 60. Rex popped back into cover and I then used Vader to GripTierce's Clone for the kill. Bobby used Dash and Arica to put somedamage on Vader. I swapped Vader out for Flim, then ran Flim back intocover. Bobby ran a Brute in to base my Ug and my Dignitary, then usedThrawn to swap in Darth Vader, Sith Apprentice. He then ran around mytwo pieces to base Rex inside a lift. The Ug successfully hit Vaderfor 20 damage on an AOO with Opportunist, but was itself killed byDjem So.
The agreed time limit of 1 hour was then reached, with the score 43-35in favour of Bobby. However, we decided to continue for another halfan hour to try and finish the game. Next round, I won initiative buthanded over to Bobby. He tapped Mas and play passed back to me. I usedRex to pop out and kill an Ug as well as Dash, then put 30 damage onArica. Rex popped back in to cover, but outside the lift that Bobby'sVader was in. I then used my R7 to lock Vader inside the lift. Bobbymoved his R7 closer. I ran my dignitary adjacent to the R7 and swappedin my Vader with Thrawn. Bobby put some more damage on Vader withArica, and moved Pellaeon in so that he was in range of my Vader withYsalamiri. I used my Vader to kill Bobby's R7, meaning that he wouldnot be able to get Vader out of the lift I locked him in.
Next round, I won initiative and based Arica with Vader so that shewould not have Cunning on him and so that she could not move awaywithout taking an AOO. She attacked Vader but did not kill him. Iswapped Rex in for Vader, then killed Arica and Pellaeon with him.Bobby then conceded with about 1 hour 20 minutes played, and the finalscore as 200-53.


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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:51 pm
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Ok i have given a fare amount of thought on the three IMP characters in this set over the bast 3 or four days. I am not really happy with the way they are currently. They just really don't seem to work together well for the cost. So here is what I have thought up.

Disra 20
30
17
0
0
Unique
Imperial Organizer - When this character is in your squad, your squad cannot contain Unique IMP Commanders unless their names contain Moff or have the Imperial Triumvirate ability.
Privateer Employer - You may bring in one fringe comannder that cost less or equal to this character for half price.
Afinity -order 66
Imperial Triumvirate - Cost 5 less in a squad with a character whos has Imperial Triumvirate.

CE:Whenever an Allied commander (including this character) is defeated, one non-unique Imperial Ally may make an Immediate Attack.

Flim 25
30
14
1
10
Confusion - enemy commander effects with a range may not extend to further then 6 squares away from enemy commanders.
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate - 5
CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own.

Tierce's clone 25
70
18
10
20

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Costs 5 less when in a squad with another character with Imperial Triumvirate)
Tactician +8
Double Attack
Blaster Upgrade

CE: Non-unique followers within 6 squares may move 2 squares after they defeat an enemy

So together they cost 55 points with an additional max of 10 point off a fringe commander. Flim might be a bit low for what he does, I would be fine with lowering his HP and dumping Doctrine of fear if needed.

Going through it in my head I sort of have this line of thinking. You can play Flim by himself, but he is pricey for no attack ability. Granted confusion is game changing. However to get him at a lower cost you can't bring in any good Unique IMP commanders or you get master tactician which would be wasted if you were going to run either Thrawn. plus you would have 40 point already wrapped up with out Thrawn or Mas. The Privateer Employer will most likely seen the TBSV brought in, but gives you other options as well. If we think the Dug BSV is a problem then we can up him to 21 pretty easily.

Thoughts. I will but this in all three character threads.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:25 pm
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I don't understand Confusion (no pun intended). So I can't count range with Relay Orders, or it just suppresses Booming Voice?

Disra will never be played.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:12 pm
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I'm not a big fan of shutting down booming voice unless it does so for both sides.

I think the ability to get a second swap for cheap is worth more than people think. This guy will be good.

I think all three will be good in some builds you just might not use all 3 at the same time. Unfortunately the empire has been defined before we got here as thrawn/mas/etc so we have to work within that design space.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:38 am
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urbanjedi wrote:
I think all three will be good in some builds you just might not use all 3 at the same time. Unfortunately the empire has been defined before we got here as thrawn/mas/etc so we have to work within that design space.


Or work around it to create an alternative. The problem is that we either end up making something far better or something far worse. "Equal but different" is very, very difficult to pull off given how good the combo is.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:52 am
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Is shutting down booming voice and mice any worse than bastila canceling all CEs for multiple rounds? There are many rangeless CE that will still work. Plus it isn't like you are lossing your CEs you just have to play things differently. Is that so bad? This guy will go down like a breeze against pretty much anyone. I don't see why this is a problem? Does he need to cost more for this ability?

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:50 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I think all three will be good in some builds you just might not use all 3 at the same time. Unfortunately the empire has been defined before we got here as thrawn/mas/etc so we have to work within that design space.


Or work around it to create an alternative. The problem is that we either end up making something far better or something far worse. "Equal but different" is very, very difficult to pull off given how good the combo is.


I agree 100%

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:55 pm
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LESHIPPY wrote:
Is shutting down booming voice and mice any worse than bastila canceling all CEs for multiple rounds? There are many rangeless CE that will still work. Plus it isn't like you are lossing your CEs you just have to play things differently. Is that so bad? This guy will go down like a breeze against pretty much anyone. I don't see why this is a problem? Does he need to cost more for this ability?


In a faction that doesn't have access to booming voice (ie OR/Mando/NR/Rebels/etc) I have no problem with it in theory. I do think its a problem to let one guy have boardwide swap and at the same time stop the other guys stuff.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:31 pm
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But it isn't stopping it. It is just limiting it back to the 6 squares from the commander. It doesn't shut it down altogether.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:54 pm
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The problem is this.

If you can still count from a mouse, then it encourages more mouse droids in case you face this guy and encouraging more mouse droids is certainly not what we want to do.

If you can't count from mice, then their squad becomes a 6 from the commander squad and your squad is still boardwide and that should be a pretty easy blow-out IMO and a game that the player on the losing side of doesn't have fun in. Plus there is the fact that the opposing player can't turn it off by doing something (or waiting until you run out of force like with bastilla).

Neither of these options seem like good alternatives to me.

I'm also not convinced that we need to do anything else to stop boardwide CEs. I think that we learned with Bastilla that it is very easy to overdo it even with testing and what not.

I still think that the ability to get a second swap from this guy (or any of the other cool CEs he can copy) make him worth his points just for that.

For instance if we leave Disra with the free shot when you die, now you get 2 free shots when you die. Or you can get 2 Fire supports if you play holoveers. Lots, and lots of cool stuff you can do, and plenty more stuff that will come out in future sets that means this guy will only get better with time.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:19 pm
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The more I think about it Jason, you might be right.
Flim 20
30
14
1
10
Rout
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate - 5
CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:45 pm
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Quote:
Flim 22
30 Hit Points
14 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage
Rout
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if you have at least one other character with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability on your squad)

Commander Effect: During setup, choose one allied commander effect. This character gains that effect for the rest of the skirmish.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:02 pm
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PT these stats then?

Flim 22
30 Hit Points
14 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage
Rout
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if you have at least one other character with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability on your squad)

Commander Effect: During setup, choose one allied commander effect. This character gains that effect for the rest of the skirmish.


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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:17 pm
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Flim 24
30 Hit Points
14 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage
Rout
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if your squad contains a character who counts as Moff Disra)

Commander Effect: During setup, choose one allied commander effect. This character gains that effect for the rest of the skirmish.


Dropped Imp Tri and changed wording for rapport

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:30 pm
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V-SET 4 PLAYTEST FORM/INFORMATION

MAP PLAYED: Asteroid Base

YOUR NAME: Darph Nader

FACTION: Sith

TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 16

TOTAL COST: 200

REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE): R7, Uggie & MSD x5

V-SET 4 MINIS: Klatoonian & Rodian Assassins

OPPONENT’S NAME: captaingig

FACTION: Imperial

TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 13

TOTAL COST: 199

REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE): R7, Uggie & Rodian Brute x3

V-SET 4 MINIS: Flim

(1) How did the characters abilities interact with each other? All of three pieces in play demonstrated a high level of synergy with their respective abilities & CE.

(2) Did you understand how the Special Abilities/Commander Effect interactions work after reading them just once? Both abilities & Flim's CE were clear after initial review.

(3) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Yes they did. Was anything out of place or missing? Nope

(4) Do the mini(s) work? Yes they all do but honestly I don't know why I would use a Rodian over the Klatoonian Assassin with his SD 30.

(5) Is the cost accurate? IMO, the cost is a bit low for the Klatoonian and about right with the Rodian or lower the Rodian. No issues with Flim's cost.

(6) Any suggestions for it/them? None, the double swap option for the Imperials is diabolical (love it)!

(7) Analysis/description of the game: Lost map roll, he went with Asteroid Base (I had the left side) final score Imps 74 Sith 15. Opening round piece movement on both accounts got Gha into gambit with the Klatoonian & Rodian right behind, his swap pieces began their positioning used my door control to limit his access points based on his setup. Brutes came in along the top with the Alpha Squadron Pilot while he moved another Brute along the bottom towards Sidiogram & Lobot who were setup/hidden away in the lower left quadrant. Zannah & Kaan were positioned in the lower left area with MSD's and Atton for covering action near the main door area. Second round I was able to kill a Brute along the top for no points with the Klatoonian but as I was about to find out Zannah's location would be my undoing, as I tried shifting her around for a head-long run to his backfield. My opponent then for his first swap, swapped in his Dignitary I was one square away from being able to Force Corrupt, which in essence is where I lost this match. Seeing this I moved Zannah back so I could move Kaan in position to use Thought Bomb on the impending Vader swap in, as she would get cut down by his Lordship. In the end Kaanbomb detonated, Vader saved and made his dark armor save to add insult to injury then proceeded to kill Sidiogram & Lobot at the bottom & top of rounds two & three. Then subsequently was swapped out before any danger befell him. GAME OVER! Devastating! Can't wait for GA on Flim, think on a double swap with Lord Vader & Arica? YIKES!

Editorial Comment....

It is this playtester's opinion that we are seeing an trend/effort to design pieces which create options/opportunities that open up boardwide movement (Foul Moudama & Flim). This invariably effects the number of activations in certain factions by adding these tempting options. Also with such pieces as Wuher & Tyber this is seemingly what the design team has set out to accomplish.

I like where the game is going...


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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:50 pm
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Quote:
Flim 22
30 Hit Points
14 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if you have at least one other character with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability on your squad)
Rout

Commander Effect
Whenever a non-unique Imperial follower within 6 squares defeats an enemy, it may move up to 2 squares. At the start of the skirmish, you may replace this commander effect with any 1 enemy commander effect.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:33 pm
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Nice CE Dennis. Fits perfect.

How would this interact with Telepathic Insight on the Yammosk?

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jedispyder Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:46 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
Nice CE Dennis. Fits perfect.

How would this interact with Telepathic Insight on the Yammosk?

Telepathic Insight occurs during setup so the Yammosk would get:
"Whenever a non-unique Yuuzhan Vong follower within 6 squares defeats an enemy, it may move up to 2 squares. At the start of the skirmish, you may replace this commander effect with any 1 enemy commander effect."

Then, at the start of the skirmish, both Flim and the Yammosk are able to switch this CE with another one.

With the CE, I'm guessing we'll want to do like with the Yammosk and have any specified faction able to turn to Imperial.


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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:06 pm
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Should he have something where he can't be played with Thrawn? Im concerned everyone getting Opp, Swap, + an enemy ce could get out of hand.

Vader Scourge with Twin from Whorm comes to mind. Or Lord Vader with Evade. With that ce Flim, Disra, and Tierce may be a good enough combo to make you want to forgo Thrawn anyway. They can still all but ensure they win init with their ability and their ces are all excellent.

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:45 pm
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As always, pt potential problems and see what shakes loose. We had the same concerns about the Yammosk and it worked out okay.

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Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:15 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Should he have something where he can't be played with Thrawn?


Yes, I have said that from the beginning. But no one agreed with me.

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WacoBlaze Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:06 pm
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From Kezza...some are now QC'd. I am notifying all PT tonight about what are done of their respective minis and urging them to PT their other pieces.

V-SET 4 PLAYTESTING - 7 APRIL 2012

MAP PLAYED: Ravaged Base

MY NAME: doug*platypus (David Rei Miller)
FACTION: Imperial
TOTAL NO. OF MINIS PLAYED: 15
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS: 20
V-SET 4 MINIS: Flim

OPPONENT'S NAME: DarthO (Oli Simpson)
FACTION: Separatist
TOTAL NO. OF MINIS PLAYED: 15
TOTAL COST: 200?
REINFORCEMENTS: 20
V-SET 4 MINIS: BX Commando Droid Sniper, BX Commando Droid Spotter, Grievous

How did the character's abilities interact with each other?

I only used one V-Set 4 mini, Flim, so that I could try using his CE to copy GAT for double swapping. They interacted beautifully. I did not use any of Flim's other abilities, choosing instead to leave him safe at the back with GAT and Mas.

Did you understand how the SA/CE interactions work after reading them just once?

Yes.

Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place or missing?

I like Doctrine of Fear, but with only 30 HP it is highly unlikely I would have Flim close enough to the action to use it with any effect. He would need a minimum of 50 HP for me to consider moving him up and using this ability, unless he had Cloaked. It was not entirely clear whether Imperial Triumvirate lowers his cost as it does for the other two characters. I think there should be additional synergies gained from including more than one Imperial Triumvirate in a squad, otherwise it will not be done (for example, +4/+4 if all three are used).

Do the mini(s) work?

Yes!

Is the cost accurate?

Too high in my opinion. I would cost him as he stands at 24 or less. If he had more HP, making Doctrine of Fear viable (see above), then his current cost would be more accurate.

Any suggestion(s) for it/them?

See above.

Analysis/description of the game:

DarthO won map roll and went with Ravaged Base. I set up on the left at the bottom, with GAT, Mas and Flim safe inside a room. I won initiative thanks to GAT's Master Tactician, but handed over. The first round was spent moving pieces closer to the centre (most of the action took place around the door in the centre). After moving Pellaeon up, opening the first door with an Ug then the lift door with Lobot, I swapped a Stormtrooper in for Pellaeon with GAT. I then ran this Stormtrooper into the lift, before using Flim to swap him out for Pellaeon again. Pellaeon was then in place to collect first round gambit. I also opened the centre door with my R7.

In the second round, I won initiative and handed over again. DarthO moved his Sniper and Spotter into position using Intuition. He then used his Tactical Droid to give the Sniper an attack and combined fire with the Spotter. He hit Darth Vader AOE, but I used Lightsaber Defense to negate the damage. I moved Pellaeon out of the lift to base both the Sniper and the Spotter, and used GAT to swap Vader in. DarthO had some great rolls and managed to put 80 damage on Vader, reducing him to 60 before I could use him. I did not defense any more, instead saving my FP for his attacks. I activated Vader and used Rage, hitting the Sniper for 80 and defeating it. I then used Flim to swap Vader out to safety for a Stormtrooper.

A couple of rounds passed with some low-cost pieces being defeated, and some good use of Energy Shield by DarthO to protect his pieces from my Stormtroopers. We were both collecting gambit as well. DarthO moved Grievous into position then used Spinning Blade Attack to kill a Stormtrooper and both my Ugs. He also moved Salacious Crumb up to base Pellaeon and a Stormtrooper. This cleared the way for my Brute, who was by the lift, to run past DarthO's Ug (who missed an AOO), out the door to the right-hand side of the map and base both his Commando Droid Captain and Tactical Droid. I then swapped Vader in with GAT. He was attacked by the Commando Droid Captain (who missed both rolls) before activating and using Rage to kill the Tactical Droid. Again, I used Flim to swap Vader back to safety. I moved Lobot to safety as well. DarthO used Momaw's War Throat to defeat two Stormtroopers, and time ran out with the final score 54-30 in my favour.

All in all, a fun game and a successful playtest with some exciting new characters!


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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm
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It's hard to get a good gauge of this piece if it's not being played with the entire Triumvirate.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:57 pm
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What about this?

We could drop the whole Copy CE thing and just give him swap

Flim 22
30 Hit Points
14 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if you have at least one other character with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability on your squad)
Rout

Commander Effect
Non-Unique Imperial followers within 6 squares gain +3 attack and +3 defense.


So Flim gets the other half of GAT's CE. We could go this route over the double swap. This would be super useful to Weir squads and it would help that side of the faction more. And Stormies would get it too meaning 23D troopers on your end. Flim gives you that and Rout for a fairly economical price. We also don't have to worry about considering him each time we make a CE.

Flim gives you good scrubs due to him looking like thrawn. You don't get Ysalamiri, Master Tact, or Swap so you'll have to play a thrawn to get those but you do get a nice boost to your non-unique shooter squads.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:59 pm
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I actually had a thought on this threesome.

What if Tierce was tactics (ie +2 to init for each one)
Flim was their saves (-1 to their saves for each)
And Disra was your saves (+1 to each of your saves for each)

So play 1 and you get some marginal bonus but play all 3 and now when you missiles they have a to hit a 14 instead of 11

I was trying to think of each of them adding to a different non-stat with each member of the tri.

Just a thought. Hadn't quite finished fleshing it out yet but it is a thought and it makes imp tri more relevant.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:14 pm
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Flim 20 Points

40 HP
14 Def
4 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your Initiative roll for every character in your squad with Imperial Triumvirate. And this character may not be in a squad with a character who counts as Grand Admiral Thrawn)
Report (Costs 5 less in a squad with two other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)

CE:Imperial Followers within 6 squares gain +3 attack and +3 defense.

SO you don't get swap but you get a solid building block for a trooper swarm. Arica gets a boost, as do several Vaders. It's Imperial Followers only so this will mainly bump up stuff like troopers. Vander unleashed with a 26 base Defense is interesting at least.

This Combined with Tierce would make for a whole new Imperial type squads that could get played sans Thrawn.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:34 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Quote:
Flim 22
40 Hit Points
15 Defense
+1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Doctrine of Fear
Imperial Triumvirate
Rapport (This character costs 2 less if you have at least one other character with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability on your squad)
Fearsome Reputation (Enemy characters within 6 squares are at -1 to saves. For each ally with Imp Tri in your squad enemies are at an additional -2 for saves)

Commander Effect
Trooper Followers within 6 gain +3 attack if they are within 6 of an ally. At the start of the skirmish, you may replace this commander effect with any 1 enemy commander effect.


Something like this maybe? Especially if we move the extra movement CE back to Tierce? Static attack bonus is somewhat thrawn-like but have to be close so won't really help any of the deep-strike squads and doesn't help on D.

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:50 am
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See my comments elsewhere.

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jedispyder Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:44 pm
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QC'd from main Triumvirate thread
SPOILER: SHOW


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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:22 am
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Add "except on a roll of 1" to Imperial Triumvirate ability.

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Flim*PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:00 pm
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