Han, Rebel Hero, Aurra Sing, Lobot. Lobot would bring in a Gonk. Jedi had no chance.

Rebel Storm. Without it, there would be no others.

I'm not going to look at the numbers, but out of that 80 figures, not all of them were Jedi. A lot of that is C/UC cannon fodder, so it's not fair to compare a lot of that with the defelect/reflect number. I won't say they don't count, but it seems as if you expect everything to have a defense capability. I played my share of melee back then and I won't deny an amazing shooter could get the job done, but playing melee smart was just as effective. Maps might have been open but if you were playing them carefully it was never such a big issue. The only map i recall having issues with was the Death Star from RS starter set. Geonois that you mentioned we rarely used outside of scenario play, it was a bad map.

People I played with back in those years that stuck with the heavy shooters were generally poor sports, and unimaginative players in the first place as well. Play the big guns now and then sure.. but all the time? that just shows no creativity in squad construction. And still most people I knew had no issue playing a melee team, a lot of it was anticipating the opponent properly.

Btw the problem was never the cost of melee, perhaps just what you were getting for the cost on some pieces. The real issue is lowering the cost AND giving more abilities. My point earlier if not clearly stated was rolling both into one was a poor move. Knock a few points off and maybe existing melee at the time might have formed a better squad, or for their current cost give them another ability or two... but both make for a bad design. The JWM enabled lower costs and more abilities in one. That is my final opinion. Shooters got the same treatment eventually too.

Something funny about it too. There is another thread right now about the best Boba Fett, and a lot of people say that BF,BH is expensive for what he is. Maybe when you compare it to what other high cost shooters can do now, but nobody at the time would have said this. After the rest of the game caught up with lower costs and giving you more bang for the buck, there is just no going back.

I'll use a more basic example. Go compare the original Rebel Commando, and then the Veteran Rebel Commando. Is the original one overcosted? or was it fine till a game restructure? is the new one over equipped for what it is?

Funny you should say that, because there most certainly was someone saying exactly that in those days, me. And I wasn't totally alone in it, even if it wasn't the majority opinion at the time. Boba Fett BH was never the best shooter even in the game - let alone the best figure. I will repeat that, "was never the best".

In his own day, for the cost, Aurra was straight up better. Even during the Bounty Hunter days (when his set was the most recent before Alliance and Empire), Boba wasn't the best shooter. The Bith Black Sun Vigo, Han RH, and Aurra were all better more efficient uses of points. Now, with that said, Boba BH, R2 and Han RH or Boba R2-AM and a cheap secondary fig were competitive squads. But as soon as Alliance and Empire came out, Boba was really outclassed by Han Scoundrel, Princess Leia and Obi FS (you could give Boba BH R2-AM for the straight up comparison and while Republic had slightly better interference pieces in the JWM, Han was still better.)

Point for point, he was never efficient and that's the point people are making when they say he's "overcosted". Remember, despite this, he was still in the Gencon winning squad in 2007, as well as the 4th place squad. In 2008 he placed 2nd.

But that isn't as much a change in shooter power that has led to him being played less, it's that other options have become available that are less powerful, but more efficient. But don't pretend that they weren't available before either. People played Boba BH for the disintegration as a secondary ability, but first as a consistent damage dealer - even when it wasn't a ton of average damage. Today they can choose someone like him, or they can choose a cheaper figure with the same average damage (Dash is slightly less than him, and REx is about equal, Cad Bane is slightly higher) each of which is much more fragile as well. That's a willing trade off because the savings in points allows for better support. That's why you've seen less people playing Boba, but to say that it was the game that changed, just isn't true. He was always overcosted.

Boba BH is cost fine, but in his time frame when he was available. Flight itself is a costly and useful/powerful ability, then throw in disintegration which is a small 5% chance of happening, on top of being a mobile attacker, not very likely to ever miss, and with a direct damage ability as well as an avoidance? and all for 12 points more than the original? I will never he think his cost was too many points. I will also not tell you he is the best shooter, I wasn't ever implying that. I did mention the Best Boba thread, one where I give him credit but wouldn't put him as the best Fett either.

My point was people talking about him being expensive to use these days, which when compared to what others offer.. well yeah.. duhh..

Compare him directly to later incarnations and similar pieces, what they get, their stats and cost. They tend to have a better mix of abilities (arguable) and function for a lower cost, it's all more bang for the buck. Fett wasn't the best example for what I'd be referring to as power creep, but it came to mind quickly, mostly due to the other thread. I was just trying to point out how shooters and basically everything went down in cost, and up in performance. This is mostly in reference to uniques, but can easily be seen in non uniques as well. I just think lower cost and more capability didn't need to stack as far as character creation. just one or the other.

I brought up the Rebel Commando thing too, as its a more clear demonstration, further removed as far as sets go too, but still not an amazing example because the original RC's 14 point value could be better spent. But looking at that sort of figure you see a difference more easily.

And I could easily show you the counter examples that throw your point into a mess. We've done that, repeatedly over the years. Of course the new Rebel Commandos were better than the first, because the first wasn't good in the Rebel Storm days. So what? The Twilick Scoundrel wasn't any good either. Heck, the Wookiee Freedom Fighter and the Wookiee Elite Warrior made all other wookies pale in comparison, but what does that prove? You cannot demonstrate what you are trying to do without either A) including all 900 pieces and doing a mathematical comparison, or B) looking at competitively played figures from various eras, and understanding the intricacies of high level play choices. Picking one random piece does not prove your point.

For competitive play, melee has improved dramatically since the JWM. I'll give you that some unique non-melee figures also got power creep, as the game in general had that (and it had to have it for continued sales obviously). But to say it was equal to melee, is not accurate. I haven't done A, but I've certainly done B. And B will tell you, that a great many more melee pieces made it to the top tables post-CotF than before its release. Shooters may have gotten new figures, which allowed a greater variety, but I would argue that overall they lost power in comparison to melee figures over time as a whole. I can show you this with actual facts, look at the championship reports carefully over the years and compare numbers of different viable melee pieces, with the comparable non-melee pieces. The amount of viable non-melee increased, but not at the proportion of the increase in melee pieces.

The real question is whether or not melee ever fully caught up. I would say as a group, they did, but it required something more than just a costing change. It required new tricks (think lancer or Yoda on Kybuck for examples of one type of new trick). This is because there is an inherent flaw in the game from the very beginning (I call it a flaw, but I think you can understand it was simply part of the core rules), not because of over costing. It just happened that Rob overvalued HPs and high attack ratings for melee figures. But the JWM showed him a way to adjust, and he did over time. The melee pieces released post-CotF as a group, had more viable pieces than any of the first 5 sets.

I know making a totally new version of a character is easier and gives more freedom (so probably more fun), but I'd love to see those old Clone Strike/RotS era overcosted melee jedi brought back to life. The actual stat cards - not just a new card for the mini. A bonus that either is restricted only to those characters (Republic allies with a Force rating and printed attack greater than 10 who do not have Double, Triple, or Twin Attack gain...) or something that actually makes a high cost a bonus. Or both. Such as...

Combat Expertise: Whenever a lower-cost enemy misses an attack against this character, the enemy takes the full damage from the attack instead. You may move adjacent enemies one square before they take the damage.

Combat Superiority: +4 Defense, +4 Attack, +30 Damage versus lower-cost enemies. Lower-cost enemies may not be prevent or redirect damage caused by this character.

With those two, it would at least make Agen Kolar a Dash RS killer. 50 damage on the move, and if Dash had attacked and missed Agen a time or two, he'd be dead.

How do you cost a figure that grants those abilities? Beats me - that's why it's harder.

(I already suggested these in the V-set suggestions thread, but I thought it was appropriate to the current conversation.)

The abilities are powerful - but if restricted to "Republic allies with a Force rating and printed attack greater than 10 who do not have Double, Triple, or Twin Attack" it only applies to a handful (7) of crappy CS and RotS figures. And to be honest, those figures are so bad that I'm not sure if even those abilities are enough to make them competitive.

And, yes, it would be far easier to start from scratch. But think of the wasted paper - all these Clone Strike cards that are all but trash.