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Post subject: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:14 am
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Sorry if I mispelled the name in the subject. i am crunched for time, but I wanted to address all three of these pieces at once since they should work together. I am looking at the Combo of Grand Admril Thrawn and Mas at 45 points.

It would be ideal if we can get these three guys to be around 45 points when you play them all together. At least that was my thought when I proposed them. The Imperial Triumvirate when working together is a great idea. Maybe we can raise the saving to three to five each.

I think it is also easier to talk about all of them at once.

Flim 25 points
50 Hit Points
18 Defense
+3 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique (Counts as a character whose name caontains Trawn)
Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)
Doctrine of Fear

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one Imperial follower may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round.

Moff Disra (RM Imp Security Officer LOTF)
Cost 27
50
15
6
10

SA
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Costs one less in a squad with characters who have Imperial Triumvirate)
Opportunist
Betrayal
Fringe Reserves 30 (on 11 only)
Recon

Tierce's clone
Imperial
18

50
18
10
20

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Costs 1 less when in a squad with another character with Imperial Triumvirate)
Tactician +4 change to +8?
Double Attack

CE
Non-unique followers within 6 squares may move 2 squares after they defeat an enemy

CE:Your squad may contain Non-unique Characters with Order 66

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Ruhk Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:30 pm
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I'm not sure why you've created a new SA that does the same as rapport. To provide more incentive to play all three, you could chain the rapport:

Disra has rapport for Flim, Film has rapport of Tierce, Tierce has rapport for Disra (or something like that.)

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:06 pm
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Ruhk wrote:
I'm not sure why you've created a new SA that does the same as rapport. To provide more incentive to play all three, you could chain the rapport:

Disra has rapport for Flim, Film has rapport of Tierce, Tierce has rapport for Disra (or something like that.)


The original idea was for it to work like Omega Squad. Where it's report and one other thing. If we can't think up a good enough extra thing we can always chain them like you suggested.

As far as them all costing as much as thrawn + mas. That's not a bad idea but that means they would all have to cost 15(after report). So they would need to either be coated super low or be powered down. I think a good goal would be to have them all cost 20ish or less.

Another thing to think about is what else is going to be in a squad with these guys? What can you build out of the ce's they bring?

Tierce:you get a cool movement breaker for either strom commando squads or vader + stormtrooper swarms.

Flim:You get pawn for imperial followers basicly, buy you give up swap and opp. Arica blaster barraging twice seems good. Same with stormtroopers.

Disra: you get clones and possible reserves.

Even if you played all 3 you still would be playing more commanders to get your pieces going. Like if you play a tierce squad you'll still run vader and thrawn

If the 3 of them are good enough to be ran together they need some other thing added on to make them worth it. As it is currently you run all 3 of them and what else would you play? Let's answer that first.

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LESHIPPY Online
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:28 pm
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One thought that might help is to lose the within 6 part of Tierce's CE.
Another thought is that maybe they are -5 each when working together.

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Ruhk Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:22 pm
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Could do a 3 part CE: (like boost attack/defense/damage/Give an SA

So each member does something specific, for example, Film gives out twin, disra +4 Def, Tierce +4 attack. So all together you have a kick butt CE, and on their own they still are decent.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:12 pm
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Ruhk wrote:
Could do a 3 part CE: (like boost attack/defense/damage/Give an SA

So each member does something specific, for example, Film gives out twin, disra +4 Def, Tierce +4 attack. So all together you have a kick butt CE, and on their own they still are decent.


This isnt a bad idea at all. I played around some tonight with Flim and Tierce with Spry. Some things we came up with.

Tierce could use some more HP. 70 would work fine. Also thinking of giving him Blaster Upgrade so Stormies get twin. Can't extend it outward beyond 6 so he will always be up in the fight. His cost will have to go up a little for that but around 20ish points wouldnt be bad. So this would fit your Twin idea.

Flim counting as thrawn is a real bummer. I was trying to use Vader Scourge with him but couldnt quite get it to work like I wanted it. Maybe I'm not seeing some potiential with him. His ce + Swap could be broken potientially so i'll wait for more data.

Disra is one i could see swapping his CE for affinity and making it one of the above suggestions. As jason said though he didnt really do anything besides set the Triumvirate up. Tierce did most everything.

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:18 am
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Copied from the Flim thread:

I had this thought as well:

CE #1
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within 6 squares may immediately take its normal turn. This does not count toward the number of activations this phase.

CE #2
Whenever a character on your squad (including this character) is the third character to activate in a phase, its first attack automatically counts as a critical hit, regardless of the attack roll.

CE #3
Whenever a non-unique follower within 6 squares scores a critical hit on an enemy character, it may move 2 squares at the end of its turn.

So basically you can activate a third character once per round and it scores a free crit. Then it gets to move (as do any non-unique followers that crit). Additionally, it encourages the use of RS Tarkin.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:46 pm
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V-SET 4 PLAYTEST FORM/INFORMATION
MAP PLAYED: Smuggler Base
YOUR NAME: Chris Wuethrich
FACTION: Imperial
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 15
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE):
V-SET 4 MINIS:

Tierce’s Clone

Squib Trader

OPPONENT’S NAME: Stinkracer
FACTION: Old Republic
TOTAL NUMBER OF MINIS PLAYED: 7
TOTAL COST: 200
REINFORCEMENTS (IF APPLICABLE):
V-SET 4 MINIS:
(1) How did the characters abilities interact with each other?
I was able for the Squib Trader to give Explosive Supplies to 2 stormtroopers. I wish I had thought to give one of my commanders the ability since they were locked into a storage room. One of the troopers was able to blast one of the central door on the map.
With Tierce’s Clone I tried to keep him behind the stormtroopers to give them double from vader and twin from Tierce’s clone. Tactician actually made me miss my reseveres twice. The 2 square movement never really came into play.


(2) Did you understand how the Special Abilities/Commander Effect interactions work after reading them just once?
Yes.

(3) Did the abilities on the character(s) make sense? Was anything out of place or missing?
The trader made sense.
Tierece’s Clone should have something that he can’t be in an Paelleon squad. Blaster Upgrade doesn’t really make sense on him. He fashioned himself after Thrawn’s plan maybe he should just have the switching part of Thrawn’s CE without anything else. Give Imperial’s a cheaper Thrawn with Combat abilities that can switch people around.



(4) Do the mini(s) work?
The Squib trader used his ability to grant satchel charge twice. Tierece’s Clones Blaster upgrade worked very well with the stormtroopers making sure that they could move and still get 2 shots. With Blaster upgrade he had to get close but he doesn’t really have the defenses to stand in the open.



(5) Is the cost accurate?
Yes to both.



(6) Any suggestions for it/them?
I don’t see anyone playing the Squib Trader. You have to give up 3 activations to spend a full turn giving out satchel charge.
(7) Analysis/description of the game:
Tierce’s clone was fun to play trying to keep the stormtroopers close but still in front and in cover. It was great when I could line up 4 shots at 20 damage for each. It only happened once. He won the right side on Smuggler’s Base and moved his Jedi Battlemasters and Jedi Exile into the center and locked the doors. He then moved Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter around the outside as a target. This left to holes in my squad. One I had to spilt up my stormtroopers which made them a lot less effective out of Tierce’s clone range of 6. The other was I had to protect my stromtrooper with satchel charge to blow the door. I had him blow the door but a Battlemaster killed him instantly. 2 other stromtroopers gunned him down. The stormtroopers had trouble taking down Boba Fett so I moved Vader into contact with Fett. He had enough force to block 2 hits and take the rest of the damage. I blocked the first two and his third hit was a crit. Vader was disingerated. That hurt because I was hoping for reserves. I took out the Exile but the other Battlemaster and Fett made quick work of my troopers. He them looked in my commanders after that I conceded. The guy liked the stragety but said he would rather have 2 Czerka Scientists so that you can spread out your troops.


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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:15 pm
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I'd like to see these guys' CE's work more in tandem than they do currently.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:47 pm
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You know, Eric Frost has an idea somewhere that delt with this.

He said something akin to make all of them add a part of a ce. something like

Flim: +4 attack/+4 defense.
Tierce: Troopers Gain Twin
Disra: affinity O66 + some other ce

I dont think they should be played with Thrawn or Pelleaon. Every single 200 point Imperial build is a 160 point squad with thrawn and Mas in it. Maybe by giving them these 3 guys they can become something more then a swap squad. By highlighting the lower part of the faction maybe they will get played.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:44 pm
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I really don't have a problem with them being with Thrawn or Pellaeon (except Disra in this case). I also think if we stay with Flim doing the copy a CE thing that it would be a blast to do the double swap although not necessarily all that competitive.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:06 pm
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Weeks wrote:
You know, Eric Frost has an idea somewhere that delt with this.

He said something akin to make all of them add a part of a ce. something like

Flim: +4 attack/+4 defense.
Tierce: Troopers Gain Twin
Disra: affinity O66 + some other ce

I dont think they should be played with Thrawn or Pelleaon. Every single 200 point Imperial build is a 160 point squad with thrawn and Mas in it. Maybe by giving them these 3 guys they can become something more then a swap squad. By highlighting the lower part of the faction maybe they will get played.


I still would like to see them work in tandem with each other. For example:

Flim: Grants a free attack to non-unique followers.
Tierce: Allows non-unique followers to use replace attacks abilities twice.
Disra: Allows non-unique followers to use replaces attacks abilities instead when granted a free attack.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:07 pm
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Actually I like the idea of being able to use replaces attacks when granted a free attack however I don't think we should put a Tarpals like effect in the Imperials (or really any other faction save maybe Vong)

What if we left Tierce and Flim as we have them Move 2 after you kill someone and Copy an allied CE

and then made Disra CE can use Replace attacks abilities on free attacks or AoOs? Also left him to bring in non-u order 66 and made him Rival with Pellaeon?

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:08 pm
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And then make the rapport key off Disra. so if they want them cheaper they have to play disra and can't get rid of him because no pellaeon?

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:16 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
Actually I like the idea of being able to use replaces attacks when granted a free attack however I don't think we should put a Tarpals like effect in the Imperials (or really any other faction save maybe Vong)


What's the reason for this preference? I'm just asking. I have looked through Imperials and see nothing broken about the concept for that faction.

Also, I am not really a fan of Rival. This is a game of abstractions. It's unlikely Boba Fett would run with Jedi Weapon Masters even if it were possible, but he still did - all the way to the first Championship victory.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:32 pm
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
Actually I like the idea of being able to use replaces attacks when granted a free attack however I don't think we should put a Tarpals like effect in the Imperials (or really any other faction save maybe Vong)


What's the reason for this preference? I'm just asking. I have looked through Imperials and see nothing broken about the concept for that faction.

Also, I am not really a fan of Rival. This is a game of abstractions. It's unlikely Boba Fett would run with Jedi Weapon Masters even if it were possible, but he still did - all the way to the first Championship victory.



2 reasons. 1 it doesn't really fit thematically or flavorfully. And since there is no true flavor that I can see to have it be present then we would just get blasted for taking the easy way out and recycling commander effects and making every faction like every other.

Tarpals squads are very unique in what they do and I see no reason to really change that by allowing Imps to have the same thing. I could possibly see some alternative one like characters with FP or something on a future emperor (emperor reborn maybe) or a huge evil sith lord, but to me it just doesn't seem to fit anywhere else.

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:34 pm
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I still think these guys being an "Imperial Triumvirate" need to have CE's that tie closely together. It's not really thematic of Tarpals to have such an ability, either, but it is useful, interesting, and fun.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:34 pm
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I think we need to scale the Rapport way back. It's too much to allow you to lower the total cost of them by 15, given what they do. Without it, they total 66 points currently. With it, and getting the full effect, they only cost 51. So I would say drop Rapport and focus on what they do in tandem.

I understand concerns about Thrawn and Pellaeon, but that's - at a minimum - 50 points more that you are spending on commanders for a total of 116. That doesn't leave a lot of room for beef.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:38 pm
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Moff Disra 25 Points
30 Hit Points
13 Defense
1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Affinity (Characters with Order 66 may be on this character's squad)
Bribery 10 (before the start of the skirmish select up to 10 points of Imperial or Fringe characters. During placement choose to either keep these characters or take up to 10 points of your opponents characters brought in by rienforcements. Characters gained this way are considered Imperial until the end of the Skirmish.)
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character with Imperial Triumvirate and this character may not be in a squad with a character who counts as Thrawn)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less when in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumverate)
Rival (Pelleaon)

CE:If this character has line of sight to an enemy character Imperial Commanders (including this character) may not have their commander effects countered.

Tierce's Clone 26
70 Hit Points
17 Defense
+9 Attack
20 Damage

Unique
Double Attack
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll for each character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability. And this character may not be in a squad with a character who counts as Grand Admiral Thrawn)
Rapport (This character costs 5 less if you have at least one other character on your squad with the Imperial Triumvirate special ability)
Tactician +2


Commander Effect
Imperial Followers count as Non-Unique Troopers for the purpose of commander effects.

Flim 20 Points

40 HP
14 Def
4 Att
10 Dam

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your Initiative roll for every character in your squad with Imperial Triumvirate. And this character may not be in a squad with a character who counts as Grand Admiral Thrawn)
Report (Costs 5 less in a squad with two other characters with Imperial Triumvirate)

CE:Imperial Followers within 6 squares gain +3 attack and +3 defense.


Here's all 3 in one place.

Flim Boosts followers just like thrawn
Tierce is a good enough leader to get everyone to work together in the fight
Disra brings in dudes and watches to make sure they aren't discovered

They all three work well together and seperate.

If we wanted we could drop the second part of Triumvirate that I added where Thrawn can't be in the squad.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:50 pm
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I think we need to drop rapport some (maybe 2 or 3 points instead of 5) or raise their costs.

I don't like the idea of turning Unique's into non-u for Tierce's CE. Could maybe count all non-u followers as troopers or something but I think we could either end up missing something ourselves or hampering future design by allowing that.

Disra still needs to be non-u clones that he can bring in and might need to cost more.

I would rather they be playable with thrawn but could def be persuaded otherwise. I think people would just dismiss them out of hand instead of actually looking to see if they are playable.

I would also like for Imp Tri to do something different for each of the guys (and make it better the more you played of them) I suggested this awhile ago but got no feedback as we were all busy working on other characters. For instance

Tierce is the tactician so he gets the init bonus part
Flim scares the bejesus out of everyone else so maybe he makes their saves harder (could run this in a mines or missiles type squad)
Disra watches his back so makes your guys saves easier (a way to actual counter Exar Force Ghost or some of those crazy save 16 activations we have seen)

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:56 pm
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Those are all cool ideas. We could drop Triumvirate completely and just make it an identifier and add those things as straight abilities.

What exactly is your reasoning behind uniques getting the non-unique bonuses? just curious.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:02 pm
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partly just because the Us and non-u were made for a reason by Rob (and later by us) and the CEs are/were designed to work in that box. I think it would be very easy for us to miss some crazy combo or for some other future design team to miss something and it would also mean that every Imp U going forward would also have to get checked for what it could get from this.

Basically the same reasons that the design teams have shied away from making a humancyborg relations type ability that would allow a droid to gain CEs.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:04 pm
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While thats true remember to get tierce you sacrifice getting thrawn. The best piece in the game.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:04 pm
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If you look back you can see where I posted stat ideas of them with those abilities added in.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:07 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
I think we need to drop rapport some (maybe 2 or 3 points instead of 5) or raise their costs.

I don't like the idea of turning Unique's into non-u for Tierce's CE. Could maybe count all non-u followers as troopers or something but I think we could either end up missing something ourselves or hampering future design by allowing that.

Disra still needs to be non-u clones that he can bring in and might need to cost more.

I would rather they be playable with thrawn but could def be persuaded otherwise. I think people would just dismiss them out of hand instead of actually looking to see if they are playable.

I would also like for Imp Tri to do something different for each of the guys (and make it better the more you played of them) I suggested this awhile ago but got no feedback as we were all busy working on other characters. For instance

Tierce is the tactician so he gets the init bonus part
Flim scares the bejesus out of everyone else so maybe he makes their saves harder (could run this in a mines or missiles type squad)
Disra watches his back so makes your guys saves easier (a way to actual counter Exar Force Ghost or some of those crazy save 16 activations we have seen)



We could just make these Abilities if you really want to.

Tierce gets Tact +4
Flim: Fearsome Reputation (Enemy characters within 6 squares are at -4 to saves)
Disra: Strong Resolve (Allies within 6 squares including this character gain +4 to saves)

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:08 pm
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possibly true, but I would rather see them playable with thrawn because unless we make the Imp Tri squad just tons better than a normal thrawn squad people will play that because that is what they know.

Plus I like the idea of using one or more of them separately with thrawn (either to bring in clones with Disra) or to do something else with one of the other guys depending on which way we go.

It seems we are pretty close to having Disra done IMO. Bribery, brings in clones and either rival or no CE so you can't dump him with Pellaeon.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:10 pm
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We could just make these Abilities if you really want to.

Tierce gets Tact +4
Flim: Fearsome Reputation (Enemy characters within 6 squares are at -4 to saves)
Disra: Strong Resolve (Allies within 6 squares including this character gain +4 to saves)

I think we drop them down to +1 base and ten for each additional character with Imp Tri you get +2.

so 1/3/5 scaling. This would encourage playing them together but not make them terrible by themselves.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:24 pm
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Thats fine on the abilties.

I'm just going to be honest. The Replace attacks thing on tierce sucks. I've really tried to find a way where it could be useful but I havent found it.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:25 pm
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ok then lets change it to something else.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:33 pm
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I think the Uniques gaining Non-unqiue Ce's is at least worth looking at some more in depth. The worst thing that can happen that I can think of is Arica gets Accurate on Blaster Barrage. But she can already get it thanks to Price Xizor at 40, but it costs her 47 to get it in Imperials (26 Tierce, 21 Veers)

Some of the Vaders would get Cunning from Yage. But again 55 for Scourge vader, 26 for Tierce, 16 for Yage, 40 for Thrawn and mas = 137. Sure Vader is a badass doing 40 a hit on jedi whenever he attacks but what else is going in this squad?

It also only applies to Imperial Unique Followers. How many of those are good? How many of those shoot? I can only think of two Imperial Uniques that are non-melee, Arica and Hand Mara. What it does do is give you options to use older unused pieces. Maybe you use the 15 Point Stormtrooper Commander to pump up aricas Damage. Thats an old mini that never gets used that could be pretty cool.

I'll try and get a list up tomorrow of the characters that would be effected and all the Ce's so we can check it out.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:41 pm
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Yes it's true that most Uniques don't get much, but what about all the non-troopers who are now troopers. Imp Sentinel, 181st pilots, imp dignitaries, fair amount of stuff that is imp and not a trooper that we now have to run through trooper mentality to see if it is workable.

I do like the idea in concept, and we can see what pans out after you pull the list of imps that can come over. Plus all the fringe/order 66 dudes that Disra can bring in as bribery dudes since they are now Imps.

Def something to look at

BTW Would Vader Scourge get accurate shot on a LS Throw 2?

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:50 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
BTW Would Vader Scourge get accurate shot on a LS Throw 2?


No, its replace attacks. Same reason Boba Enforcer cant accurate missiles stuff.

I'll get that list up tomorrow. I got to get some sleep before Avengers tomorrow.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:48 am
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Guys, I have posted my thoughts elsewhere but let me reiterate. We're supposed to be in the final stage of printing and we haven't even fleshed these out yet! I take my share of the responsibility for that. It is far too late in this process to be doing a design overhaul of them, and dropping a relatively untested combo/trio into the game will be disastrous, even if the combo of effects weren't problematic on their own (as discussed elsewhere).

My suggestion is to scrap these three since we can't reach a consensus and just make some vanilla non-unique trooper types for the faction in their place.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:46 pm
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Taking another look at these...

Weeks wrote:
Moff Disra 25 Points
30 Hit Points
13 Defense
1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Affinity (Non-unique characters with Order 66 may be on this character's squad)
Bribery 10 (before the start of the skirmish select up to 10 points of Imperial or Fringe characters. During placement choose to either keep these characters or take up to 10 points of your opponents characters brought in by rienforcements. Characters gained this way are considered Imperial until the end of the Skirmish.)
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character may not be on a squad with a character whose name contains Thrawn or Pelleaon)

Commander Effect: At the start of the round, if this character has line of sight to an enemy character, Imperial commanders on your squad (including this character) may not have their commander effects suppressed this round.


Not bad, actually. Adjusted the CE slightly to clarify when it is checked and for how long it lasts. Also, I dropped Rapport. It's a nice alternative to Pellaeon, especially since he can't be on the squad.

Quote:
Tierce's Clone 26
70 Hit Points
17 Defense
+9 Attack
20 Damage

Unique
Double Attack
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character cannot be on a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)
Tactician +2

Commander Effect
Non-unique followers within 6 squares gain +2 Attack and +2 Defense.


Dropped Rapport (it was just too much to reduce the total cost by 15 for all 3), added Rival, and changed the commander effect to something more realistic. So it is not as good as GAT, but it provides an alternative.

Quote:
Flim 15 Points

40 Hit Points
14 Defense
4 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your Initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rapport (Other characters on your squad with Imperial Triumvirate each cost 2 less)
Rival (This character may not be in a squad with a character whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique ally within 6 squares may make an immediate attack or use a special ability that replaces attacks.


Kept Rapport on this guy, since he was the one who brough the three of them together. Also gave him one of the original CE's.

The three don't work quite in tandem the way they did before, but they still funciton as a unit. So with some PT I think this can work.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:32 pm
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Those look excellent Dennis.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:34 pm
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Does Flim allow you to use a replaces attacks force power? If so that could be really good. Swap in a nightsister and zap and then Flim makes her zap again. Still spends force but she gets to do it twice!

Same with Arica. A double blaster barrage could be awesome.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:39 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Does Flim allow you to use a replaces attacks force power? If so that could be really good. Swap in a nightsister and zap and then Flim makes her zap again. Still spends force but she gets to do it twice!

Same with Arica. A double blaster barrage could be awesome.


No. Force Powers aren't Special Abilities.


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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:02 pm
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I brought this up a long time ago when I QC'd the set list and never got a response, so I'll just bring it up again. Is there a reason we're calling the character "Tierce's Clone" and not "Grodin Tierce's Clone"? When I looked through the 2 novels the clone was in, I didn't see him referred as simply "Tierce's Clone".


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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:06 pm
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Go with Groden Tierces clone

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:08 pm
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Weeks wrote:
Does Flim allow you to use a replaces attacks force power? If so that could be really good. Swap in a nightsister and zap and then Flim makes her zap again. Still spends force but she gets to do it twice!

Same with Arica. A double blaster barrage could be awesome.


No, and also you can't swap as none of these can be plaed with Thrawn.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:59 am
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Would it be possible to give a swap to Flim? Something like range 4 squares or something so Mas doesn't work?

Make it much more difficult but still have some sort of ability to change up the movement.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:37 am
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I'd rather not. The reason is that doing that just creates a "carbon copy" concept in the faction. If the goal is to create all of the same effects with a different set of characters, why bother? Thrawn and Pellaeon are better - especially if it's a 4-square range instead of 6. I'd rather create unique flavor with this trio than just put all the same abilities on a set of characters with different names. It'd be like putting "Rebel allies gain Mobile Attack and Evade" on the new Leia and then giving her Rival for Rieekan.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:40 am
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Ok, I played with them using Dennis' newest stats in this thread. An Imperial squad without Thrawn is actually possible.

28 Clone Trooper on Speeder
28 Clone Trooper on Speeder
28 General Weir
24 Tierce (-2 cost from Flim)
23 Disra (-2 cost from Flim)
17 Storm Commando
17 Storm Commando
16 Rulf Yage
15 Flim
3 Uggie

played vs my GOWK squad from Owensboro.

Imperials won map and played on Bothan Spynet.

When I started playing it struck me. I had a bunch of range 6 Ce's and no Mas. If we are trying to push not playing thrawn as a decent idea we can probably change the triumvirates ce's to rangeless.

So some highlights. The Speeders doing 30 a hit with strafe is really good. They are +14 for 30 with cunning. I was able to get Disra setup to draw LOS to a uggie which let me get all my sweet CE's on my strafe even though I was facing Figrin Dann.

I was able to run a stormcommando 12 then use Flim to give him an attack to toss a grenade. Which put 20 on Obi and killed r2.

Disra was able to draw Los again late in the game as Figrin dann tried to disrupt a storm commandos shields so Obi could kill it. But Disra kept the shields in tact and the commando lived.

After strafing Obi to death I finally brought him down from shots from Tierce and Weir.

The Triumvirate is pretty fun to play. It gets you access to the Clone Speeder which will probably be the way to build a squad with them. Disra even gets your ce's to stay on vs bastilla and disruptive so it may actually be better then we think. The Tact +8 (effectively) helps fill the void of Master Tact and you can even make a pretty decent Imperial Speeder Pawn squad with Joruus. Run the speeder 24 and strafe and Joruus makes it go again. Sure you lose the speeder but thats 120 damage to everything which is really cool.

The only thing I would change from Dennis' versions in this thread is make the Ce's Rangeless on Flim and Tierce. You shouldnt have to play Mas in Triumvirate squads.

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Weeks Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:42 am
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Weeks wrote:
Moff Disra 25 Points
30 Hit Points
13 Defense
1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Affinity (Non-unique characters with Order 66 may be on this character's squad)
Bribery 10 (before the start of the skirmish select up to 10 points of Imperial or Fringe characters. During placement choose to either keep these characters or take up to 10 points of your opponents characters brought in by rienforcements. Characters gained this way are considered Imperial until the end of the Skirmish.)
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character may not be on a squad with a character whose name contains Thrawn or Pelleaon)

Commander Effect: At the start of the round, if this character has line of sight to an enemy character, Imperial commanders on your squad (including this character) may not have their commander effects suppressed this round.


Quote:
Tierce's Clone 26
70 Hit Points
17 Defense
+10 Attack
20 Damage

Unique
Double Attack
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character cannot be on a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)
Tactician +2

Commander Effect
Non-unique followers gain +2 Attack and +2 Defense.


Quote:
Flim 15 Points

40 Hit Points
14 Defense
4 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your Initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rapport (Other characters on your squad with Imperial Triumvirate each cost 2 less)
Rival (This character may not be in a squad with a character whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique ally may make an immediate attack or use a special ability that replaces attacks.


Upped Tierce's attack by 1 to 10. Took off range Restrictions on Flim and Tierce. I say they are good to QC.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:35 pm
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I'll wait for at least one of the other designers to approve QC.


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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:33 am
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Fine here for qc.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:19 am
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I'm fine with the rangeless option if we also took off the rapport. I factored the need for Mas into their cost.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:14 pm
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Take off the rapport and go with rangeless. This will def give a different feel to Imp squads with them.

Hey Rules guys? If I start the round and can see someone with Disra, do my CEs last all round if he is defeated (or do they become disruptable if he is defeated). I can't remeber the interaction with Force Sense and death.

Dennis/Weeks, what was the intent of his anti-disruptive ability?

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:28 pm
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Force Sense lasts till the end of the round, even if defeated.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:41 pm
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urbanjedi wrote:
Take off the rapport and go with rangeless. This will def give a different feel to Imp squads with them.

Hey Rules guys? If I start the round and can see someone with Disra, do my CEs last all round if he is defeated (or do they become disruptable if he is defeated). I can't remeber the interaction with Force Sense and death.

Dennis/Weeks, what was the intent of his anti-disruptive ability?


Well they don't get all the thrawn goodness so giving them something else to be good at was the idea. They keep their ces vs Bastilla and can now do all their new speeder tricks are immune to disruption.

That alone makes them pretty cool.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:48 pm
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Just want to make sure we word it correctly so it works like we want it to rules wise. I know that there have been occasions where that hasn't happened.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:53 pm
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The wording of Disra's CE should match Disciplined Leader as much as possible. I'm a little hesitant about an "anti-counter" with this power level, but maybe it is needed. It will certainly make it playable.

Quote:
Moff Disra 25 Points
30 Hit Points
13 Defense
1 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Affinity (Non-unique characters with Order 66 may be on this character's squad)
Bribery 10 (before the start of the skirmish select up to 10 points of Imperial or Fringe characters. During placement choose to either keep these characters or take up to 10 points of your opponents characters brought in by rienforcements. Characters gained this way are considered Imperial until the end of the Skirmish.)
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character may not be on a squad with a character whose name contains Thrawn or Pelleaon)

Commander Effect: At the start of the round, if this character has line of sight to an enemy character, Imperial commanders on your squad (including this character) may not have their commander effects suppressed this round.


Quote:
Tierce's Clone 26
70 Hit Points
17 Defense
+10 Attack
20 Damage

Unique
Double Attack
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character cannot be on a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)
Tactician +2

Commander Effect
Non-unique followers gain +2 Attack and +2 Defense.


Quote:
Flim 15 Points

40 Hit Points
14 Defense
4 Attack
10 Damage

Special Abilities
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate (Add +2 to your Initiative roll. This bonus stacks.)
Rival (This character may not be in a squad with a character whose names contain Thrawn or Pellaeon)

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique ally may make an immediate attack or use a special ability that replaces attacks.

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Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:42 pm
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QC'd

Quote:
24. Flim
Flim
Cost 15

HP 40
DEF 14
ATK +4
DAM 10

Special Abilities
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate [Add +2 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1. (This bonus stacks.)]
Rival [This character cannot be in a squad that contains any character whose name contains Pellaeon or Thrawn]

Commander Effect
At the end of this character's turn, 1 non-Unique ally can make an immediate attack or use a special ability that replaces attacks.

"If and when you get to the point where you've got all the military strength you want, you're still going to need me. I'm the only one in the group who knows the fringe."


Quote:
25. Grodin Tierce's Clone
Grodin Tierce's Clone
Cost 26

HP 70
DEF 17
ATK +10
DAM 20

Unique
Imperial Triumvirate [Add +2 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1. (This bonus stacks.)]
Double Attack [On his turn, this character can make 1 extra attack instead of moving]
Rival [This character cannot be in a squad that contains any character whose name contains Pellaeon or Thrawn]
Tactician +2 [Add +2 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1]

Commander Effect
Non-Unique followers get +2 Attack and +2 Defense.

"Just a clone? Is that what you said, Disra? I'm not just a clone. I was something special."


Quote:
26. Moff Disra
Moff Disra
Cost 25

HP 30
DEF 13
ATK +1
DAM 10

Special Abilities
Unique
Imperial Triumvirate [Add +2 to the initiative roll except on a roll of 1. (This bonus stacks.)]
Affinity [Non-Unique characters with Order 66 may be in your squad regardless of faction]
Bribery [During setup, after seeing your opponents squad, you may add up to 10 points of Fringe or Imperial characters to your squad. After setup, you may choose to select up to 10 points of your opponent's characters brought in through reinforcements instead of your original selection. These characters join your squad for the rest of the skirmish, are considered Imperial for the rest of the skirmish, and are set up in your starting area.]
Rival [This character cannot be in a squad that contains any character whose name contains Pellaeon or Thrawn]

Commander Effect
If this character has line of sight to an enemy at the start of a phase, Imperial commanders in your squad (including this character) may not have their commander effects suppressed this round.

"Nothing worthwhile is ever gained without risk."


NOTE! Since we are renaming him to "Grodin Tierce's Clone" then his arrangement moves up above Disra, so I included the character number to make sure it's easily known which position he is.

I did very slightly rearrange Disra's CE to match the other "line of sight at beginning of X" CEs. And I just threw on those quotes for FT, if someone can think of something better then I'm all for it. If only there were a cool short convo between the 3 of them that started in alphabetical order so we could have each of them have their respective quote, that'd be pretty cool but probably unlikely.


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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:23 am
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Should we replace the word "round" with "phase?" It would definitely make it more interesting, instead of him being able to position at the end of a round to see an enemy and then go immediately on the next round to get out of los.

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urbanjedi Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:16 am
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That would make it much more interesting and easier rules wise to explain to people and we wouldn't have to remember the whole round if he were defeated sometime soon.

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Grand Moff Boris Offline
Post subject: Re: Tierce, Flim, DisraPostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:21 pm
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And in line with existing concepts. Let's make the change.

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