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Thoughts of a (semi)new player Options
Naarkon
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 6:05:12 PM
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Joined: 9/30/2014
Posts: 345
Location: Wisconsin
So I just got to go to my very first regional, and had an absolute blast, even though I did go 0-5 with 0 pointsSad
Anyway, I thought I'd address some of the issues that are being discussed from the viewpoint of a newer player who only recently started playing competitively and using the V-sets.

Power Creep
I know Wizards started the power creep and continued it in a major way, leaving the first sets of pieces largely useless in any way, often creating cheaper pieces better in every possible way than their predecessors, but that's no reason to continue the process. I don't mean to be rude, I know a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into creating the sets, but so many of the new pieces seem like they came out of a 'how many special abilities can we fit onto a card' contest. From my point of view, there are two thing the v-sets should be doing.
For the older/worse wizards pieces, create more targeted commanders like the Muun Guard Colonel who just benefit a specific outdated Wizards piece. I think we can all agree (hopefully) that really, Loathsom and Gha were bad ideas from a balance standpoint. Blindly giving out random effects to large groups of pieces really limits the creation of any future characters that would fit into that group. (I know both of those are wizards pieces, not V-set, just using them as an example)

For the newer/better wizards pieces, instead of just improving them, make different versions. Have a guy with cunning? Give his next version opportunist, lower his defense, and raise his attack. Then there are two different options for the character, roughly equal, but totally different, instead of a bad one and a good one. I know that this would be difficult since wizards was extraordinarily bad at costing, but just because there is a power creep precedent doesn't mean you have to continue it.

Ranged/Melee
By the very nature of how the game mechanics work, ranged pieces will always have an advantage over melee pieces. I'm glad some effort is being made to change this, especially since a main part of Star Wars is smacking things with lightsabers, and the more the better. However, creating melee pieces with cost/abilities to really make a meaningful shift in balance would require (in my opinion) some major power creep, and if the balance did shift, you would have to create counters to the new melee pieces so that ranged wouldn't be left behind.

Mouse droids
Having now played against a mouse droid dump in a competitive setting, I can definitely say that something needs to change there. There is just no reason for a mouse droid to be able to make a wall. To me, the obvious fix is to say that figures ignore smaller based characters for targeting (a very common rule in miniatures in general). Since most characters are medium-based, it wouldn't change all that much, and you are creating a universal and easy to remember rule rather than a specific errata. This has the added benefit of making the few large-based characters a little more playable.

This isn't a 'change this or I quit' rant. I plan to attend as many regionals as I can going forward no matter what the future v-sets are. I love the game, the star wars universe, collecting the figures, and losing to Naboo deathshots in 20 minutes. Okay, not the last one. I just wanted to give some feedback on what I saw (again, being pretty new to the whole thing) going forward with the game.

TLDR: Many of the new pieces seem like they came out of a 'how many special abilities can we fit onto a card' contest.
DarkDracul
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 8:09:20 PM
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Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,098
Location: Kokomo
Naarkon wrote:
I love the game, the star wars universe, collecting the figures, and losing to Naboo deathshots in 20 minutes. Okay, not the last one.

Yeah...I didn't enjoy that either.Sad I really appreciated how you played to win and finish our game. You never slowed down or tried to force a tie. Unfortunately, you failed every evade save but one and never got a chance to heal with Cade. If it makes you feel any better, Atmsalad wiped out my 26 characters in 45 minutes.RollEyes

Winning our game, winning against Logan, and losing to Atmsalad in under 30 minutes were the most satisfying games I played that day. My other matches were "ties" that went only 4 rounds and I lost by like 12 or 2 points.

I learned the weakness of Naboo deathshots firsthand. It relies on your opponent trying to kill your pieces. No, it doesn't matter how fast you play. It's too simple for opponents to nerf enough death shots with mouse droids or uggs because of the low attacks too just edge out a Naboo player on points at the end. Also, when the game goes to time everyone figures it must be your fault because you're the jurk running 26 activations. LOL

I really hope that the designers take note of your post. You bring up a lot of great points.

1. The v-set designers need to be cautious about the power level of the characters they are designing.
2. There needs to be a concentrated effort to balance the effectiveness of melee against non-melee.
3. Mouse droppings are still a powerful force in competitive play that needs adjusting.


kobayashimaru
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2015 11:49:53 PM
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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
Thank you for your Candide reflection,
and for the constructive criticism in the feedback - excellent, and clear format.

Also, for the 'abridged' version readers only, your "TL:DR" version, nicely sums up the gestalt in a single sentence -
that's the feeling people have of the state of 'competitive' play - that it becomes too much a TKO victory and optimisation min-maxer game only, with a lot of 'hobsons' choice' autoinclude points on pieces which become 'must include in squad to survive".

Thank you again,
and hopefully we see you on the customs board to share some mini or statcard you innovate BigGrin
jak
Posted: Monday, June 29, 2015 7:59:33 AM
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Joined: 10/17/2010
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Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
DarkDracul wrote:

3. Mouse droppings are still a powerful force in competitive play that needs adjusting.

I luv that term!LOL
think you created a new catch phrase

mouse droppings...... what a sh!tty moveFlapper
crazybirdman
Posted: Monday, June 29, 2015 11:02:29 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/21/2009
Posts: 207
Location: Southern California
Naarkon wrote:


Mouse droids
Having now played against a mouse droid dump in a competitive setting, I can definitely say that something needs to change there. There is just no reason for a mouse droid to be able to make a wall. To me, the obvious fix is to say that figures ignore smaller based characters for targeting (a very common rule in miniatures in general). Since most characters are medium-based, it wouldn't change all that much, and you are creating a universal and easy to remember rule rather than a specific errata. This has the added benefit of making the few large-based characters a little more playable.


yeah, I played my last game against this. I just won't play competitively anymore.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 2:04:51 AM
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Joined: 6/23/2010
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Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
crazybirdman wrote:
yeah, I played my last game against this. I just won't play competitively anymore.


There's been a lot of support for changing the floor rules to remove 2 point pieces from the game, after it was suggested a few months ago, and it seems quite feasible that the 2 point Mouse wall will be gone next season. Spamming 3 point Mouse Droids still might work for some squads, but it will be a lot less abusive without Gha Nachkt's rapport.

I still like Momaw Nadon's War Throat a lot too - it's a good solution against Mouse walls, and one of the best counter pieces that the v-sets have created. Mouse walls are definitely less prevalent than they were in WOTC days, but maybe slightly more common with the other 2 point pieces, the Geonosian Drones, gone.
thereisnotry
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:41:14 AM
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I think a Floor Rules change about 2pt pieces is definitely the way to go.

However, it only takes a few mice to make an mouse wall, which effectively stalls your opponent for a round or 2. I would still like to see an effect that allows bigger pieces to ignore smaller pieces when moving, and to displace smaller pieces when that bigger piece finishes its movement. It's probably never gonna happen though, so it might be a better use of your time to just keep Momaw Nadon in your reinforcements box.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:59:42 AM
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
TheHutts wrote:
crazybirdman wrote:
yeah, I played my last game against this. I just won't play competitively anymore.


There's been a lot of support for changing the floor rules to remove 2 point pieces from the game, after it was suggested a few months ago, and it seems quite feasible that the 2 point Mouse wall will be gone next season. Spamming 3 point Mouse Droids still might work for some squads, but it will be a lot less abusive without Gha Nachkt's rapport.

I still like Momaw Nadon's War Throat a lot too - it's a good solution against Mouse walls, and one of the best counter pieces that the v-sets have created. Mouse walls are definitely less prevalent than they were in WOTC days, but maybe slightly more common with the other 2 point pieces, the Geonosian Drones, gone.


If 2 point rapport is changed I think we will still see mouse walls. Gha-nakt becomes obsolete so now you have 12 extra points to round out plenty of mice. Most builds tend to run 4-6 mice in the base on top of bringing in Muun tactics broker and 6 mice for a total of 10-12 mice on average. So really with the change, you may be losing 1 activations when it comes to taking Gha-nakt. The real hit is to versatility and not having gha-nakt for gambit and baiting. For those reason we may see it less often at the top tables and not for the others IMO.

Will mice walls still be used? Absolutely, being able to strategically block pieces or provide cover with a 3 point piece with a 20 defense is to good to pass up. That is the main reason I was able to beat Lilly wan in both of our games at the Wisconsin regional. My BX's were quite literally glass cannons and fall fast once they are reached. If I didn't use the mice in this manner my bacon would have been cooked...
jak
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:40:18 AM
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Joined: 10/17/2010
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Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
re: mouse droppings
I don't think cost is the major issue.
It's mice being used/abused in way not intended in their original design.

classifying them as tiny,they neither provide cover, or impede movement, is the best answer.
atmsalad
Posted: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 8:55:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
jak wrote:
re: mouse droppings
I don't think cost is the major issue.
It's mice being used/abused in way not intended in their original design.

classifying them as tiny,they neither provide cover, or impede movement, is the best answer.

I am glad you liked this suggestion jak! :) It is more direct than reclassifying all small pieces and could be used in future designs. It may be better for Competitive play to have them still provide cover though(can be pretty helpful for melee squads... Just not impede movement.
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