Compare Characters~between EPIC Windu & R&R Windu





Mace Windu, Master of the Order
Cost: 140 (+75)

Hit Points: 160 (+10)
Defense: 24 (+2)
Attack: 19 (+3)
Damage: 20
Special Abilities:

* Unique
* Melee Attack
* Quadruple Attack
* Greater Mobile Attack
* Flurry Attack
* Vaapad Style Mastery

Force Powers:

* Force 3
* Force Renewal 2
* Master of the Force 2
* Force Absorb
* Force Repulse 3
* Lightsaber Precision 2
* Lightsaber Reflect
* Lightsaber Riposte

Commander Effect:
Characters in your squad with a Force rating (including this character) do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Rarity:
Average Rating: 8.50 (4) My rating:



The stats that make Epic Mace better are in bold



Mace Windu, Legacy of the Light Side
Cost: 65 (-75)

Hit Points: 150 (-10)
Defense: 22 (-2)
Attack: 16 (-3)
Damage: 20
Special Abilities:

* Unique
* Melee Attack
* Greater Mobile Attack
* Triple Attack
* Flurry Attack
* Vaapad Style Mastery

Force Powers:

* Force 2
* Force Renewal 2
* Master of the Force 2
* Force Absorb
* Lightsaber Reflect
* Lightsaber Riposte

Commander Effect:
None
Rarity: Rare
Average Rating: 7.75 (8)

Seems 75 points doesn't buy you a huge upgrade. For 79 points, you could be getting General Skywalker, Jolee Bindo + R2-AM, which kinda brings R&R Mace into the same performance range, plus gives you another major threat in Anakin. I think R&R Mace was just very aggressively costed and steals the spotlight from Epic Mace.

I love the addition of Precision 2.
I totally missed that R&R Mace had Reflect. In which case, I do think that compared to the older Mace characeters, he is a bit undercosted. Which would bring the gap of the 75 pts a bit closer.

Things to keep in mind, the Epics weren't designed with skirmishes in mind. They were designed to be 100+ pieces to be used with one other piece. They won't necessarily match up with the standard pieces.

That said, let's really look at it here. Don't dismiss the stat upgrade. The +19 makes things a lot easier when you don't crit. Don't knock the 24 Def. 23 is still very good, and we don't have very many examples of 24 Def to easily recognize how good it is. And GMA Quad of course is much better than GMA Triple. More attacks means more chances of a crit. Add in Precision 2, this Mace has a much higher damage output. R&R has a base of 60 without a crit, and the Epic can do 120 without a crit. The Epic does not have to worry about crits for the majority of his damage output.

And then there is the CE. Probably where most of the points come from. Most people don't use Mobile Attack on Melee pieces for a fairly good reason, AoOs. Same reason people don't use GMA on a Melee Piece like on non-melee piece. Yes, the CE doesn't look like much for skirmishes, but put it in a format where you are pretty much gaurenteed to go against a heavy Melee hitter, even with Double/Twin over Triple, and look at it. This Mace can run up, hit his 4 times, and then run away, no AoOs. And with only 4 figures (including Mace) able to make more than 2 attacks on the move, that is a very powerful option on Mace in the Epic format. Add in whoever you team him up with, and your opponent will have some trouble getting their Triples/Double/Twins off.

And yes, the R&R Mace is aggressively costed, but not by much. I view him as a more offensive Loda. So, 70 isn't out of the question, but not much more. I don't think it is nearly as bad as many think. I encourage you to keep track of how many crits you roll in a game, even with Vapaad Mastery, and how much it makes a difference. And should he really be compared to the MOTF Mace or ROTS Mace?

Loda was a bit competitive at the time. I just see more parallels between Loda and Mace than Lord Vader and Mace. The better Renewal, the Reflect, the Twin vs GMA Triple, the Force Defense/Absorb, both followers.

This, to me anyway, is the key point of any of the discussions regarding the cost of the R&R Mace. This is a reason for people to use "any" Mace Windu. He certainly wasn't showing up in any competitive formats before. Perhaps we will see him now.

You have Vaapad confused with Juyo. Here's what Epic Maul got.

Juyo Style Mastery [Scores a critical hit on an attack roll of natural 17, 18, 19, or 20. Whenever this character scores a critical hit, make a save of 11; on a success, this character can make 1 immediate extra attack.]

That's Juyo, Vaapad is a form of that, however it's different. Specifically because the user adds his own enjoyment of the fight (dark side) to the strikes as well as turning the power and energy of the opponent into additional power in his strikes. Vaapad is extra power on top of lightning quick strikes. Come on LB, you are better than this.

I think I might have preferred that too. My friends and I just played earlier tonight with some of the new cards, and the new Mace spent his first offensive activation of the game running up to take out a fresh Unleashed Vader with 140 HP in three rolls of the dice followed by the two extra swings granted by Flurry taken out on Vader's nearby Secret Apprentice. It was a little disheartening.

I noticed that Bane is the only epic character limited to two attacks. Kinda surprised since the other epics have the ability to swing a minimum three or more times. I have tested him a little thus far. My guess is that with the armor and Djem So Style, he may be too powerful with a twin attack added. Just seems so far that when he went up against someone with a block and motf 2, its real hard for him to get a hit in, and he does gotta roll a save 11 to hit back for one swing. Just wanted to get your guys opinion?


Also, can someone refresh me on how avoid defeat takes place. Do you have to use it right when you hit 0 hp, or do you wait till you are done with the current battle?. Example (Epic Bane has 10 hp left, gets hit with 20 dmg, saves armor only once so he takes 10 dmg and is at 0. Do u gotta use avoid defeat right there, or do u use djem so style to hit back then use avoid defeat???)

Oh god, adding Armor into Djem So chains...

(head explodes)

Seriously, you will need pen and paper to keep track. As Damage Reducing abilities take place after "when hit" abilities like Djem So. The Resolving Effects section of the FAQ is a god send.