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SSM - Possibility of changing DCI ruling Options
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 4:45:38 AM
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I'm curious, why the talk of changing back te ruling on ssm? I think the v-set team is good at preventing meta lock down like when gowk was first released, and bastilla and the vong coordinator will both prevent him from becoming the beast he once was, pelleon helping to keep less survival too , but why change it? I personally don't mind... just would like to understand it is all. The republic doesn't really need the boost. Is it to help bring sith into the competitive factions?
Hinkbert
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 5:07:44 AM
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It was mentioned on the SHN podcasts (I forget by whom) that they are striving to have a game without erratas (which as it stands with the revert back to the original SSM, it has none). That way anyone can play easily and anyone can just follow what a card says without needing extra knowledge. So, I guess that's their reasoning. It's better to have counters to abilities rather than exceptions and rule changes.
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 5:35:03 AM
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Hinkbert wrote:
It was mentioned on the SHN podcasts (I forget by whom) that they are striving to have a game without erratas (which as it stands with the revert back to the original SSM, it has none). That way anyone can play easily and anyone can just follow what a card says without needing extra knowledge. So, I guess that's their reasoning. It's better to have counters to abilities rather than exceptions and rule changes.


I can see the value in that, but they did not get rid of the ruling on rigid (thank god), which kinda is counter to their argument. Would love to hear an official explanation on this.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 5:35:32 AM
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That makes sense. Maybe the new set will have better counters. More Makashi Style Mastery?
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 6:09:20 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
That makes sense. Maybe the new set will have better counters. More Makashi Style Mastery?


Ahh, yes. Time to break out Dooku again, finally. Makashi Mastery was the biggest issue I had with the errata, but I realized it was a necessary evil.

And really, no one was happy that the change and/or banning had to happen. I know a few have been wanting this to happen, it was just that before, we couldn't affect the game and meta like we can now. Obviously, playtests have shown that GOWK isn't a big issue in the current enviroment. I hope they are right.
adamb0nd
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 6:32:06 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
Makashi Mastery was the biggest issue I had with the errata, but I realized it was a necessary evil.


What do you mean by that?
AndyHatton
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 7:45:14 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Makashi Mastery was the biggest issue I had with the errata, but I realized it was a necessary evil.


What do you mean by that?


I believe he means that part of Makashi style (specificially the part that says it ignores Soresu Style) became useless with the eratta to SSM
komix
Posted: Monday, January 23, 2012 6:40:30 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Obviously, playtests have shown that GOWK isn't a big issue in the current enviroment. I hope they are right.


I'm not so sure that it is sooo easily beatable. And I am most certain, that playtesters didn't count in the scoring change into 3/2 points system. I've played with GOWK under new rules 5 times past this week and EVERY game took longer than 1 hour, and I only killed GOWK once.
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 4:38:35 AM
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So i wonder if we'll be getting a few more pieces with MSM and more competitive pieces with access to flamethrower or auto damage.
The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:12:56 AM
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komix wrote:

And I am most certain, that playtesters didn't count in the scoring change into 3/2 points system.


Well, you are indeed most certain. Most certainly wrong, we did indeed factor the 3/2 scoring into it.
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:29:53 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:
komix wrote:

And I am most certain, that playtesters didn't count in the scoring change into 3/2 points system.


Well, you are indeed most certain. Most certainly wrong, we did indeed factor the 3/2 scoring into it.

komix
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:34:59 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:
komix wrote:

And I am most certain, that playtesters didn't count in the scoring change into 3/2 points system.


Well, you are indeed most certain. Most certainly wrong, we did indeed factor the 3/2 scoring into it.


Mea culpa then. Too bad that, You only commented on partial of my post. Was it by any chance in purpose (I don't mean to start flamewar anyway)?

SSM back to old - card written rule I can bite. But GOWK....well that's a problem. He's seriously undercosted ( but I'm aware that this has been discussed here many, Many times). My main problem with him is his survivor skills. I was able to eliminate whole of opponents squad without him, games were taking much more than 1 hour, and opponents wouldn't still back down (and why should they? they had a character who in time and luck could kill the rest of my squad, taking and avoiding damage like a champ)

I'm still not convinced that we have enought direct damage dealers/SSM bypassers, but this may change, all in all we haven't seen all Vset 3 pieces, so maybe there will be some in there ;)

The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:43:58 AM
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komix wrote:
The Celestial Warrior wrote:
komix wrote:

And I am most certain, that playtesters didn't count in the scoring change into 3/2 points system.


Well, you are indeed most certain. Most certainly wrong, we did indeed factor the 3/2 scoring into it.


Mea culpa then. Too bad that, You only commented on partial of my post. Was it by any chance in purpose (I don't mean to start flamewar anyway)?

SSM back to old - card written rule I can bite. But GOWK....well that's a problem. He's seriously undercosted ( but I'm aware that this has been discussed here many, Many times). My main problem with him is his survivor skills. I was able to eliminate whole of opponents squad without him, games were taking much more than 1 hour, and opponents wouldn't still back down (and why should they? they had a character who in time and luck could kill the rest of my squad, taking and avoiding damage like a champ)

I'm still not convinced that we have enought direct damage dealers/SSM bypassers, but this may change, all in all we haven't seen all Vset 3 pieces, so maybe there will be some in there ;)



Well, if every squad could nerf GOWK, why even bother with this discussion at all? No one would play him. I think people too often look at a single game with GOWK and say oh look I didn't win. However, I have to look at how a GOWK player would do in any given tourney. Will he win some, yes, will he win some with 2 points, yes; will he win enough to unfairly blow through into the top 4/8....not likely at all.

Remember too, that 5 games is a relatively small sample size. GOWK is going to make the top 4 in a 6 man tourney. GOWK is going to make top 4 at certain regionals, can GOWK compete at the Championship layer in the hands of an average player...no. In the hands of a decent player, no...in the hands of a strong player? Well, the answer to that ultimately is was what most of my decision is factored on. That answer was maybe...just like any other Championsip squad
gwek
Posted: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 3:48:22 PM
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If you look at the pieces that have already been spoiled for the new set (as well as pieces from other V-Sets), I don't think there are clear counters to GOWK, but there are definitely strategies in place. I see at least three or four different elements.

Turn to the Dark Side: So far, the Seps and the Imps have this. Direct damage or the risk of flipping to your opponent's squad. If GOWK plays against a character with this and decides to try to ignore the damage, keeping a Force point in reserve is a necessity.

Crack Shot: With two pieces with Crack Shot (one as low as 7 in cost), the Mandos now have a definite role as GOWK-deterrent. As added incentive, Cassus Fett's commander effect is another thing where, if I were playing GOWK, I would be VERY wary of running out of Force points. The difference between 60 HP and 10 HP is a very good reason to consider not using Mettle.

Force Suppression: Two different factions (at least?) are getting this one. Doesn't do anything about SSM, but SSM on it's own isn't the problem. SSM + Mettle is the problem. With Force Suppression, GOWK's ability to use Mettle is cut in half.

Direct damage: There's already a ton of it in the new V-Set pieces we're seeing. Although a lot of them have saves, that also works against GOWK's Mettle in the long run.

Does any of that add up to a GOWK-breaker? No, probably not. He's still likely to be one of the most powerful pieces in the game, but if you're using any of these tricks against him, he gets harder to play effectively. And, tpo be honest, I'm a mediocre SWM strategist at best. :) I'm sure better brains than mine will come up with much better ideas.
komix
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:00:24 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:
Well, if every squad could nerf GOWK, why even bother with this discussion at all? No one would play him. I think people too often look at a single game with GOWK and say oh look I didn't win. However, I have to look at how a GOWK player would do in any given tourney. Will he win some, yes, will he win some with 2 points, yes; will he win enough to unfairly blow through into the top 4/8....not likely at all.


Oh come on, don't twist my words- I wasn't asking for a Ultimate Anti-Gowk character like new Fett or etc.
I'm just saying, that it takes a lot of time to kill this barve, and some times u can't beacause the player using him is hot roller (Mad ). Combo which scares me and kinda pisses me off is GOWk's Mettle and Motf2. Do I think he's overpowered ? No. Is he undercosted for what he does and his abilities? Hell yeah.
I've read today on gamers that in some situations judge can give u 3point win instead of 2 point. (Of course Gowk has been brought up) Is it true or have I missinterpeted that?

The Celestial Warrior wrote:
Remember too, that 5 games is a relatively small sample size. GOWK is going to make the top 4 in a 6 man tourney. GOWK is going to make top 4 at certain regionals, can GOWK compete at the Championship layer in the hands of an average player...no. In the hands of a decent player, no...in the hands of a strong player? Well, the answer to that ultimately is was what most of my decision is factored on. That answer was maybe...just like any other Championsip squad

Not every squad is gotta be anti-Gowk, just like not every one should be Bastilla-bulletproof. It's the game, stuff happens.
His ability to be the last man standing and being barely scrached is just annoying. Due to that games take way longer than 1 hour, and 2/3 points system (at least in my opinion, to which I am entitled) screwes the player playing against Gowk. However, this may change, I will have to look closely to this system when I will have some time.


gwek wrote:
Does any of that add up to a GOWK-breaker? No, probably not. He's still likely to be one of the most powerful pieces in the game, but if you're using any of these tricks against him, he gets harder to play effectively.

Like I mentioned above, I'm looking forward to find other ways to deal with him or partial at least :)

Cheers,
I hope I didn't offend any1.
gwek
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 4:03:04 AM
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I can't speak for others, but I wasn't offended in any way. In fact, it made me take a look at what we know of Vengeance in light of GOWK/SSM... and I liked what I saw.
Echo24
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 4:40:18 AM
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gwek wrote:
If you look at the pieces that have already been spoiled for the new set (as well as pieces from other V-Sets), I don't think there are clear counters to GOWK, but there are definitely strategies in place. I see at least three or four different elements.

Turn to the Dark Side: So far, the Seps and the Imps have this. Direct damage or the risk of flipping to your opponent's squad. If GOWK plays against a character with this and decides to try to ignore the damage, keeping a Force point in reserve is a necessity.

Crack Shot: With two pieces with Crack Shot (one as low as 7 in cost), the Mandos now have a definite role as GOWK-deterrent. As added incentive, Cassus Fett's commander effect is another thing where, if I were playing GOWK, I would be VERY wary of running out of Force points. The difference between 60 HP and 10 HP is a very good reason to consider not using Mettle.

Force Suppression: Two different factions (at least?) are getting this one. Doesn't do anything about SSM, but SSM on it's own isn't the problem. SSM + Mettle is the problem. With Force Suppression, GOWK's ability to use Mettle is cut in half.

Direct damage: There's already a ton of it in the new V-Set pieces we're seeing. Although a lot of them have saves, that also works against GOWK's Mettle in the long run.

Does any of that add up to a GOWK-breaker? No, probably not. He's still likely to be one of the most powerful pieces in the game, but if you're using any of these tricks against him, he gets harder to play effectively. And, tpo be honest, I'm a mediocre SWM strategist at best. :) I'm sure better brains than mine will come up with much better ideas.


All really really good points.

GOWK is just going to be a piece that you have to consider when you're making a squad now. In the same way that you have to consider "What if I play against Bastila?" or "What if I play against Lancer?" The answers to those questions are "Play a squad that either has Force Immunity or one that doesn't rely too heavily on CEs" and "Play a squad with enough HP to survive a strafe or two while preferably having characters that can damage the Lancer on its turn, or pieces that can catch up with the Lancer and kill it". The answer to GOWK is "Anything that hurts using Force Points (Force Immunity, Force Suppression, Force Absorb, Force Defense, Sever Force) or anything that prevents him from using SSM in the first place (Crack Shot, direct damage). Alternatively, if you just fire enough shots at him starting early enough you can eventually drain him of Force Points".

If you are playing a squad without any answers to GOWK, yeah, you'll do poorly. This is true of many, many other pieces in the game. If you play a swarm squad against the Lancer, the odds are stacked pretty heavily against you. When the Lancer came out (and Yobuck too), players that liked low-HP swarm squads had to adapt. Now players that don't have GOWK answers (mostly squads with nothing to get past SSM or Mettle which also have not many attacks) are going to have to adapt in the same way.
adamb0nd
Posted: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 6:12:39 AM
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I'm actually excited about bringing back the old SSM. For one, it makes Flobi so much better (he's one of my favorite pieces, and i feel less guilty playing him than GOWK). I think it shows that the V-sets have broken the mold of the game. I like that we are in, and continue to move into, a time where all factions can be played competitively. I think the game is only going to get more interesting.

Now I just can't wait for a new beatstick dooku ;)
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