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Defense stat vs. defensive powers Options
Echo24
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2011 2:50:49 PM
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I'd like to get a bit of input from the community on a matter. I think that our game has seen the Attack value of pieces increase much faster than the Defense value, making the Defense value of pieces less and less important. What's the difference between 18 and 20 defense now? Not that much. What about the difference between 20 and 23 defense? It definitely exists, but it isn't a huge gap. Squads now regularly get characters attacking at +16 or greater, making the Defense stat less useful.

If you had the choice between a character with 23 Defense and no defensive special abilities or a character with 18 Defense and Parry, Evade, or both, which would you pick?

What about high hitpoints versus defensive SAs? If you had the choice between a character with 150 HP and no defensive powers or a character with 80 HP, Parry, and Evade, which would you pick?

Would you like to see the Defense stat matter more? Do you think that characters with more than 23 Defense is a good idea? Would you like to see more abilities that increase the Defense stat like Advantageous Cover, Lightsaber Duelist, etc?

I'm not a designer for set 4, the V-set currently in development, so this is me asking as a member of the community more than as a designer because I'm just curious. What do you think about the evolution of Attack vs. Defense in the game? Have attackers gotten too much lately so the aggressor is more likely to see good stuff happen than they should be, or should attackers get more boosts to be able to land more shots on those annoying pieces that can negate damage with a save? If you think there is a problem and you were a designer, how would you address this?

Simply put, what IS more important in the current game, and what SHOULD BE more important in the game; the Defense value on the card (and abilities that increase it) or defensive Special Abilities like Parry, Evade, etc.?
Sithborg
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:10:06 PM
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Joined: 8/24/2008
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The ways to boost Atk have definately outpaced ways to boost Def.

That said, I am hesitant to up a printed Def value over 23. Sure, have a few more Def boosts out there, but having played against a super Def team (GOWK + Atris + Def Synergy), it is very annoying. You make pieces too hard to hit, it becomes a long game. Remember why SSM is the way it is currently for official play. I'm not opposed to making more CE's that grant Def bonuses, but it is something that needs to be looked at carefully.

I think the bigger issue isn't Atk, but damage. Way to easy to boost damage, making those hits much more deadly. I think more damage prevention is the way to go. Not total damage negation, but more limited like Damage Reduction or Dark Armor.
adamb0nd
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:28:19 PM
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Great topic. I feel like sith is probably right on this. When you compared a 150HP piece vs an 80HP one, my first thought was "well... can i get this 150 piece access to an evade/mobile CE?". For me, high HP is more valuable than defense. Attack is so easy to boost, that its almost impossible to get a high enough hp to survive a loda/lancer sweep. I think if the v-sets started boosting DEF to compete with the godly high attacks, a few things would happen:
1. The game would take even longer to play.
2. More pieces would become useuless. Attack is the primary form of damage in this game. If you make it less useful by boosting DEF's, pieces who cannot adapt are phased out.
3. Attacks would eventually have to be boosted even higher to repair the problem. It would become an arms race.

I think that Siths idea is spot on. Take for example the clone trooper with the repeating blaster. Its such an awesome piece, every one is a huge fan of it, and its effective. But it never sees competitive play because no one will pay a 20+ cost for a 20 HP attacker who will die when the first 5pt storm trooper with +15 attack manages to hit him. You just can't afford to invest in such a costly piece when there are so many ways do deal 20 damage, some automatic... and no amount of DEF is going to change that.
Mando
Posted: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:51:01 PM
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I think probably the best way to deal with the problem of insane attacks is for ways to makes peoples attack go down (like Atris does) but not in a way that effects everyone, like Atris does. Also, Disruptive/ABM is a way to counter excessive attack since their CE bonuses go away. Not every faction has that, and that's the way it should be. I think the Mandos are suffering the most from the attack being so high, as there are no really good ways to deal with it. The factions that are being hurt most might need a boost like GOWK did for the Republic in granting the +4 to defense. I like the idea of there being more defense, but not on the printed stats. I'd like to see more ways to counter the attack bonuses factions recieve.
wannabe mexican
Posted: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:50:07 AM
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I agree that the huge damage output is the larger issue here. Having a high attack is good. Boosting Defense will just turn the game into more of a luck fest. While luck is good, I think squads should be rewarded with hits if they are built around boosting attack a lot, instead of losing because even at +18 attack they can't kill that guy sitting at 32 defense in cover.

I think damage is the issue. I build my squads knowing I will take hits while I close, and take damage. It is annoying when you get popped by a Naboo Pilot for 40 damage per hit if they have opportunist.

So I think we need more people giving out damage reduction and stuff like that. I would love for storm troopers and clones to have some kind of protection from their armour. I think the 16 defense was meant to simulate that, but then the clones came out with their measly 14 defense and I think that is ridiculous. DR 10 would be cool for them or something.
qvos
Posted: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:54:12 AM
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Great Topic! I personally like a piece with the 18 def with Parry, evade, ect. These days, its almost a sure hit with pieces like Cad Bane and others. With Bindo, Gowk, and others, the need to combine fire has been a thing of the past. Not totally of course, but, just to give an ex. We've played a few 250 pt games, and have even gone at least 5 games in a row with no combined fire. Evade, Deflect ect has become a premium. Until recenlty, Ive felt that the SIth were at a major disadvantage. Anyway, Great topic!
coffeebean
Posted: Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:37:41 AM
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i do enjoy a more defensive game, but lots of defensive abilities do slow the game. and if a player is "Rolling Well" it can make it almost impossible to kill a piece with evade, parry or soresu ect. i would like to see some higher printed defenses like 24, 25 even 26, as i dont think it would make a huge difference because rolling 2 higher doesnt break the game.

as for damage reducing abilities, im sorta for it. dr10 would make 10 damage figures almost useless and just drive up the need for higher damage.

what i would like would be an ability that would limit or cap the amount of damage or attacks a figure could take in a single turn or even give a temporary boost to defense.

something like:

Evasive Manuvers(sp?) (This character gains +3 defense each time he is hit by an attack until the end of this turn)

or

Battle Hardening (Damage this character takes from attacks is reduced to half rounded down to a minimum of 10)

these abilities wont avoid total damage but it lessens it and makes it more managable.
LeftiesWillRule
Posted: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:30:02 AM
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wannabe mexican wrote:
I agree that the huge damage output is the larger issue here. Having a high attack is good. Boosting Defense will just turn the game into more of a luck fest. While luck is good, I think squads should be rewarded with hits if they are built around boosting attack a lot, instead of losing because even at +18 attack they can't kill that guy sitting at 32 defense in cover.


There is always a level of luck involved, whether its the attacker rolling, or (often) the defender rolling evade/parry/lightsaber saves. If I have to pick between the two, I'd definitely go with the attack rolling; its much more tactical with cover, commander effect boosts, penalties, cunning/opportunist/jedi hunter, etc. Defensive abilities are much cheaper and sometimes used as crutches. There's little strategy to a 50% chance of preventing damage other than the split between melee and ranged damage. I agree 32 defense is a bit over the top, but there are few builds to get there, primarily based around GOWK and Atris. I'd liked to have seen more characters with higher defense, but now that we do have Atris, I think we've sealed our fate to use mostly defensive abilities instead of high defense.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, November 21, 2011 5:44:07 PM
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There are ways to boost defense with out ruining attacks. Highly specialized boosts like:
Quick Reflexes: +6 Def against attacks of opporunity and against attacks made with Gallopping Attack or Strafe Attack.
Room to Manuever: This character gets +4 Def against non-adjacent attacks if it has no cover.
Evasive: After this character is attacked, he culmatively gets +3 Def for the rest of the turn.

Super high defenses aren't necessarily bad. But to get those high defenses, they must be earned, either with a big combo or specific circumstances. Raising the base defense is a really dangerous place to go, made even more dangerous with Atris.

Attacks are the basis of the game. You make to many defenses against attacks, then you broke the game. Which is why I'm still really hesitant about GOWK coming back.
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