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V-Set critigue - what happened to Celeste? Can we get an new one? Options
countrydude82487
Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:55:25 PM
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i will add in my 2 cents.

I like her how she is and agree with bill that she is balanced and would have been either too powerful or too expensive and never seen any play if she were made differently. Your way of making her more powerful is not easy to do. My favorite character from the books and universe is Jax Pavan(which the v sets haven't done yet) he was made by WOTC and i hated the piece, but i made my own custom of him and he was hard to balance. You cannot have every representation of a character in 1 it makes them either ecost too much or over powers them.

now that being said i think although we dont need another conventional version of her she would be an interesting piece for a future Epic set.
Neifi
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:28:47 AM
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Well of course people are going to like and play the R&R one:

Can’t be targeted by ranged
24 Def against Jedi anytime
17 Att and 90 Dam on non-activated Force-Users within 9 squares
Can auto-kill under 30HP pieces, and gets a Rakghoul Reinforcement when doing so
All for just 51 cost.

A Jedi with up to 180 HP and limited melee Defense could be gone as soon as the next round starts, possibly even adding a Rak to her squad if they are under 130HP

Add in a Reek or KraytD and you have an additional piece that can run across the entire board for 16 Att at 50/60 Dam (Respectively) – that means that a Jedi could have a full 200 HP and most likely not activate more than once after their initial confrontation begins (where a 140-150 HP piece may not even get to activate one time).

Or think about her with a Rampaging Wampa – they’re at a charging 15 Att and 80 Dam if both hits land. That’s up to a 170 HP Jedi possibly never having the chance to activate, and likely being auto-gone on the next round if it does manage a turn.

She is an extremely easy piece to use that has pretty massive damage output and makes some already strong pieces become fairly huge. Who wouldn't like that?


Then, (as Billiv15 stated) put her with Exar and just forget about it – probably not even worth playing the game

~ Reek = 140HP/17D Board Charging 60 damage at 20 attack (70 Dam at 24 Att against Jedi)
~ KraytD =200HP/17D Board Charging 70 damage at 20 attack (80 Dam at 24 Att on Jedi)
~ RWampa = 70HP/14D of Ambushing 80 damage at 19 attack (or 90 Damage at 23 Att on Jedi)
~ Gundark = 90HP/18D of stationary 120 damage at 20 attack (or 160 Dam at 24 Att on Jedi) ~ while still a respectable 30D/20A or 40D/24A if forced to move
~ Nexu = 50HP/16D of Ambushing 60 damage at 15 attack (or 80 Dam at 19 Att on Jedi)
And her specialty,
~ Rakghoul 30HP/17D of Ambushing 80 Dam at 13 Attack (90Dam at 17 Att on Jedi) & duplication on kill

While whatever you see is on top of the base Celeste at her 110HP/24D Ambushing 17Att/90Dam on Jedi (auto-kill on >30) and Kun’s 180H/23D standing 19Att/90Dam or moving 19Att/40D on everyone (but don’t kill him cause then you got the -1 Renewal)

Pure testosterone beatsticking gameplay – and you can do it even if you kind of suck at strategy. Other then the Sith Rage on Exar, the occasional Alchemy and some re-rolls, you probably wont even have to worry about remembering to use any force points
TheHutts
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:37:53 AM
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Neifi wrote:

Then, (as Billiv15 stated) put her with Exar and just forget about it – probably not even worth playing the game

~ Reek = 140HP/17D Board Charging 60 damage at 20 attack (70 Dam at 24 Att against Jedi)
~ KraytD =200HP/17D Board Charging 70 damage at 20 attack (80 Dam at 24 Att on Jedi)
~ RWampa = 70HP/14D of Ambushing 80 damage at 19 attack (or 90 Damage at 23 Att on Jedi)
~ Gundark = 90HP/18D of stationary 120 damage at 20 attack (or 160 Dam at 24 Att on Jedi) ~ while still a respectable 30D/20A or 40D/24A if forced to move
~ Nexu = 50HP/16D of Ambushing 60 damage at 15 attack (or 80 Dam at 19 Att on Jedi)
And her specialty,
~ Rakghoul 30HP/17D of Ambushing 80 Dam at 13 Attack (90Dam at 17 Att on Jedi) & duplication on kill

While whatever you see is on top of the base Celeste at her 110HP/24D Ambushing 17Att/90Dam on Jedi (auto-kill on >30) and Kun’s 180H/23D standing 19Att/90Dam or moving 19Att/40D on everyone (but don’t kill him cause then you got the -1 Renewal)


If it's that good, then why isn't everyone doing it? Because:
i) Exar Kun + Celeste Morne costs 135 points, which doesn't leave room for much else in a 200 point game.
ii) Savage is a big limitation and can be manipulated - eg you can lure a piece out into the open
iii) Some of the savage pieces are large base, also a limitation.

Exar Kun and Celeste is a pretty fun combo, as is Celeste Morne and a Sith Leviathan, but it's not something you'd bring to a competitive tournament, because of those limitations.
Neifi
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:17:25 AM
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TheHutts wrote:

If it's that good, then why isn't everyone doing it? Because:
i) Exar Kun + Celeste Morne costs 135 points, which doesn't leave room for much else in a 200 point game.
ii) Savage is a big limitation and can be manipulated - eg you can lure a piece out into the open
iii) Some of the savage pieces are large base, also a limitation.

Exar Kun and Celeste is a pretty fun combo, as is Celeste Morne and a Sith Leviathan, but it's not something you'd bring to a competitive tournament, because of those limitations.


i) ~ you get a couple RWampa's, Gundarks and/or Rakghouls plus as many Rakghouls as Celeste and whatever you bring along can create. After a couple rounds, you could have 10+ pieces because of the Rak multiplying.

ii) Agree - but whatever you use to pull it out is dead instantly I imagine; and if its a Reek or KD it probably isnt getting taken out even if in the open.

Why don't people use it? Probably kind of boring to people who know how to play the game, while being just annoying to your competitors in casual play. The group could just sit there huddled together while anything that hits open ground is likely dead (and possibly adding pieces to the other squad)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:20:59 AM
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Neifi wrote:
TheHutts wrote:

If it's that good, then why isn't everyone doing it? Because:
i) Exar Kun + Celeste Morne costs 135 points, which doesn't leave room for much else in a 200 point game.
ii) Savage is a big limitation and can be manipulated - eg you can lure a piece out into the open
iii) Some of the savage pieces are large base, also a limitation.

Exar Kun and Celeste is a pretty fun combo, as is Celeste Morne and a Sith Leviathan, but it's not something you'd bring to a competitive tournament, because of those limitations.


i) ~ you get a couple RWampa's, Gundarks and/or Rakghouls plus as many Rakghouls as Celeste and whatever you bring along can create. After a couple rounds, you could have 10+ pieces because of the Rak multiplying.

ii) Agree - but whatever you use to pull it out is dead instantly I imagine; and if its a Reek or KD it probably isnt getting taken out even if in the open.

Why don't people use it? Probably kind of boring to people who know how to play the game, while being just annoying to your competitors in casual play. The group could just sit there huddled together while anything that hits open ground is likely dead (and possibly adding pieces to the other squad)




They don't see play because you can use any good sqaud with activation control, wait you out and then pick your stuff off, or swap in end of round and kill celeste and game is over. It would seem like it is overpowered in theory, but not in real game situations. Give the V-Set designers credit on the amount of test playing and balancing they do.
Neifi
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:44:38 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
They don't see play because you can use any good sqaud with activation control, wait you out and then pick your stuff off, or swap in end of round and kill celeste and game is over. It would seem like it is overpowered in theory, but not in real game situations. Give the V-Set designers credit on the amount of test playing and balancing they do.


I dont know, I think they can get past the activation fairly easily.

Exar, Celeste, 3x Raks, 4 Uggies and a 5pter ~ ya got 10 there, and will be gaining more/replacing lost with the disease.

Don't have to worry about them picking off Celeste either; she cant be targeted - Cloaked, remember?.

And I had actually miscalculated the numbers above on the Rakghoul - they would be at:
~ Rakghoul 30HP/17D of Ambushing 120 Dam at 13 Attack (Ambushing 150Dam at 17 Att on Jedi) & duplication on kill

Also, if you were worried about them drawing the Rakghouls out with savage, Exar can even set an easy cage for them by sacrificing one activation for a Varactyl Wrangler. Transfer Essence would mean Exar sends them charging only when he wants. At up to 120-150 damage when they charge though, I feel sorry for the sucker who has the job of drawing them out ~ and the fact that there would likely then be two standing there after the first charged means whoever was hiding, waiting for it to come out is now in a similar boat...
TheHutts
Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012 7:02:41 PM
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If you have someone standing more than 6 squares away, but less than 12, the Rakghouls would have to come and base them, but not be able to attack them.

I think that squad would do OK against some things, like a mediocre Jedi squad with low activations and with no movement breakers, but 10 activations isn't many, and all the pieces are pretty fragile against melee. For starters, I think you'd have major problems with:
- a Lancer squad
- a Lord Vader/heavy hitting black and blue squad
- a heavy shooter squad

I definitely don't see it as a top-level squad.
markedman247
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 8:27:12 AM
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I personally would drop Exar in his living form for either Naga Sadow or Marka Ragnos with Sith Alchemist. You need the Sith Sorcery to help limit the activations and could add SAlcs (Sith Alchemist) to boost the damage of the Raks ( and, possibly Naga Sadow as he doesn't have a lightsaber).

Granted I haven't played a game since DotF came out.
Sithborg
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:05:33 PM
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Thing about that squad. It requires the opponent to play Living figures. Not even Lancer, face any real Droid squad, and it's over. Second, Ambush is not that reliable. You need to win init and be within 6. So many ways to screw that up with just positioning. Which is where the activation disadvantage comes in. Which screws up Exar's Momentum. And Rakghoul Disease isn't that reliable. And if you face Disruptive or Bastilla, then that's it.

The reason it isn't played isn't because players don't think its fun. If it could win, it would be seen. There have been some fairly decent competitive tournaments, and you don't see Exar and Celeste. The closest was an Imperial Celeste squad. Rakghouls aren't the main beatstick in your squad, they are fodder killers so they can swarm. Even with Celeste, Rakghouls are a support piece. You can't afford to spring on Exar and all the support Celeste needs to be effective AND bring in Rakghouls in.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 11:49:08 PM
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I built a squad on Bloomilk called 'Thugly'; it was the most successful Celeste squad I have built so far. It does pretty well for an all melee squad, winning about 60% of games played and generating a little over 4 rakghouls/ game despite not having one in the base build. It has some glaring holes it it such as no defense against the lancer and, at best, could only be considered tier 2.

She is by far my most favorite piece of all of the Vsets, and I am always interested in finding a competitive build for her if possible.
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