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spent the last 2 Sat. using R&R figures, and DotF for the first time the following statements are not meant to viewed as negative to any person place or thing.
they are just the opinion of a life time Star Wars fan.(raise your hand if you saw Star wars(not new hope) in 1977)
back on track new windu- OMG, for the same cost as another windu, u get 3x, GMA PLUS vapaad mastery(17-20 crits at 3x dmg  but wait how about flurry  IMHO I think the power has not crept, but galloped on this dude. we have eliminated him from our casual play  vong fire breather-crab armor 2?, I understand their defensive abilities, but let's call it something else  , and it should be vulnerable to heavy blaster fire, like mounted weapon maybe  or heavy weapons. ~ wait till u c my custom of this guy~ bastila shan JM- her advanced battle meditation is a game changer, u now: need her in your squad or need to have a way to kill her quickly, or need a quad without CEs.that ability should push her cost up at least 20 points. we have eliminated her from casual play please don't attack and insult me if your opinion differs. for the most part I think the new stuff is cool
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I dislike the new Mace as well. He went toe-to-toe with my GMLS and won. How the hell does that happen?
It's not the only reason I dislike him, but it certainly doesn't help my image of him.
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Demosthenes wrote:I dislike the new Mace as well. He went toe-to-toe with my GMLS and won. How the hell does that happen?
It's not the only reason I dislike him, but it certainly doesn't help my image of him. Vader SotJ should pretty much always be able to go toe-to-toe with GMLS and possibly win, or at least cause both figures to die. Also, GMLS is a WAY overcosted piece (even in melee-vs-melee comparisons), so if we used him as the standard for designing figures, they would all be awful.  The trick with taking Mace down is shooting at him, then he goes down fairly quickly, especially when you consider his cost. He's quite powerful, but has a very serious weakness and is fairly reliant on luck to be worth his cost. I think the fuss about him will die down when people start see him not ruling the meta. Really don't understand complaints about Bastila, or why in the world you would ever ban her from any kind of play. I guess you guys just want OR to continue to suck. During regional play I didn't really consider her a threat. If she were strong enough to have to be banned, she would have dominated the meta, like GOWK did before SSM got errata. "If a piece is not broken at the highest level of competition, it isn't broken". The idea that you have to either play her or play a squad that can kill her quickly (or even really consider her at all) is verifiably incorrect. Don't really understand your complaints about the Fire Breather, either....
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I haven't played with her yet, but I think the new Bastila is AWESOME (and not just because she's a game-changer for my beloved, under-developed Old Republic!).
When I started playing this game back with Rebel Storm, you could field a few Uniques with some support and have a sorting chance. Now, a winning squad requires the right mix of fodder pieces, commander effects, and pieces (more likely than not non-Unique) to take advantage of those commander effects.
The risk that Bastila (or anyone) can take all of your commander effects away has the potential to shape squad design in a major way, giving some power back to the Uniques and other powerful pieces who can stand on their own, but maybe not stand up to a swarm of crappy non-Uniques powered by underpriced super-commanders. Take that, Whorm, Wedge, and Rieekan!
Also, if I'm not mistaken, since Bastila's effect is from a Force power, wouldn't the Vong be immune to it? If so, that would name the Vong a great counter to Bastila's counter squad, meaning that Bastila significantly raises the value of not one, but TWO factions, as well as most of the "stand-alone" Uniques in the game! How can you want to ban such an awesome piece?!? :)
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I agree pretty much with Echo. Bastila was MEANT to be good to boost the OR (b/c as he said before they currently suck at their position). Mace I think is a bit undercosted. I thought he should be probably at least 70 points. Reason why is b/c he has access to so much support (R2 and swap comes to mind). With access to GMA, he has a high chance of pulling off his Triple; and he has about 61/125 chance of hitting at least one crit during one Triple. Thats almost 1/2 chance.
However, I also agree with you on the firebreather. You pay a lot for pretty much two abiities: Crab 2 and Flamehtrower 40. Since he has savage that kind of evens it out -- and honestly, a ton a minis can do a ton of damage in one attack. Since many can do 30+ dmg thanks to various support (or even no support at all), the Crab Armor wont help much. Especially with its low def.
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Dan - I agree that pieces shouldn't be compared to GMLS, who is horrendously overcosted, but seriously, Mace is significantly undercosted. With such a high probability of doing 60 damage on one attack, and a high likelihood that he makes the rest of his attacks (including the Flurry), he's dropping 100 damage on someone if he Crits. To stack so many effects that just steamroll a guy on one figure whose cost is relatively low for what he does isn't a good thing.
And just because Mace won't rule the meta doesn't mean he's adequately costed. The meta right now is all about high-activation, mass-killing, movement-breaking, activation-controlling pieces that generally aren't extremely high-costed. I think Mace won't be used just because he's a bit expensive to build a good high-activation Republic squad out of, not because he's appropriately costed.
I'm still amazingly enthusiastic about the V-Sets and love most of the pieces coming out, but Mace is just too much.
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Demosthenes wrote:And just because Mace won't rule the meta doesn't mean he's adequately costed. The meta right now is all about high-activation, mass-killing, movement-breaking, activation-controlling pieces that generally aren't extremely high-costed. I think Mace won't be used just because he's a bit expensive to build a good high-activation Republic squad out of, not because he's appropriately costed. Not saying that Mace will rule the meta, but I think over time pieces like Bastila and the Mando CIO are going to wreak havoc on the current meta. Having 15 pieces in your squad that cost 10 each is great... until they have no commander effects and all they can do is whiff and hope for a crit. Heck, even a character like the YV FB, who can lay waste to those low-end pieces with no problem, has the potential to help re-shape the meta. use of cheap pieces is never going to go out of style, but if DotF is any indication, we may see a trend toward less dependence on commander effects and on pieces with, say, 30-40 HP or less.
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So your upset that we gave you a playable mace? Ok ban him, how much damage does he do normally assuming he gets one crit and all his attacks hit? 120 right? Wait are their any other pieces that can do 120 by themselves that you allow to be played? Go ahead and ban Rex with flobi's ce, Mara Jedi, lord vader, dash using general skywalkers ce, jaina sword and mandocaptain, gmls, and boba merc with whorm. Mace is a
Strong mini that a ton of people wanted. Would you of rather had yet another pos mace that gets shot up before he can do anything? We thought we'd break the mold a little and make a good mini. I think we've done that.
Now that i think about it ga and ban storm commandos with a czerka, echani handmaidens+atris+jabba, and dodonna just to be safe. Id hate for any combo to be too strong or playable.
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While not broken, I do think Mace is undercosted. That said, I will probably use Mace quite often just because he's simple and a no-brainer to use, much like GMLS, but I'm still thinking he should cost at least 70 or so. I love blunt force trauma squads, but hate running up against them, lol.
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I see no sense in changing the name of VCA 2. The Vong use Crab Armour. That is what they use.
The use I found for him was for setting off my bombs. Ooglith a Varactyl Wrangler and keep him behind the Fire breather at all times. My only problem with this mini is that in Wookieepedia, I think it looks more like a Knobby White Spider, just much, much taller. A shame we already have that as a recommended mini that will feature in almost every Vong squad from now until something equally awesome is made.
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You could always alter a KWS in such a way that it doesn't look like your Yammosk. Even so, Acklays look really cool all red/orange and breathing fire, lol.
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Demosthenes wrote:There's no need go go off the handle, David, I'm just saying that I think Mace is undercosted, not saying that he should be banned. Just because I'm of the opinion that Mace is excessive, not that we need to tear the meta apart. I will probably use Mace quite often just because he's simple and a no-brainer to use, but I'm still thinking he should cost at least 70 or so. I was referring to the OP banning a figure, not your comments. Costing is a incredibly difficult process, not only in this game but in every game. Mace is a strong piece that opens up republic more then just seeing yobuck in every squad
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Cad + Yularen =65pts; potential 120pts of damage.
Atris + Handmaiden + Jabba CL= 78pts; Potential 120pts of damage
Dash + Gen Skywalker= 75pts; potential 120pts of damage
Mara 45pts; potential 120pts of damage w/ lightsaber assault
TBSV + Czerka + Tarkin =53pts; potential 120pts of damage
Maybe the problem is comparing Mace to the lame, useless versions we got with WotC. Who plays them? I know a couple saw time early on in our game, but who plays them now except just to get a Mace on the board?
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Apart from Lord Vader, I don't think any melee piece that costs more than this Mace is competitively playable at the moment. Darth Revan SL is 62 points, but part of his cost goes towards his movement breaking. Pieces like the old Maces and Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, in the 65+ point range, just weren't that good, and Darth Bane isn't as competitive as he used to be. And even Lord Vader needs the support from Thrawn to make him really worthwhile.
This Mace doesn't have anything like sweep to kill multiple figures at once, like Lord Vader, and he'll struggle against a high activation or shooter based squad.
Mara Jade Jedi is a good comparison, and I think she is at least equitable with him - she can easily put 120 on something, and lightsaber block and parry don't work against her. She doesn't have as many defensive abilities though, which is why Mace costs 20 points more. He's also pretty comparable with Jaina Solo - she has more defence, especially when she's played with Wedge, but not quite as much offensive potential.
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I'm willing to suspend judgment until I play with Mace some more, but as it stands now, I think he's undercosted.
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May I point out (as per the OP) we eliminated the new Mace in casual play IE: just for fun. It's not fun to see your Sith Leviathan go down in one activation VS Mace Light and he still has a flurry and a normal attack left. Granted, lucky rolls, but still.
As for the Fire Breather - I like it. No Force Immunity. (Thought Bomb, ouch)
Bastila- agian: casual play. We also don't use Rieken or Super Steath for casual play(well, not a whole sqaud).
It's to early to see what Bastila will do in competition, let alone Mace Light.
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jak wrote:new windu- OMG, for the same cost as another windu, u get 3x, GMA PLUS vapaad mastery(17-20 crits at 3x dmg but wait how about flurry IMHO I think the power has not crept, but galloped on this dude. we have eliminated him from our casual play please don't attack and insult me if your opinion differs. for the most part I think the new stuff is cool I find it necessary to point out that the OP never used the word banned
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TheHutts wrote:Mara Jade Jedi is a good comparison, and I think she is at least equitable with him - she can easily put 120 on something, and lightsaber block and parry don't work against her. She doesn't have as many defensive abilities though, which is why Mace costs 20 points more. He's also pretty comparable with Jaina Solo - she has more defence, especially when she's played with Wedge, but not quite as much offensive potential. Actually, I think Mara has better defensive powers than Mace. She has a shooter-defense (Stealth), and a Melee-defense (Block). And if you add in Wedge, she gets Evade and Mobile. She is probably one of the few main reasons why NR is in the top five squads today. Compare her defensive powers to Windu's: LS Reflect (10) and Riposte. Now, I'll grant you that Mace is a waay better Melee beat; but LS Reflect is a rip-off power IMHO. Spend two force just to deflect damage; and IF you happen to make the save theres another 50% chance that the attacker will take damage....10 damage to be exact. Not ever worth it unless you're Vader LOTF. The only saving grace that keeps Mara down to earth is that she doesn't have Renewal -- wait, I forgot. She has access to force spirits.
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creme_brule wrote:TheHutts wrote:Mara Jade Jedi is a good comparison, and I think she is at least equitable with him - she can easily put 120 on something, and lightsaber block and parry don't work against her. She doesn't have as many defensive abilities though, which is why Mace costs 20 points more. He's also pretty comparable with Jaina Solo - she has more defence, especially when she's played with Wedge, but not quite as much offensive potential. Actually, I think Mara has better defensive powers than Mace. She has a shooter-defense (Stealth), and a Melee-defense (Block). And if you add in Wedge, she gets Evade and Mobile. She is probably one of the few main reasons why NR is in the top five squads today. Compare her defensive powers to Windu's: LS Reflect (10) and Riposte. Now, I'll grant you that Mace is a waay better Melee beat; but LS Reflect is a rip-off power IMHO. Spend two force just to deflect damage; and IF you happen to make the save theres another 50% chance that the attacker will take damage....10 damage to be exact. Not ever worth it unless you're Vader LOTF. The only saving grace that keeps Mara down to earth is that she doesn't have Renewal -- wait, I forgot. She has access to force spirits. Yes, but it's not Renewal 2 with MotF 2. We found (with our limited play-testing) that with a boat-load of force points we would re-roll at least one hit to try for that 20% chance for a critical.
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I'm not your playgroup, but Mace seems ideal for casual/fun games - I think he's maybe a bit too luck dependent to be ultra-competitive - he really does need crits regularly to justify his cost, and trying to roll crits and get flurries off is exactly the kind of thing that's fun in a fun game.
I can understand having a gentleman's agreement not to run Bastila in casual games - just because sometimes you want to try and run a really heavy CE squad for fun, and it's not that cool if you run up against Bastila.
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