Lets discuss what people think Standards and Legacy's role are in the SWM community.

Here is how I see Legacy (I wont talk for other people in the "Legacy" format)

We are a play group that welcomes anyone who wants to try it out. We understand a lot of the issues that a lot of people have with Standard because we lived them. We would love for people to try it out because it really is fun. I think every person who has ever played Legacy has had a blast. Which is the ultimate goal.

What I do not understand is why some people feel we are trying to have this huge revolution. Fact is that it is already happening as we speak, why are people so afraid?
We want the same thing as a lot of people. There have been quite a few long discussions recently about how the game should be changed and where it should go. Most all those things are things Legacy believes in as well.
Why ostracize Legacy when they are a part of a larger group of people bored with the game right now?

The relationship between Standard and Legacy can be very beneficial to Standard. Someone is not having a good time because of tempo control? invite them to play Legacy while things are trying to be balanced out in Standard. Once it is more balanced in standard, that person is still on the boards, refreshed because they had a lot of fun playing Legacy and can get back into Standard very easily. I know I am still waiting for Standard to be fun (IMO) so I can play it as well.

It is a way for people to stay in the game instead of leaving altogether. It kept bronson from leaving the game, it kept me from leaving (and a lot of our play group) it can be used to help people get a break. Heck, you have had a stressful year of tournaments (some people say its a headache) than refresh and have some fun running a competitive Cade, Shado, Wolf squad. Or a competitive Council Member army. or whatever, people say they had a blast running crazy armies and just relaxing while playing, that is our whole play style. competitive, strategic, fun, but more simple and more action.

As far as I am concerned Legacy is like the cool uncle you can visit. I swear a lot of people in Standard feel like we are going to kidnap that those step foot in our territory and never release them or something.

These are the reasons why I think people are mad. (following are how i feel people think)
#1 because we voice our opinions (especially me). This, in reality, should not be a large issue. Opinions are voiced over everything, it would be easy to voice your opinion to individuals, but Standard has no set leadership. So people can call out Bronson and insult him because he is the leader of Legacy. Until you all have a leader that is responsible there cannot be any private messages, etc.

#2 because we are somehow challenging the vset people who put so much work into the game. That feeling is going to happen because the people who have invested so much time into the game have to compete with a new "design" team. even if you think it is silly, it is true nonetheless. Fact is that it is great to have someone that pushes you and you can get ideas from. I have seen a lot of legacy influence in recent customs and vset pieces. Just like we pull from V-set pieces. Rolling attacks is on one of our new pieces coming out. Its not a bad thing and we are not inherently trying to mock, it is just a natural feeling.

#3 Because we were right, or people think we think we were right, or people know that we know that we were right, or people know that we know that we told them we were right and we were right and they didnt listen.

Well, today's world has seen a massive drop in players, often times the sole reason being the game isn't fun to them. I dont know if any one cares whose fault it is, etc. but the fact is that a few things got messed up while the people doing them had great intentions. but pride is a hard thing to overcome sometimes.

Do you honestly want to bridge the gap? Then don't come on and run down standard and the designers. Bronson and I had discussions and he got me on board with what he said he was trying to do. I made an effort to cover Legacy news on the show...I had Bronson on the show. At first, things seemed to be going well. The back and forth about both formats died down and things were positive on both sides. Then it started back up again...and it wasn't started by standard supporters, it was started by Legacy enthusiasts who think the way to build up their format is to run down the other. I know, because I watched...my support of Bronson wasn't received with a lot of fanfare, but those people were not taking their thoughts to the boards. Personally, Legacy isn't for me; I don't like the list of pieces that were banned. But, I could see that some people could see past that and could enjoy themselves. Honestly, there's no need to run down standard to build up Legacy...Legacy has enough positives that it can stand on its own without negativity towards standard. It may not be for everyone, but it could be for a good many people.

Legacy has its own issues like standard; neither format will ever be perfect. This is not the place to list those, because my reason behind supporting it was to have both, and maybe more formats in the future, running side by side with their proponents happily playing the game. Is that pie in the sky thinking by me? Maybe...sometimes when things blow up I feel foolish for trying to bridge the gap in the first place. What's the alternative?

I disagree with your assessment that numbers are dwindling because the game's not fun to those leaving. Numbers have been dwindling ever since WotC dumped us. Now, there are cool new Star Wars games on the shelves luring players away. I myself spend more time with X Wing than minis these days. One sure way to discourage new players is to blow up threads on the site we bring them to.

I still believe 2 formats can work, but only if the players believe 2 formats can work. If more time is spent running the opposing system down than extolling the virtues of the one you're playing, Bloomilk will just be a battleground and not some place we can point potential new players to.

I'd really like to read thoughts of everyone here when I get home from work tonight, and not have this thread blown up as well.

its just about respect.

Clearly there is a base of players who enjoy and invest time in legacy. Its a low activation melee orientated version of SWM.
However, there is also a core body of players that enjoy the game that WotC left us with and the vsets have contributed to.

Legacy, to me, is just another format like tile wars, royal rumble, epic etc that people can go and play and enjoy if that interests them.

It all only goes to shit when someone says "my dad is better than your dad" you guys suck blah blah blah.

Keep things cordial and ideas can be exchanged.

Become hostile and you just set up boundaries and antagonism.

I will say this.
SWM standard is hard. Its a massive complex puzzle that has mechanics that are tough but virtually all things can be countered. Can they be countered by the mechanic you like? Probably not. Tournaments are stressful. They should be, you are testing your idea against the remaining best players in the game. People will abuse what ever they can to get ahead. This is true of any competitive game. Upper end tournaments are first and foremost hard. You worry about what you are going to play, how your are going to play it, how you will beat your worst match up, then you play and get a few bad rolls and you tourney goes to crap.
Often, the negativity poured out after tourneys are generally because a squad you thought would do well got hosed and there are a ton of reasons outside of current available pieces why that is so. Using these after the fact conversations to attack people and the game is bad for everyone. Contstructive is always good but as soon as you attack people in the community it tears teh fabric.

You can still have fun outside of tourneys and put together theme squads with house rules on activations etc and the game still rocks.

We are a fragile, small community, treat it as such.

Agreed with the above. No one who exclusively plays standard SWM ever posts on JawaJuice or goes into the TN threads here on Bloomilk to talk trash. Why do you feel the need to do that to standard SWM threads?

In addition to that, I want to address this:



You need to understand that literally all 3 of these points are wrong. This is where you lose a lot of respect; people get upset that you regularly come into threads about the standard game and just talk about how bad it is and how people should play your version. That isn't just voicing your opinion, that is going out of your way to badmouth something. Nobody on the V-set team feels that you are "challenging" it. Like Deri said, we just see it as another format. We don't really care. If it keeps you playing the game, great, you do you. The problem comes when you start arguments about how your version is so much better, how it's fun and standard isn't, and how people should play your version and not standard.

Your third point, that people are mad because you're right, is really the worst offender. You have this attitude of massive arrogance. As long as the discussion is about how you're right and anyone who disagrees with you as wrong, people will not respect you. This just feeds into the "us vs them" mentality more than anything. It's always about how you PROVED that you are right. Well, I don't think you were right about a lot of things. I think you're wrong about a lot of aspects of what makes the game fun. It's okay that we disagree. But you need to stop believing that I'm lying when I say that I think you're wrong. Many times there have been posts by leaders of the Legends format about how everyone knows that something is true and we just ignore it because we hate you. That's not the case. That implies that when I tell you I disagree with you, I'm just being a liar. It's massively disrespectful and makes people much less likely to try out your format, because you just said they were lying or dumb (dumb in the case of saying things like "anyone who actually thinks about it knows that X is true"). You aren't having real discourse, you're saying "This is my opinion, anyone that doesn't agree with me is WRONG and LYING and DUMB".


The fact that trash is talked about the V-sets on JawaJuice doesn't help, either. There are regularly posts about how something is similar to a V-set ability that is bad and you guys mock. Hell, before V-set 9 came out, Bronson specifically said that he hoped that it would be poorly received. That is not the kind of thing you should say if you actually want the two formats to exist side by side.

The product (Legacy) may be good, the sales reps that are most vocal are rude and antagonistic.

Yeah, nobody's asking you to like Bill. I don't even like him half the time.

So if people aren't playing the Legends format, they are being vocal about how the legends sets are not good? That is a stretch to say the least. On SHNN, Jim has mentioned the Legends format quite a bit. To me that sounds like promoting, and Jim is a great spokesman for this game because he is a fair and balanced player. Just because everyone doesn't play Legends, does not mean they don't promote it. People have busy lifestyles and don't have time to engage in tournaments for the Legends pieces. If people don't feel like playing the legends sets and the rules/squad restrictions it enforces, then don't go and accuse those people of hating the game. They just don't think it is their cup of tea, to use the phrase. And there is nothing wrong with that! That is why we have so many formats of playing star wars mini's in this game. Legends certainly isn't the first to have a different set of rules or squad build restrictions (epic format for example). I've seen a ton of support from the Vset players for the Legends format, but maybe the designers mistook that as dissatisfaction with the V-sets, when in reality, people like me just enjoy playing different formats...because its fun, not because one is better than the other.

Some of the TN crowd think their version is better than the Vsets, and that is fine! But don't go on aggressive rants expressing a perceived persecution complex and bashing the V-sets. It will honestly turn people away from the Legends set formats very quickly.

So in conclusion, just because people don't play Legends does not equate to them hating the format or telling others to not play that format. I've not heard once a person saying to not play the Legends format. Not once! The TN guys will have to learn that not everyone is as enamored with their sets/rules/playstyles as they are. The same can be said about people who play Vsets, royal rumble, tilewars and epic formats. People have freedom to choose what they play and how much time they play it. To turn peoples lack of playing the Legends sets into an argument that they hate it and actively are campaigning against it vocally or otherwise is just wrong and looks foolish. This post wasn't directly solely at you droidadmiral, but more directed to all parties involved in this "us vs them" spat. If my words seem a bit harsh, well its been a few days now straight of reading forum posts attacking other players or the Vsets, and i'm getting very annoyed that it is crowding out the good discussions going on. So these is my last words on this subject.

Why are these posts so long?
Make your point, and move on.
The more you talk, the less I'll listen.

@ Spryguy, In the beginning, I was just trying to discuss things. I was not being antagonistic. I brought up Legacy because it literally walks had in hand with what Lou was saying. Most of it was talking about philosophy of the game and where it should go. Am I blunt about my opinions, you bet. Obviously, that is not a good idea on these boards, I guess I am used to our boards where people speak their minds and people deal with it. I know I have been told how stupid I am being multiple times.

@ DarthJim, I would like to have more cohesion between the two. As much as I am outspoken, "people from Standard" are just as outspoken. I do not start these threads, I participate in them though.

@ fingersandteeth, I can agree that being constructive is always better. Look, people have been saying the same thing for many years now. Personally, I think that the constructive viewpoint is being held back by a few people who always come running to the rescue whenever someone says something. Once one of them says something, three more jump on and the "constructive point" is lost.
Some say, well the point was made and it was not received; but its not received by the same people over and over and over and the point is lost over and over and over. quite annoying really. A top player is not happy with the game. Personally, that upsets me because I love the game. Lou's point was not really listened to by that same core group of people again. They refuse to hear it (is how I feel).

@ echo24

if you can go back and read I stated "I think are mad" for that very reason, I dont know why people are so upset because no one has really told me. How can I lose respect off a thought that I already declared was not based on fact but based on a thought/feeling? It was stated to start a dialogue. It seems that people are actually upset because they feel bashed. Something, that personally, seems kind of silly since all I ever talk about is the game and its direction, etc. I literally do not even know who the vset designers are because it is not important, the product is important.


I can definitely try to be nicer or less blunt about things for sure. At the same time I wish that when someone does say something against V-sets or Standard that the community would not raise a mass wall of posts saying the exact same thing they have been saying for years and actually trying to listen. It will definitely help those that want the point to be heard to not have to try and force the point. As much as I FEEL people want to defend, others want to be heard. I have been on these boards alot and it goes all over the place. Even on the pieces that come out. Someone says Ani/Obi there goes my shooters....
instantly a group of people defend its not broken, point lost.
Geez that looks like too much...
actually its not as bad as....

Not saying that every point has to lead to change or anything, but at least explored or not blanketed would be nice to see. Since we all want balance and a fun game, when someone sees unbalance or an NPE it should be thought upon carefully before dismissed.

actually from what I have seen anyone can comment or suggest on legacy pieces and stuff... literally anyone.