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does anyone have a formula to give a squad a "combat number", considering avg att., avg. def., total hit points, and total potential dmg per round(assume no crits)??
EX.( THP/people in squad) + (TPD/people in squad) +avg att. + avg def.
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That would be great if we could quantify that. Unfortunately there are other factors in squad quality and effectiveness that aren't measured by the factors you mentioned. Just off of the top of my head some of the unmeasurables would be movement breakers, multiple attackers (Yobuck and the lancer), defensive abilities (superstealth and Soresu Style Mastery), and stuff like tempo control and door control. Oh yeah, and force powers.
I agree though, that if someone could incorporate all of that into a number, it would be useful. Unfortunately, I'm not that person... I'm a truck driver, and the numbers I deal with are in addresses and the speedometer.
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Are we just talking about averages? And what does THP stand for? As odd as it sounds if I can fully understand what were talking about here I might bring it up with my physics teacher, shes not in to gaming and stuff but shes really cool and would probably help  . But also theres the unaccountables mentioned above, unless we designate a quantifiable digit for each individual force power/special ability to add or subtract from the squad total. (EX, force repulse 5 gets the rating of 9 on a scale of 1-10 and jedi mind trick gets a 2)This sounds like it would be fun to take on.
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THP=total hit points
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Your posted formula does not take into account squad synergies (IMO the most important part).
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that was just an example to try to explain what I was trying to get across.
I'm looking for some ideas to consider more factors.
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@Jak, I think this is a great idea! lets bounce some thoughts around the community then. As someone eloquently phrased it earlier, it'd be great to put all that stuff into an approximate number. Im sure there are more than a few programmers/mathematicians amongst the fans here, itd be cool if they could chime in with some differentials/exponentials rough models. If we break it down, the problem might be easier to solve. I roughly guess a model could be deduced in a number of ways: trial and error (the present system), a logarithmic/limit equation (so for values between 0-1, with all squads being assigned values of competitiveness between 0 and 1) or as an n-th power exponential variable model. Im also sure matrices would help, somehow... probably in giving easy comparisons in table form. I havent done maths in a while, but id imagine youre on the right track with the four variables you have so far.  Your present model, for example; a + b + c + d = x, where x is the 'competitiveness' value. Others have suggested taking into consideration turn structure (which i believe is a simple exponential to represent turns, n(n+1) = x). Most games have an upper limit of 6 turns, which you could factor into your limit equation. NB: this link has some handy maths in it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_%28mathematics%29Im thinking that some of the variables will be coefficients which modify a base assumed variable. --- some key observations about minis games: We will have to test any proposed model to ensure its accuracy. Generally, the more activations, the more competitive the squad. The inverse is usually true (exception; CE's). Of turn structure, generally it is a fibonacci-biased game (IE Player 1 wins more often than Player 2) The higher the total number of attacks, the more competitive the squad. The higher the number of force points, the more successful is the squad. The higher the total count and spread (ie unique powers) of force powers, the better the squad. Evade squads are more competitive than non-evade squads. Abilities like force renewal, im yet to know if they are more or less competitive relative to a standard squad.
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So,
(Total HP divided by number of units in squad) + (Total Number of Attacks in squad, divided by number of units in squad) + total avg. attack of units in squad + total avg. defense in squad = competitiveness rating.
I think that CEs modify the total number of attacks, and perhaps total average movement or total force points.
So,
CE modifier x (Total avg. movement of squad + Total HP/squad size + Total Attacks/squad size + Total avg damage + total avg attack. + total avg defence + total force points + total force power diversity x number of total force users in squad) + total S.A diversity = competitveness rating.
CE's would be a coefficient for the abilities they modify, and where a CE produces an advantage without modifying any of the current baseline stats, it becomes its own variable.
I also wonder if tracking a unit/squad combo's track record is important.
That is to say, squads comprised of Rebel Storm-Only figures i predict would be less competitive than squads comprised of say Universe or The Dark Times sets, or squads comprised of the best pieces from each set.
The "older" a squad is then, the less competitive it would be.
Does anyone play/know if squads without ANY CE's are competitive compared to squads that do use CE's?
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A few things I think should be considered.
Defense Value: This would be related to a units hitpoint x Defense/20 with an additional factor for other defenses which can reduce damage taken. A piece with Parry and Evade should effectively have twice the listed number of hp because it can negate damage half the time. The "/20" is in there so Defense can be factored in (DEF 20 is a lot more protection then DEF 10 but more on this when looking at attack) and also because it can represent how many 20 damage hits a unit can take. Total hp for a squad may be helpful to know but doesn't always give a clear picture; having 120 hitpoints means different things if its in a single unit or broken into 2,3,4,6, or even 12 units. How often to 10 extra hitpoints mean a mini survives just one more attack before dying to an overkill attack.
Attack Value: This should be expected damage against a fixed Defense score. Primary attacks would always count full (except maybe for heavy weapons) but the value of multiattacks may be different depending on how likely those attacks are to come.
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@StevenO, Great Idea on the defense value! Victory Points and the Reserves ability are also puzzling in terms of this competitiveness rating; care to share any insights on them StevenO? The reason i liked a differential limits equation was so that not only could a person compare squad types, but they could also predict in which turn they could expect to win or lose/find weak points and minimize them. I think movement speed, particularly with Intuition, Surprise Move, Mobile/Greater Mobile attack and Charging Fire/Ambush Special Abilities is a deciding factor. I'd predict lancer squads to receive a fairly high rating, as well as GOWK-squads... Maybe we could make two separate models: offense and defense competitiveness ratings (GridIron much?)
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@kobayashimaru & StevenO,
Great Ideas from both of you guys! Im really enjoying trying to figure this out! Now only if my trig class was this fun...I like the idea of a 0-1 rating for squad, as well as doubling and or multiplying amount of hitpoints per character based on defensive abilities. So there, we have a handful of abilities close to solved, in the sense we now have a direction to take them to assign numerical values to them. I think the way to figure in CE's may be difficult, as its opinionated. I still think the idea of assigning the 'unique' features (SA's/CE's) of figures with a multiplier to add to the individual figures total effectiveness. (This may be to complicated as now im breaking it down in to individual characters then those would need to be calculated then mixed in to a numerical pool to solve the whole squad) So just as a very rough example lets go with this. GGDAC has an amazing CE, probably one of the better ones, lets give him a .075 multiple to the figure, Rieekan is also game changing, lets give him a .085, where as Lando from RS, with a near useless bonus for bespin guards, lets assign him a .009 as practically the worst CE. Im trying to throw out ideas right now, im only a junior in high school and pretty mediocre at math but im trying to get a grasp of all this. I have a few ideas for equations but I dont want to throw nonsense out there lol. Let me know what you guys think of this. Also I say we should get a base 100 point squad with a few variables to start picking apart and we can see how each of us go about rating them. Ill drum up two diverse squads (one with and one with out synergy) so maybe we can figure out how it plays out instead of just on paper, may be to early but whats the worst that can happen!
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Heres a squad we can start with, I think that this is doable, we just need to quantify each and every ability, which is quite a task. In my opinion we need to get a mathematical rating of each character then figure that in to a squad equation.
Squad Characters 100/100
Cost Name HP Def Atk Dmg
42 Silri 110 19 13 20 20
33 Rancor 100 18 8 20
13 Gotal Merc. 30 14 7 20
12 Gha Nachkt 30 13 3 10
Silri 42
Counts As: Silri
Hit Points: 110
Defense: 19
Attack: 13
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Unique
Nightsister (Counts as a character whose name contains Nightsister)
Zann Consortium
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Empathy (Allies with Savage within 6 squares lose Savage)
Lightwhip (This character counts as having a lightsaber. This character's attacks and damage from her attacks cannot be prevented.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Force Powers
Force 3
Drain Life 3 (Force 3, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; 20 damage to target living enemy and to each living enemy adjacent to target, save 11. Remove damage from this character equal to the damage dealt.)
Rancor 33
Hit Points: 100
Defense: 18
Attack: 8
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Savage (This character must end its move next to an enemy if it can and does not benefit from commander effects)
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on its turn, remove 10 damage from it at the end of that turn)
Speed 8 (Can move up to 8 squares and attack, or 16 squares without attacking)
Triple Attack (On its turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Gotal Mercenary 13
Hit Points: 30
Defense: 14
Attack: 7
Damage: 20
Special Abilities
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Intuition (Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can immediately move up to his speed before any other character activates)
Mercenary (This character can move only if he cannot make an attack from his starting space)
Gha Nachkt 12
Counts As: Gha Nachkt
Hit Points: 30
Defense: 13
Attack: 3
Damage: 10
Special Abilities
Unique
Trandoshan
Rapport (Non-Unique Droids cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 10 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Repair 10 (Replaces attacks: touch; remove 10 damage from 1 Droid character)
Special Abilities in squad
Trandoshan(No numerical modifier needed)
Rapport (Non-Unique Droids cost 1 less when in a squad with this character)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on his turn, remove 10 damage from him at the end of that turn)
Repair 10 (Replaces attacks: touch; remove 10 damage from 1 Droid character)
Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
Intuition (Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can immediately move up to his speed before any other character activates)
Mercenary (This character can move only if he cannot make an attack from his starting space)
Savage (This character must end its move next to an enemy if it can and does not benefit from commander effects)
Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies)
Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent)
Regeneration 10 (If this character doesn't move on its turn, remove 10 damage from it at the end of that turn)
Speed 8 (Can move up to 8 squares and attack, or 16 squares without attacking)
Triple Attack (On its turn, this character can make 2 extra attacks instead of moving)
Nightsister (Counts as a character whose name contains Nightsister)(No numerical modifier needed)
Zann Consortium (No numerical modifier needed)
Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Empathy (Allies with Savage within 6 squares lose Savage)
Lightwhip (This character counts as having a lightsaber. This character's attacks and damage from her attacks cannot be prevented.)
Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares when choosing targets)
Force Powers In Squad
Drain Life 3 (Force 3, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; 20 damage to target living enemy and to each living enemy adjacent to target, save 11. Remove damage from this character equal to the damage dealt.)
The more I look at this the more I find that we need to look for. For example, Gha has rapport, which in some squads is a huge ability, but in this squad does nothing. Therefore im torn between weather or not we need to figure out the number assigned to each ability per squad or just one solid number for a character. Because otherwise gha may be regularly skewed as being good by him self. None the less I think we need a solid stationary value for the ability's.
Also as would be expected I think we need to subtract from a total over all for abilities like savage and mercenary as they hinder the character rather then help.
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@DBane53, Thats sorta the idea we're having! Lets look at it this way: how many total minis are there? (For the purposes of our 'equations', only consider all OFFICIAL WOTC sets) alrighty, looks like theres 900~ (I dont know the exact amount). Of those, how many miniatures have CE's, and how many do not? The CE effectiveness modifier should be a share of the total amount of those units with CEs. A similar approach could be taken to SAs: you could even break it down into demographics --- group minis with ONLY the same SA's together, for example, all the figures with Squad Assault would be grouped together, all the figures with Droid, or Unique and so on. Bottom Line, CE figures effectiveness is relative to: the size of the group the CE is effective upon, what rule the CE modifies, how many figures with the CE you can include in a squad. That being said, I think it should be like a 4 point rating for CE's on a case by case basis; -1 CE is so horrible, it practically hands the opponent a game. (HYPOTHETICALLY, a piece with a CE which forbids reserves, pieces of any other faction, or any abilities that heal HPs would be this bad) -0.75 CE is terrible. -0.5 CE is moderately counterproductive/restrictive -0.25 CE is mildly useless 0 - CE is so esoteric, its practically useless (CE that grants Geonosians swarm +1, etc) 0.25 - CE is mildly useful, but requires synergy and a brilliant tactician to work 0.5 - CE is fairly standard, and usually modifies one of the base modifiers (such as Total HP, Total Def, Total ATK Rating, Total Attacks, movement etc.) 0.75 - as for .5, but slightly better. 1 - CE is broken, like allowing figures to swap places, forbidding force powers, --- Doing some tweaking with the concepts we're throwing around here, a GGDAC/Lancer squad in 200 comes out with a competitiveness rating of 68.92375649248.... where a Republic Yobuck/Anistap squad comes out with a whopping 138.2837689...!!! In otherwords, I think we need to limit ourselves; a base set of assumptions, a 'gold standard' of an average squad and making the rating relative to a points limit would all help greatly.
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great ideas! I friend suggested to factor in movement & movement breakers.
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