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State of the Faction. Mandalorians Options
Galactic Funk
Posted: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 4:34:05 AM
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I like the Mando's getting some sort of Molecular Shielding type ability that can't be nerfed by Bastila. However that doesn't solve all their problems does it? Don't they still need something else to make them more competitive?
DarthMalus
Posted: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 4:59:03 AM
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How about making it so that "Battle Resolve" would only be effective w/in six squares, so:

Battle Resolve: This character's commander effect may not be canceled w/in 6 squares of this character.

That way, mouse droids and "board wides" would still be nerfed by Bastilla, and the Commanders are forced to be in the heat of it (which is the Mando way).

And definitely only give it to 1 or 2 uniques. I think it would be effective enough on just 2 figures (providing they have decent CEs). Or maybe put it on a fig like "Mando Comm Specialist" (since they all communicate through their helmet comms which isn't very disrupt-able anyway) and he gives the SA to a Unique Commander.

Just my thoughts
Dimetrodon
Posted: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 9:53:17 AM
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Echo24 wrote:


I think a better way to improve them would be what Sithborg mentioned; a Gungan Shieldbearer type of character. Or maybe a commander that gives non-unique followers Molecular Shielding (the shields from the X-1 Viper Droid). That would be quite powerful so it would have to be cost correctly, but I think that would be cool. Giving out Parry or Lightsaber Resistance/Duelist would be good too, since they already have alright ranged defense (with most of them having Stealth, Cloaked, or Evade).


The idea behind what the Gungan Shieldbearer is supposed to do isn't quite a Mando tactic. Better to just give out shields instead if that is the desired effect more or less. And Molecular Shielding makes very little sense as well for many reasons.

countrydude82487
Posted: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 12:12:23 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
countrydude82487 wrote:
DieAndBeMetal wrote:
Dimetrodon wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:









The simplest way to do it would be to make it a Special Ability that grants Battle Resolve anyway, in the way that Ooglith Masquer grants Stealth. That way there wouldn't be a question at all about how it works with Bastila, and there's already precedent for it to work that way.

I'm pretty hesitant about giving Mandos the ability to be undisruptable, but giving that to a Unique would be ok, I think. They only get one instance of it that way to keep it in check.

I think a better way to improve them would be what Sithborg mentioned; a Gungan Shieldbearer type of character. Or maybe a commander that gives non-unique followers Molecular Shielding (the shields from the X-1 Viper Droid). That would be quite powerful so it would have to be cost correctly, but I think that would be cool. Giving out Parry or Lightsaber Resistance/Duelist would be good too, since they already have alright ranged defense (with most of them having Stealth, Cloaked, or Evade).



wait do you mean that you would like to see the abillity being granted from a unique, or only granted to a unique?
PErsonally i would like to see it on a unique, but granted to any mandalorian commander.

ALso i think a special abillity on a character like a mandalorian armorsmith that grants molecular shielding would be cool. IT would allow it not to be disrupted and it wouldnt break them if you kept it withion a certain range (like 6 ).
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 5:23:17 PM
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Not any commander. Twin Attack CE's should be disruptable. That's the thing you have to remember, the Mandos have really good CE's. Making them undisruptable is a very dangerous road to go down.

The big problem is, the Mandos are a shooter faction. People don't want this game to be shooter based, they want the big bad Jedi/Sith to be the main parts of the game. So, in the process of bringing Melee up, the Mandos are likely to get left in the dust. Bastilla hurts, no doubt, but I think it is the combination of Bastilla, Atris, Disruptive, Evade, Super Stealth/Cloak, swap, high Def/high HP beats with Lightsaber Deflect/Defense, Lancer, and Yobuck which is leaving the Mandos behind. The Mandos, like the Rebels, will never be a primarily Melee faction. And I think that is what will be primarily hurting the Mandos and the Rebels in design, as I am willing to bet that making Melee more competitive is slightly higher on their to do list than making Mandos competitive, even if it unconsciously.

They are getting a few figs that are good in Melee, but I don't know how much good it will do. I do think there is some stuff coming that will really help them, but the more I think about it, the more I question if it will fix nearly all the issue they are having. It may be just my crazy theory, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the issue with the Mandos is a bit more complicated than "counter Bastilla, and they are good".
countrydude82487
Posted: Thursday, November 3, 2011 12:04:54 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
Not any commander. Twin Attack CE's should be disruptable. That's the thing you have to remember, the Mandos have really good CE's. Making them undisruptable is a very dangerous road to go down.

The big problem is, the Mandos are a shooter faction. People don't want this game to be shooter based, they want the big bad Jedi/Sith to be the main parts of the game. So, in the process of bringing Melee up, the Mandos are likely to get left in the dust. Bastilla hurts, no doubt, but I think it is the combination of Bastilla, Atris, Disruptive, Evade, Super Stealth/Cloak, swap, high Def/high HP beats with Lightsaber Deflect/Defense, Lancer, and Yobuck which is leaving the Mandos behind. The Mandos, like the Rebels, will never be a primarily Melee faction. And I think that is what will be primarily hurting the Mandos and the Rebels in design, as I am willing to bet that making Melee more competitive is slightly higher on their to do list than making Mandos competitive, even if it unconsciously.

They are getting a few figs that are good in Melee, but I don't know how much good it will do. I do think there is some stuff coming that will really help them, but the more I think about it, the more I question if it will fix nearly all the issue they are having. It may be just my crazy theory, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that the issue with the Mandos is a bit more complicated than "counter Bastilla, and they are good".



i agree that bastilla is not thier only problem, and i wasnt saying give it to all commanders. I think a figure that grants it to 1 other commander would work well, as long as the piece granting the SA is a unique. even twin being undisuptible on 1 figure isnt that bad, and the piece is still easy enough to kill so it wont be a matter of it being on an unkillable piece.


SOme good melee pieces would be a good idea for the mandos but as you said i dont think they will fix the issue. Mandos already have several melee pieces and none of them are played because for the most part they are outclassed by similarly costed shooters. Now that being said i think if they got some good melee pieces and they get a commander that grants greater mobile to the melee pieces that would help.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, November 4, 2011 5:11:28 AM
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DarthMalus wrote:
How about making it so that "Battle Resolve" would only be effective w/in six squares, so:

Battle Resolve: This character's commander effect may not be canceled w/in 6 squares of this character.

That way, mouse droids and "board wides" would still be nerfed by Bastilla, and the Commanders are forced to be in the heat of it (which is the Mando way).

And definitely only give it to 1 or 2 uniques. I think it would be effective enough on just 2 figures (providing they have decent CEs). Or maybe put it on a fig like "Mando Comm Specialist" (since they all communicate through their helmet comms which isn't very disrupt-able anyway) and he gives the SA to a Unique Commander.

Just my thoughts


The only way I would support undisruptable mandos is with this option. When things go crazy they have to stay together to be effective.

Battle Resolve: This character's commander effect may not be disrupted within 6 squares of this character.

(of course we will have to add a second line, "Characters named Kyle Katarn ignore this special ability, and this character takes 10 damage for trying to fool him)
:)

But serious note I think they would even enjoy some sort of special Niche such as the Cassus Fett idea of flying armored mandos, or perhaps:

Jango Fett, Mandalore

Cost 52
HP 140
Def 22
Atk 14
Dmg 20
SA
Unique
Twin Attack
Flight
Bounty Hunter
Jedi Hunter
Mobile Attack
Evade
Dodge (When this character makes a successful evade save, you may immediately move him one square)
Missiles 30

CE

Unique Mandalorian Allies gain Dodge and Evade

Or Mandalorian Allies gain bounty hunter +4, sniper and mercenary

But the key as usual is more flavor and uniqueness whether the route is counter-disruption or something else equally befitting this warrior race, some more ideas/CEs/SAs:

Skilled: This character can use abilities and force powers that replaces attacks twice instead of once.

Dutchess Satine
Mandalorian Followers may reroll each failed save once.

Door Gimmick for the masses

Missiles 10 for non-uniques

Or to boost up this "shooty" faction how about:


Mandalorian Weapons Technician
SA
(any one or more of these)
Blaster Cannon Upgrade (Allies within 6 squares with nonmelee attacks that deal exactly 30 Damage gain splash 20)
Sniper Rifle Upgrade (Allies within 6 squares with Sniper gain vicious attack)
Missiles Upgrade (Allies within 6 squares with missiles 30 gain remote missiles [Replaces turn: 60 damage to 1 enemy within 12 squares regardless of line of sight; save 11)

Mandalorian Section Commander
SA
Mandalorian Allies within 6 squares gain advantageous defense and careful shot


I especially like the weapons technician piece, lots of potential fun flavorful pieces there.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, November 4, 2011 5:29:55 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
Not any commander. Twin Attack CE's should be disruptable. That's the thing you have to remember, the Mandos have really good CE's. Making them undisruptable is a very dangerous road to go down.


Bastila is the piece that changed the meta more than any other. In the process of lifting up non-competitive OR, it hurt non-competitive Mandos more than any other faction.

Mandos were not competitive before Bastila. After Bastila, allowing one CE per squad (even if it's Twin) to be undisruptable wouldn't break them at all. Probably not even make them competitive.
Mando
Posted: Saturday, November 5, 2011 9:46:15 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Not any commander. Twin Attack CE's should be disruptable. That's the thing you have to remember, the Mandos have really good CE's. Making them undisruptable is a very dangerous road to go down.


Bastila is the piece that changed the meta more than any other. In the process of lifting up non-competitive OR, it hurt non-competitive Mandos more than any other faction.

Mandos were not competitive before Bastila. After Bastila, allowing one CE per squad (even if it's Twin) to be undisruptable wouldn't break them at all. Probably not even make them competitive.


They weren't as competitive before DotF you mean. Jaster Mareel did change the competitiveness of the Mando's considerably. I think that allowing one CE to be indisruptable would be good. Allowing all of them is overkill and not good for the game. Bastilla squads might as well roll over and die at that point.
njarnagin
Posted: Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:38:51 AM
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In terms of movement breakers, I always thought it would be interesting to let certain figures start outside there 4 square starting zone. I think a Mando scout or covert ops piece would be great for this. Let a mando scout piece set-up ~12 spaces up the board. Give him speed 8, recon, cloaked, and maybe even override which should help survive.

Another approach could be some sort of "orbital drop": Perhaps a group of commandos start the game off the playing board, but once per game you can drop them next to some designated mando scout piece. So essentially, you sneak your cloaked commando piece to a safe spot behind enemy lines. Then drop your group of commandos next to him. Now, you have a small strike force ready to assasinate your opponents Yammosk/Bastilla/Mas/etc...
Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:02:38 PM
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Personally, Mobile Attack and Charging Fire are perfect Mando movement breakers. Sadly, those CE's aren't the most cost effective.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, November 7, 2011 12:30:45 AM
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actually i have always thought furious assault would be a great fit, If you put it on a high point mandalore (similar cost to ultimate or indomitable), that way you cant fit in boba to give everyone accurate and furious. and if you do your squad will have 1 main attacker and a bunch of fodder which will hurt. I know it can be a broken combo, but if you limit it to nonuniques or something like that it could give them some help they need.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, November 7, 2011 12:55:19 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
Personally, Mobile Attack and Charging Fire are perfect Mando movement breakers. Sadly, those CE's aren't the most cost effective.


i do agree at least with mobile attack being a good fit for them. WHen i say movement breaker i am thinking along the lines of something like Leia Rebel hero. To me that would work well for the faction and it fits well with them. even something like Maximilian Veers' commander effect would work too. i just think they need something like that. IM realy not suggesting something like r2 or lift or anything, i just think a commander or special abillity similar to one of the movement breaker commander effects would be cool. Heck even one like General Kenobi/rex 501st/gree, would be cool and add in a minor movement breaker. OO better yet add in Dutchess Satine With affinity for Republic Characters whose name contains obi-wan and Kenobi, that would sole the problem too and pottentially cause more.

Now as to the future state of them (as of vengeance) I can see quite well that they are getting well needed boosts in the commander department.
jak
Posted: Monday, November 7, 2011 2:18:31 AM
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countrydude82487 wrote:
something like this could help them:
Com Link : this characters commander effect cannot be suppressed.


Give it to someone who could dish it out to other commanders and it could be pretty interesting. Its not necesarily a counter to any one figure, but a good counter to the rising amount of disruption.


+3BlooMilk I like this idea,the same kind of thing could be use to relay orders for alot of factionsBigGrin
kezzamachine
Posted: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 7:54:29 AM
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I ran a Mando squad at our 150 Tourney in NZ and went a disappointing 2-3... I kinda took a punt on door control and ran a coupl'a Gunsmiths, my CIO turned out to be next to useless (as there was only one tempo control piece) and I didn't run death-shot as I wanted to try an accurate squad... anyhoo - I just didn't have the punch to compete, which is my choices rather than the faction.

However, one thing that we identified that has been touched on here, is the extreme limit to the predictability of the squad - as KFC said to me (a huge Mando fan), you know exactly what they're gonna do: run 6 and shoot... there's little outside of that. I've tried to rethink my squad to still have accurate but be able to be a little less predictable movement-wise, but there's just not a wealth of easy options here. Its that predicatbility that hurt me, and probably kills them. You know exactly what they can do and you can plan for it.
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