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FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 3:17:34 PM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Boris wrote:
I'd rather have a figure that ended up being a disappointment for one of the designers (God knows I have had several myself) than to have a piece that the next 3 design teams are scrambling to come up with counters to because it sneaks through as a powerhouse gatekeeper (been on that side of the fence as well, not fun).


Agree with this wholeheartedly. We playtested Galen and though his price could come down at least 5 points (maybe more), but a piece that is too strong is far, far worse than an overcosted piece. So with mixed opinions I'm glad the cost went higher, even though the result is a Galen Marek that isn't hitting the competitive tables. Better safe than sorry.
SignerJ
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 4:05:08 PM
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I realize that many people are probably going to be against this, but... Why not design another Galen? I mean, there are multiple Vaders, multiple Lukes... What's wrong with another Galen?

I suppose the only problem is a new way to design him, and the fact that this is probably a bad idea.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 6:34:33 PM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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SignerJ wrote:
I realize that many people are probably going to be against this, but... Why not design another Galen? I mean, there are multiple Vaders, multiple Lukes... What's wrong with another Galen?

I suppose the only problem is a new way to design him, and the fact that this is probably a bad idea.


I think he's worth another version. I might prefer if he never existed in the first place in SW lore... but he plays a pivotal role and is worthy of another piece or two. We have 3 Bastilas and 4 Kyle Katarns after all.
countrydude82487
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:41:24 PM
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Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 1,233
FlyingArrow wrote:
SignerJ wrote:
I realize that many people are probably going to be against this, but... Why not design another Galen? I mean, there are multiple Vaders, multiple Lukes... What's wrong with another Galen?

I suppose the only problem is a new way to design him, and the fact that this is probably a bad idea.


I think he's worth another version. I might prefer if he never existed in the first place in SW lore... but he plays a pivotal role and is worthy of another piece or two. We have 3 Bastilas and 4 Kyle Katarns after all.


yeah there is no reason you cannot ever make new versions of peices. As long as the design team would leave time in between the newer version. To me that would a good idea with alot of other pieces. Sure i know the goal would be to make a good version of the piece that works well and is well represented, but as gamers sometimes we try to make something out to be far more powerful than it should be. Also not every version that comes out has to be the same. Case and point is Kyl Katarn: for the most part all 4 pieces are drastically different. though you maybe right that he will be a tough concept to build without over costing or breaking the game.
surf_rider56
Posted: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:32:31 PM
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Joined: 9/19/2008
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Boris wrote:
fingersandteeth wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
The Celestial Warrior wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
As for missed opportunities, Galen Marek is still my biggest regret. Rebels needed (and still need) a big strong beatstick, and I really wanted him to be it. Unfortunately there were concerns of him being too powerful, which have obviously been proven to be unfounded (Galen is definitely overcosted). It's an example of a single playtester being wrong about a piece, but us designers listening anyway.

Oh well, live and learn.


Sigh, just reread that thread....affinity, blasted you, affinity!


Which thread? Link?


its a design thread so you most likely don't have access to it.

The crux of the argument were he was allegedly too strong in imperial. So he got toned down and now is too weak to be competitive in either faction.
It was a 9 page thread where a playtester was convinced that force repulse and replace attacks force pull was broken in imperials and kept on and on and on about it without much playtest info to go on.

IMO, a lot of the issues were the result of a lack of understanding of rebel v imperial commander effects and how their top squads play.
One faction he gets access to mobile, evade, levitate and an extra attack at the end of someone elses turn
in the other he gets opportunist and swap

Both with tempo control, yet some how the imperials were supposed to be more dangerous with him.





Just saw this. Okay so this is more on par with what happened. An Imperial squad running him with Jarael allowed 18-square movement, swap, 6 more squares of movement and then Force Pop (sorry I don't have the card in front of me so I can't tell you for sure what abilities he has by name). Tempo control had next to nothing to do with it. In several games, it wiped out at least half the other squad on the very first turn. It was broken in those games that were played. Others may feel free to disagree, but I don't regret voicing my concerns. I'd rather have a figure that ended up being a disappointment for one of the designers (God knows I have had several myself) than to have a piece that the next 3 design teams are scrambling to come up with counters to because it sneaks through as a powerhouse gatekeeper (been on that side of the fence as well, not fun).


As I read this the first thing that popped into my mind is that the designers and playtesters seem to know each other well, have played with/against each other often and can sometimes see what each other is doing/planning once they've revealed their teams; moreso when you're playtesting a piece and seeing how it plays against "X" squad. Our SWM community is small; I know what the other guys are thinking as soon as I see their squads and I'm sure I'm darn transparent.

Long/short of it is maybe the V-Setters should expand who works on the new sets; instead of the same 8-12 guys rotating around from one set to another perhaps they should bring in a few new faces; its not enough to solicit ideas because its the same people hashing things out. Maybe 3-4 veterans and 1-2 new people that they know and trust but haven't played against that much. New, fresh perspectives may help. Same goes for playtesters; same people will make the same moves. New people will surprise you on occassion with a totally unexpected move from a piece you thought you knew. The most dangerous people are the ones that have no clue because you have no idea what they'll do.

My 2 cents worth; as a coach I used to live listening in on other peoples huddles just to glimpse their thought process.
crazybirdman
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:38:40 AM
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That would be cool. Maybe one or two new people could have access to the design thread? There could be a contest, or a tournament to earn that spot for each V-set.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 6:42:11 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
crazybirdman wrote:
That would be cool. Maybe one or two new people could have access to the design thread? There could be a contest, or a tournament to earn that spot for each V-set.


Something like... whoever the works the hardest at playtesting a set is invited to design in the next set.

And whoever wins gencon gets to design one piece of their own.

OMG ThumbsUp

BigGrin Smile

I don't know if that's official policy, but that's kind of how it works already. I might disagree with a piece or three, but the process that's in place for the Vsets is great.

My only criticism from being a playtester is the mention of a discussion thread for playtesters. I was never aware of that. The opportunity to discuss pieces beyond just the two of us may have helped us immensely. Not that we playtested that much anyway (only playing 4 to 8 games per month, and only half of those being playtests)... but if we had some discussion available we probably could have built squads closer to Tier 1 on the first try, and been better aware of potential abuses.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:49:05 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
crazybirdman wrote:
That would be cool. Maybe one or two new people could have access to the design thread? There could be a contest, or a tournament to earn that spot for each V-set.


Something like... whoever the works the hardest at playtesting a set is invited to design in the next set.


+1. Maybe people don't know or realize this, but there has been at least 1 new designer on every single V-set so far, including set 7. In fact, of the 7 sets with designers so far, there have been 14 different people designing; an average of 2 new people per set! Also keep in mind that each set only has 3-4 designers, so that's a lot of new blood regularly getting involved. If we added many more new people, we would have to either increase the size of the design team (which would be a bad idea, because you quickly run into the issue of having too many people involved, and everyone knows that too many cooks spoils the stew), or have design teams of entirely new people (which would be a bad idea for, well, obvious reasons).
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:55:00 AM
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Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 522
Location: Chicago
surf_rider56 wrote:


Long/short of it is maybe the V-Setters should expand who works on the new sets; instead of the same 8-12 guys rotating around from one set to another perhaps they should bring in a few new faces; its not enough to solicit ideas because its the same people hashing things out. Maybe 3-4 veterans and 1-2 new people that they know and trust but haven't played against that much. New, fresh perspectives may help. Same goes for playtesters; same people will make the same moves. New people will surprise you on occassion with a totally unexpected move from a piece you thought you knew. The most dangerous people are the ones that have no clue because you have no idea what they'll do.


Every set has had a new lead designer on that has not designed before. Each set also has ideas that carry over from others also. I think the process has done a good job of keeping things fresh while maintaining a level of consistency that is requred to make the game gel. I don't expect the design process to stop incorporating new people. At least, in my view, it should always have a new face for the reasons you state.

Set 1 - Boris, Fingersandteeth, Engineer
Set 2 - Billiv15, Ruhk, Boris
Set 3 - Fingersandteeth, Echo, Billiv15
Set 4 - Leshippy, Echo, Weeks, urbanjedi, Boris
Set 5 - TINT, sithborg, the_celestial_warrior, Fingersandteeth
Set 6 - Leshippy, Lou, Weeks, Echo
Set 7 - Fingersandteeth, Timmerb123, urbanjedi, The_celestial_warrior
set 8 tbd

thereisnotry
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:34:55 PM
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Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 1,784
Location: Canada
Echo24 wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
crazybirdman wrote:
That would be cool. Maybe one or two new people could have access to the design thread? There could be a contest, or a tournament to earn that spot for each V-set.


Something like... whoever the works the hardest at playtesting a set is invited to design in the next set.


+1.

Yes, make that a +2. There are really (IMHO) two extremely important things when it comes to designing:

First, you absolutely MUST have a good grasp of the competitive SWM game and understand the power and impact of various strategies and pieces. In other words, you've gotta know "the meta." Without this, you'll either make pieces that are overpowered or completely irrelevant for the game. Honestly, you need more than "a deep love for the game" in order to do this job well: you also need to be a highly skilled player. If you're going in for brain surgery, would you rather have a clumsy new surgeon or a proven and skilled surgeon? Similar thing (though slightly less critical) with the work of SWM design: you've simply gotta know how to play SWM at the highest level.

Second, you have to have the time and energy to commit to it. It might sound exciting and even romantic Love to work on the design team, but I'll tell you from experience that it's no picnic. There's a LOT of work involved--grunt work. You will have to keep track of dozens of different designs at once, while keeping an eye on the current pieces as well as the other pieces in the new set that may influence the impact of a given piece. Plus, matters of differing personalities can arise, which can make things more stressful. And don't forget the deadlines. So if you want to be a designer then you've got to be willing to put the time in. And how do we know that you'll put the time in as a designer? You guessed it: your performance and reliability as a playtester. If you look at the list that Fingersandteeth wrote, you'll notice that all of the designers were highly involved in playtesting (plus other things) and had already proven themselves to be reliable and dedicated before they were designers.

There may be more critical factors than these two when it comes to criteria for being a V-Set designer, but IMHO these two are foundational.
TimmerB123
Posted: Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:48:11 PM
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The progression for the past few sets seems to be playtester to playtest committee to designer. You gotta put in your dues and prove yourself.

A great example of moving up a level is Jake K (Sthlrd2). He did great playtests for a number of years, helped Jason and Laura paint customs for the GenCon sealed, and played at a high level with several Regional top four placings. He showed commitment and put in the time, and now he is a member of the playtest comitee.

Get involved and do the tough, time consuming jobs in the community, and that is a major step in the process.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2013 9:34:21 AM
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Posts: 8,428
TimmerB123 wrote:
Get involved and do the tough, time consuming jobs in the community, and that is a major step in the process.


crazybirdman,

Seriously. Do it. If you're involved enough, they'll find work for you - eventually to the point of being on the committee.

I can't/won't make it there. I'd love to be more involved, but as I mentioned I typically only play 4-8 games a month. Not enough to be a good playtester. Plus, playtesting isn't so fun... you get to see stats early, but often the pieces are underpowered - not fun - or broken - even less fun. That's the point of playtesting, of course. But the process of making a piece fun is not necessarily fun itself. In most cases, I'd rather play a scenario and play with established pieces. There you go - I'm less competition for you if you want to earn your way onto the design committee eventually.

BigGrin
surf_rider56
Posted: Friday, April 26, 2013 12:31:43 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 9/19/2008
Posts: 1,740
Location: Orange County, CA
FlyingArrow wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Get involved and do the tough, time consuming jobs in the community, and that is a major step in the process.


crazybirdman,

Seriously. Do it. If you're involved enough, they'll find work for you - eventually to the point of being on the committee.

I can't/won't make it there. I'd love to be more involved, but as I mentioned I typically only play 4-8 games a month. Not enough to be a good playtester. Plus, playtesting isn't so fun... you get to see stats early, but often the pieces are underpowered - not fun - or broken - even less fun. That's the point of playtesting, of course. But the process of making a piece fun is not necessarily fun itself. In most cases, I'd rather play a scenario and play with established pieces. There you go - I'm less competition for you if you want to earn your way onto the design committee eventually.

BigGrin


.... and of course that's the crux of the problem for so many of us. I know James (crazybirdman) just bought a fixer-upper and couldn't even make the last gamenight. WE May play 1-2 a month for 3-4 games, and that's where so many of us are because of life. It's easy to play if you're younger or family/work life allows for more involvement but I will admit the reason why the core is so small is they're the ones that have or can make the time.

I would love to volunteer but scheduling says otherwise. Life's rough, play on BlooMilk
corranhorn
Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 12:02:31 PM
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DaKeyring wrote:
Sevrance Tann, that rapport is just ridiculous, 10 POINTS!!! for every 1 huge you include, you can add another super battle droid!!! FLAWED


Are you aware of how competitively viable huge are? That is to say not at all. Razz At least, that's how it was before Sevrance.
corranhorn
Posted: Saturday, April 27, 2013 12:03:33 PM
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Joined: 3/14/2009
Posts: 1,728
FlyingArrow wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Get involved and do the tough, time consuming jobs in the community, and that is a major step in the process.


crazybirdman,

Seriously. Do it. If you're involved enough, they'll find work for you - eventually to the point of being on the committee.

I can't/won't make it there. I'd love to be more involved, but as I mentioned I typically only play 4-8 games a month. Not enough to be a good playtester. Plus, playtesting isn't so fun... you get to see stats early, but often the pieces are underpowered - not fun - or broken - even less fun. That's the point of playtesting, of course. But the process of making a piece fun is not necessarily fun itself. In most cases, I'd rather play a scenario and play with established pieces. There you go - I'm less competition for you if you want to earn your way onto the design committee eventually.

BigGrin


Sadly, this is me as well. I get a chance to play even less than you (maybe 1-3 games a month).
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