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Klatooinian Assassin Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 8:23:02 PM
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TheHutts said

Quote:
I feel like a stuck LP, but the Devaronian Assassin is another Fringe shooter who's going to struggle for game time against the Klatooinian Assassin.


What would it take to make the Klatooinian Assassin no longer Tier 1? A ban or errata would obviously do the trick, but I would prefer to see counters instead. We got three counters that go right at Klats: Sentry, Pinpoint Attacks, and Defuse Bomb. That helps play around them, but I still don't see myself looking to anything else for offense in their price range - from 9 all the way up to 18. If somehow they weren't Tier 1, it would potentially open up the table to a bunch of other pieces.
pegolego
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 8:39:53 PM
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Had this come up again during a playtest tonight. Simply outclasses pretty much anything else in it's price-range in most builds. Builds with others in the price range can be good, but not reasonably better for the most part. As mentioned, there are a few things that work against them, but just not enough of it, it seems, to really keep them from still being the go-to piece for most any squad in that price range Sad

I don't really think they are 'broken' or anything. Just really powerful, obviously, and overall a negative element to the game, as they really cut out the diversity that could be seen in the squads that feature them.
Amadeus
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:00:27 PM
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Yeah, that price range is one of my favourite range of non-uniques, but I'd like to be able to pick something not-klat. I don't really think that making pieces that do well against it is the best solution, since those solutions also hurt its competition sometimes. I honestly think a small errata might be best in this situation.

Don't get me wrong, I like klats, but I too want to see things mixed up a bit.
HanSolo79
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 10:23:02 PM
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Here's an idea for a solution: why not make an equally powerful/interesting piece for each faction at Cost 10, 11, 12, or 13 (whatever works best in that faction)? I agree with just about everything people here are saying (and have said before) but I don't agree that we need an errata or ban. That's always an ugly thing imho, and really not necessary for this piece - unlike the Zygerian Slaver.

Another idea: add an economical fringe piece that has an ability, (like defuse bomb) as a counter. Maybe some kinda 4-7 pt piece. I can see some piece at say, 6 points, that has defuse bomb AND satchel charge or a 4 point piece that just has defuse bomb?

But lets remember too that there already are a number of pieces (admittedly mostly characters with a force rating) that have AoE abilities that can eliminate these kinda guys without having to get adjacent. There are abilities that can ignore cover when targeting enemies as well. So let's be careful we don't act like the Klat is more than it is. I whole heartedly believe though that factions need more options in or near the cost range of the Klat that can be useful & solid enough for a player to think twice before just going with this piece.
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:08:03 PM
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Rapport for non Klat pieces hahaha. Or most easy would be to have a counter to non-unique cloaked fringe pieces as there are only two, the Klat and the non-used Genoharden assassin. Example:

Booster Terrik
Cost 20 points
HP 50
Def 17
Atk 10
Dmg 20
SA
Unique
Intuition
Orbital Sensors (replaces turn; non-unique fringe characters lose Cloaked until the end of the round)
Fire Support Mission

That would be a huge deterrent and bring balance to the game. Or if one wants to be friendlier they can change it to:
(Replaces turn; chooses one non-unique enemy fringe character with cloaked, that character loses cloaked until the end of the round)
General_Grievous
Posted: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 11:08:42 PM
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This way also fixes a problem rather then furthering power creep more than we need to.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 2:46:41 AM
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I haven't seen a lot of Klat swarms in builds in competitive play lately, but I put one in most of my current builds to go get gambit early. While I like the idea of designing stuff to entice people away from using it, I think it is better to design pieces that can get either get around his cloak or diffuse his self destruct. There is some of that out already and maybe that's why I haven't seen the Klat in numbers of late. I agree that, at his price point, he is the go to piece.
SithBot
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 3:52:19 AM
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In Legacy we have pieces that are anti-cloaked like Bossk, Mercenary and the Mandolrian Weaponsmith has an ability that lets other people see cloaked by giving them infra-red.

Could be stuff to look at. If one or two characters in a squad have anti-cloaked rather easily, it can help a lot
Jonnyb815
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 3:54:41 AM
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Simple come out with more direct but indirect ways to counter cloak and bombs.
harryg
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 4:25:22 AM
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Force sense 2 k bye
adamb0nd
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:11:34 AM
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harryg wrote:
Force sense 2 k bye

Mando
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:21:40 AM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of Klat swarms in builds in competitive play lately, but I put one in most of my current builds to go get gambit early. While I like the idea of designing stuff to entice people away from using it, I think it is better to design pieces that can get either get around his cloak or diffuse his self destruct. There is some of that out already and maybe that's why I haven't seen the Klat in numbers of late. I agree that, at his price point, he is the go to piece.


I think an excellent design choice for a future Force Power to get around his cloak would be a new Force Power called Force Sense 2. Here is what I think would be good for the game if we went this route on this force power:

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round. Non-unique enemy characters lose Cloaked for the rest of the round.)

This way the Force Sense 2 user can still be effective at getting rid of stealth, but its ability to get rid of cloaked is limited to non-uniques. This is for the better, cause there has been a shift away from jedi centric squads and if we made Force Sense 2 able to get rid of Cloaked (through use of Force Cloak, which cost 2 force to use & replaces turn) on unique Jedi, then it really harms one of the best advantages that Jedi have on those pieces to survive against shooter squads. If it gets rid of Cloaked on non-uniqes, then I think it is a effective counter to the Klat Assassin as well as other figures currently being used, or future pieces that designers would like to give Cloaked to.
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:35:12 AM
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Mando wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of Klat swarms in builds in competitive play lately, but I put one in most of my current builds to go get gambit early. While I like the idea of designing stuff to entice people away from using it, I think it is better to design pieces that can get either get around his cloak or diffuse his self destruct. There is some of that out already and maybe that's why I haven't seen the Klat in numbers of late. I agree that, at his price point, he is the go to piece.


I think an excellent design choice for a future Force Power to get around his cloak would be a new Force Power called Force Sense 2. Here is what I think would be good for the game if we went this route on this force power:

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round. Non-unique enemy characters lose Cloaked for the rest of the round.)

This way the Force Sense 2 user can still be effective at getting rid of stealth, but its ability to get rid of cloaked is limited to non-uniques. This is for the better, cause there has been a shift away from jedi centric squads and if we made Force Sense 2 able to get rid of Cloaked (through use of Force Cloak, which cost 2 force to use & replaces turn) on unique Jedi, then it really harms one of the best advantages that Jedi have on those pieces to survive against shooter squads. If it gets rid of Cloaked on non-uniqes, then I think it is a effective counter to the Klat Assassin as well as other figures currently being used, or future pieces that designers would like to give Cloaked to.


If it was to be done with a force power then I would say this is probably the way to do it. It's too bad it takes cloaked away as a safe design piece for all of the factions. Especially looking at the Jedi/Sith non-uniques and those pieces that were costed well for the ability. But at least it still gives uniques their protection which is the most important part and at risk to be countered with a generic force sense 2 that strips all cloaked away.
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:37:08 AM
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How about this: Change Cloaked to Stealth. Done.

Oops, that's errata. nvm....
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 5:56:01 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
How about this: Change Cloaked to Stealth. Done.

Oops, that's errata. nvm....


If the errata route is chosen, I'm not sure that even that would do it. His +12/20dmg is so far out of line of anything else in that price range, that he could be a strong option even without Stealth. Do a search for Fringe, Attack 8 or higher, non-melee. To get a reliable +12/20 and situational +12/30, the next piece is Villie at cost 25.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:32:09 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
Mando wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of Klat swarms in builds in competitive play lately, but I put one in most of my current builds to go get gambit early. While I like the idea of designing stuff to entice people away from using it, I think it is better to design pieces that can get either get around his cloak or diffuse his self destruct. There is some of that out already and maybe that's why I haven't seen the Klat in numbers of late. I agree that, at his price point, he is the go to piece.


I think an excellent design choice for a future Force Power to get around his cloak would be a new Force Power called Force Sense 2. Here is what I think would be good for the game if we went this route on this force power:

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round. Non-unique enemy characters lose Cloaked for the rest of the round.)

This way the Force Sense 2 user can still be effective at getting rid of stealth, but its ability to get rid of cloaked is limited to non-uniques. This is for the better, cause there has been a shift away from jedi centric squads and if we made Force Sense 2 able to get rid of Cloaked (through use of Force Cloak, which cost 2 force to use & replaces turn) on unique Jedi, then it really harms one of the best advantages that Jedi have on those pieces to survive against shooter squads. If it gets rid of Cloaked on non-uniqes, then I think it is a effective counter to the Klat Assassin as well as other figures currently being used, or future pieces that designers would like to give Cloaked to.


If it was to be done with a force power then I would say this is probably the way to do it. It's too bad it takes cloaked away as a safe design piece for all of the factions. Especially looking at the Jedi/Sith non-uniques and those pieces that were costed well for the ability. But at least it still gives uniques their protection which is the most important part and at risk to be countered with a generic force sense 2 that strips all cloaked away.



force power won't matter, they are typically played in all fringe with talon karde, so they have a ysalamari bubble anyways
thereisnotry
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:32:14 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
How about this: Change Cloaked to Stealth. Done.

Oops, that's errata. nvm....


If the errata route is chosen, I'm not sure that even that would do it. His +12/20dmg is so far out of line of anything else in that price range, that he could be a strong option even without Stealth. Do a search for Fringe, Attack 8 or higher, non-melee. To get a reliable +12/20 and situational +12/30, the next piece is Villie at cost 25.
Yes, I know. I was being more silly than anything. Seriously, here is what I've suggested before:

A number of options could work:
1) Increase cost to 16, (maybe increase HP to 40 because it's hard to justify a 30hp piece that costs 16?)
2) change Cloaked to Stealth
3) Lose Jedi Hatred
4) SD 20 becomes SD 10
5) lower Att to +8 or +9, rather than +12

I don't think that any of these alone can do the job (although perhaps #1 would be enough alone). I think that you need to combo at least 2 of them. Personally, I think the best option would be to combo #2 and #5. Attack could be at +10 if he also lost Jedi Hatred (less jedi hate is good right now).
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:41:39 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
Mando wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
I haven't seen a lot of Klat swarms in builds in competitive play lately, but I put one in most of my current builds to go get gambit early. While I like the idea of designing stuff to entice people away from using it, I think it is better to design pieces that can get either get around his cloak or diffuse his self destruct. There is some of that out already and maybe that's why I haven't seen the Klat in numbers of late. I agree that, at his price point, he is the go to piece.


I think an excellent design choice for a future Force Power to get around his cloak would be a new Force Power called Force Sense 2. Here is what I think would be good for the game if we went this route on this force power:

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round. Non-unique enemy characters lose Cloaked for the rest of the round.)

This way the Force Sense 2 user can still be effective at getting rid of stealth, but its ability to get rid of cloaked is limited to non-uniques. This is for the better, cause there has been a shift away from jedi centric squads and if we made Force Sense 2 able to get rid of Cloaked (through use of Force Cloak, which cost 2 force to use & replaces turn) on unique Jedi, then it really harms one of the best advantages that Jedi have on those pieces to survive against shooter squads. If it gets rid of Cloaked on non-uniqes, then I think it is a effective counter to the Klat Assassin as well as other figures currently being used, or future pieces that designers would like to give Cloaked to.


If it was to be done with a force power then I would say this is probably the way to do it. It's too bad it takes cloaked away as a safe design piece for all of the factions. Especially looking at the Jedi/Sith non-uniques and those pieces that were costed well for the ability. But at least it still gives uniques their protection which is the most important part and at risk to be countered with a generic force sense 2 that strips all cloaked away.



force power won't matter, they are typically played in all fringe with talon karde, so they have a ysalamari bubble anyways


I stabs by my silver bullet Booster Terrik special ability then
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:48:53 AM
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If a force power makes it so they're only played with Talon, that basically solves the problem. They don't have to be unplayable, they just need be made to allow other options to shine. If they are only played in Talon squads, it's ok that they are played in Talon squads. Squads in any other faction that want a Fringe character at that point level will have options now.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 6:50:01 AM
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Cost adjustment would be the simplest. The character would work the same, so there would be nothing to adjust to in-game. If no other changes were made, I think cost 17 or 18 would actually be appropriate, even at 30 hp. At cost 16, I think he'd still be Tier 1, but no longer crowding out every other option around him. At 17 or 18, he'd only appear every once in a while.
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