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Brutally Honest Conversation (Map Pack 6 is looking bleak) Options
Jedicartographer
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 4:53:03 PM
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The overall lack of interest, save for a handful of people, in Map Pack 6 has really been troublesome for me. I was wondering if there is a reason where the lack of interest is coming from. The fundraising drive shoulve been blown out of the water by now, and honestly, it could go either way right now.

Is it me? Is it the maps you've seen so far? Is everyone just gone? If you are an active SWM player and you haven't pledged, and don't plan on it, can you maybe kind of just let me know the reason for passing this time around? It will definitely help.

As an incentive for this particular gaming community, After (if) the project has been succsefully funded, I've decided to donate 50 copies of map pack 6 to Jason Kiernan who will distribute the maps as needed for events throughout the summer. So even if you don't want to pay full price, you can still donate what you can, and still have a good chance to get the map pack at an event.

Anyways, if the fundraiser fails, then thats going to be the end of the "Armored Cartographers" map line, as you know it. I'd hate for the only tangible, fresh and new product being designed specifically for this game to finally end. Map Pack 1 happened 7 years ago. It's a hell of a good run, but I really hope that I can share the new maps because in my heart, this collection im putting together is my love letter to Star Wars. It's my expression of what Star Wars was all about to me. And I know for a fact 4 of these maps are going to be great maps for competetive play.

So I have just a little over a month to raise 1,484 dollars (comes to about 33 more 45 Dollar Pledges). Every little bit counts, and even if I get close, I will create a dummy account and pledge the rest myself.

Again, if your not going to pledge, please share why your are going to pass. Its not going to hurt my feelings, or cause a conflict. I'm just trying to determine the next course of action, and make a good priduct for everyone :-)

If the pledge drive fails, anyone who paid me directly through paypal will be fully refunded of course. I've kept track of all that, a also may try to just re-boot the project with a lower goal, but that may end up being a poor longterm business decision, so I am going to weigh my options.






TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:15:57 PM
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The maps I've seen look great. I'm checking who else in our New Zealand group is keen, but there are at least four of us going to chip in for a pack, maybe more.
DarkDracul
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 5:30:48 PM
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I think a couple guys in my area are interested but had stuff going. I will try and spread the word.
Jedicartographer
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:19:07 PM
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Thanks. I know it's just not the same anymore. Most of us are gone now. I don't even play anymore. It's been 2 years since I last played I think.

The Smugglers Moon map is my crowning achievement. I've literally been working on this design for 3 years. It is by far the most detailed map I've ever made. It will be a shame if It doesnt get published. We'll see. I'm hope full still :-)

swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:50:43 PM
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I'm sure the goal will be met. I'm definitely going to pledge, I just haven't yet.

Others are probably in the same position as me, having to time expenditures carefully. I'd rather pledge late than have to withdraw a pledge because of unforeseen circumstances.

Also, I appreciate that you included a digital download option this time around. I don't want them to print my own copies, but I'd like to see them represented in Vassal and Map Explorer. Some of your work is missing, which makes me a bit sad, for posterity's sake. BlooMilk
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 6:52:56 PM
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Don't all kickstarter pledges come within the first 3 days and the last 3 days of the pledge drive? :-)
Darth_Jim
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:32:17 PM
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Pimping this right now on SHNN.
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, February 26, 2015 8:54:56 PM
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Also some may be like me and have already pledged but will pledge more closer to the finish. I still have my eyes on that custom map design, but just have to get approval from the keeper of my finances (wife) hahaha. But it will happen I'm sure of it Matt!
kobayashimaru
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 4:15:02 AM
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Howdy jedicartographer,
I'd be happy to provide some concrit feedback - it can be daunting when there's not much to go on... i can completely empathise there.

Why and what could explain this unexpected apparent outcome?
I don't think it's you, or the maps themselves,
there is a lot of value proposition there - these maps are printed to high grade standards.
The visuals are dynamic, the layouts fair and playtested to a high standard.
You've always been not-for-profit kinda person, and transparent and reliable in turn around time - a highly trustworthy trader. So I don't think people are necessarily finding the price of the map itself a problem - shipping, that might be a consideration etc (though that is beyond your control etc).

i think its just tough times all round, a lack of liquidity and 'disposable income' maybe?
and the factor of people having other real-world commitments etc, rotating out of the hobby and getting new hobbies.

I think I can empathise with where you're coming from; you're at a point where, due to minimum print run constraints and margins etc... (everyone taking their slice of the pie along the way), its just borderline viable at the moment.
You've done your shopping around, you've done your homework and found the best possible printing option with the greatest 'give' in terms of margin play.
You've gotta do what you gotta do, kids gotta eat and all BigGrin
That, and its a risk-reward thing too; since the Disney-ing, a lot of alt garage stuff is playing russian roulette; long time makers such as Alfred Wong are slowing down, same with MvM.
Indie artists and sculptors are loath to take on minis commissions involving such content (mainly due to unrealistic value propositions, and the fact that they can't market their work), so I've been fortunate to find quite a few who'll roll the dice, such as ExManus Studios who brought long awaited characters to life in miniature form.

Also, I think at this point, looking at things a different way,
there are already a large array of map options, and perhaps that is now becoming a factor? I have 20-30 Maps, and 17 collapseable 3D terrains (MDF), so it takes a lot to motivate to add to that "gaming museum" heh. Between the Gemmological collection, miniatures and art... I'm simply running out of space heh.
They get used 120-140 times a year minimum - gaming is a priority and a great way to socialise and unwind. Its also a great way to keep the mind active and using maths skills.

perhaps people are also wanting to shift away from a Heroclix-pseudochess style 2D maps, and into 3D terrain? that is part of the appeal of movement systems such as in W40K etc, as against perhaps a 'juvenile' perception associated with 'play mats'? Play mats aren't as discrete perhaps as a tape measure and tool box...
Maybe theres not enough awareness or advertising going on either... especially in other languages? or on 'shudders' "social media"...
-- few of the popular 'tabletop game review' sites on Youtube are covering SWMinis any more, and there are very few promotional events held - such as playing SWMinis while in a submarine underwater, astronauts playing SWMinis in space, our friends in defense sharing the locales they've played SWMinis (such as onboard USS Kitty Hawk, USS Ronald Reagan, etc), playing SWMinis on very high mountains (mount cook and a few places, it's been played everywhere!) - Has George Lucas himself ever played Star Wars Miniatures?
so, there's less new people coming into the space, to then have a trickledown chance that some of these people will want to add to a map variety, if that makes sense?

Using SCAMPER and Mindmapping to examine the Kipling Method behind the product,
there's little incentive toward creative destruction in the cradle to grave cycle of the product;
no perforations that necessitate and incentivise repeat patronage.
So, one side might be the map, the other side might have a maze with a 'prize'... or Alan Moore style faux ads with coupons for discounts at online pop-culture shops (some of which you negotiate, and so are real) etc...
or some other features, such as perforations such that people can break the map up to use the map instead as a set of terrain tiles (which would require extra copies of maps to be purchased, etc).
Maybe your map is onesided, and on the other side are Poster Art - a detailed map of the SWUniverse with names of the systems would be AWESOME! Maybe you have a set of "Army Backdrop Art" - on the traverse are faction-themed posters. I never got why WotC didn't ever do this.

The asset/map, while awesome, is ostensibly not an appreciable asset, and value adds to a niche market namely tabletop game miniatures.
What ways can a map be modified? Map Tshirts? Map coffee mugs/coasters... map wallpaper/wrapping paper...
What is the map made out of - and how does a map interact with other maps? So, transparent maps, waterproof/smudge resistant... see, there are already loads of space-maps and textured maps/mats ( GaleForce 9 Battle Maps, vinyl maps etc.) Stainless etched lithographic trophy maps.
What is a point of difference with a map as opposed to other maps? Cheaper, has distinct features and functionality...


Anywho, that's a few perspectives from how I see things,
I hope you're able to make this map too, and continue making maps for as long as you enjoy doing so BigGrin.
Maybe if you're not able to make a definitive physical printed set run, to then mail out etc...
maybe you make the map available as a print-ready document for people to download and then they find a way to print or make use of that file? So, maybe at a slight increased cost, it can be sold as a digital print-ready map (a slight increase, because even if its print-ready, people could make a large run and print off loads of maps, etc...).

Maybe you pivot to better margin/turn around time activities -
limited time activities, such as only working for 1hr or 2hr turnaround time on terrain tiles (those are AWESOME and yet there are so few terrain tiles still).
or new things, such as base terrain stickers for existing large and colossal figures (so as characters can stand underneath the figure).
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 9:17:06 AM
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My reason for not jumping in is basically this: As of last summer I have stepped back from SWM and largely moved on to other things. I'll still play in a couple of events at GenCon and some Regionals (mostly because of the many awesome friendships I've made over the years), but the competitive game has largely lost its sparkle for me. My main interest with SWM has always been the competitive game, and therefore I'm no longer interested in spending more money on the game at all, even if the new maps are great. I've looked at one of the maps (I think it might be Smuggler's Moon), and it does look like it will be quite solid for competitive play--if I was still excited about the game I would've pledged several weeks ago.

In addition, I long ago decided that I'd laminate all of my SWM maps, both because I dislike the way that dice roll (or don't roll) on a folded map, and also because I want my map investments to last. But lamination brings a cost of approximately $10 per map. So basically, the cost of a map pack is not just the Kickstarter cost, but also the lamination cost. Not all people laminate, but it seems like the majority of people; perhaps, in a difficult economy, this is a factor for some of these people as well. I'm pretty sure I still have an unopened map pack somewhere in my gaming closet, that I haven't time/interest/money to take care of yet.

I obviously can't claim to speak for everyone, but that's where I'm coming from.



swinefeld wrote:
Also, I appreciate that you included a digital download option this time around. I don't want them to print my own copies, but I'd like to see them represented in Vassal and Map Explorer. Some of your work is missing, which makes me a bit sad, for posterity's sake.
Actually, I PMed JC several times in the past, asking for Vassal copies of those older maps, but he said he was too busy and had more important priorities. I'd be happy to add them if he would send them to me, but he said (Feb 2013) "This probably isn't going to happen soon."
jak
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 10:11:58 AM
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I simply have more maps than I'll ever use.
I agree with Trevor, the only reason I play competitively is to hang with awesome people.

The game is slowly dying, despite our efforts to keep it alive.Mad
Jedicartographer
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 10:49:08 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
My reason for not jumping in is basically this: As of last summer I have stepped back from SWM and largely moved on to other things. I'll still play in a couple of events at GenCon and some Regionals (mostly because of the many awesome friendships I've made over the years), but the competitive game has largely lost its sparkle for me. My main interest with SWM has always been the competitive game, and therefore I'm no longer interested in spending more money on the game at all, even if the new maps are great. I've looked at one of the maps (I think it might be Smuggler's Moon), and it does look like it will be quite solid for competitive play--if I was still excited about the game I would've pledged several weeks ago.

In addition, I long ago decided that I'd laminate all of my SWM maps, both because I dislike the way that dice roll (or don't roll) on a folded map, and also because I want my map investments to last. But lamination brings a cost of approximately $10 per map. So basically, the cost of a map pack is not just the Kickstarter cost, but also the lamination cost. Not all people laminate, but it seems like the majority of people; perhaps, in a difficult economy, this is a factor for some of these people as well. I'm pretty sure I still have an unopened map pack somewhere in my gaming closet, that I haven't time/interest/money to take care of yet.

I obviously can't claim to speak for everyone, but that's where I'm coming from.



swinefeld wrote:
Also, I appreciate that you included a digital download option this time around. I don't want them to print my own copies, but I'd like to see them represented in Vassal and Map Explorer. Some of your work is missing, which makes me a bit sad, for posterity's sake.
Actually, I PMed JC several times in the past, asking for Vassal copies of those older maps, but he said he was too busy and had more important priorities. I'd be happy to add them if he would send them to me, but he said (Feb 2013) "This probably isn't going to happen soon."



Digital copies were never a priority for me because I was always swamped with new maps, for this game and others, and all the actual labor that goes along with it, coupled with my real world life, I just had to triage. The way you've kind of laid it out, it seems like I may have offended you with my direct answer, definitely wasn't my intention. If I did, I'm sorry. My files on my computer are all over the place, and the files are so huge, it actually is a really big ordeal to find them, open up the maps, and resize them. Its not a 15 minute thing.

I also have ALWAYS been very leary about dolling out digital copies because they tend to get spread around to people for free, and in a way, that's stealing from me. I came across a facebook conversation recently about my maps, and digital copies, and basically one of the responses was "Don't worry dude, I'll burn you copies when I get the disc." It was innocent enough, but thats the whole reason I never make digital copies a priority. I'm only doing it this time because so many people asked for them last time, I just kind of had to find a way to make it work.

You're right, all of you, about the dwindling competetive game. I'm sure that this is going to be the last Map Pack that gets released with specific tailoring to SWM. you have to change with the times, and there are other ventures. I think the key statement someone made up above..."I have more maps than I'll ever need". Thats really what it boils down to.

We'll see what happens. There a fighting chance that Map Pack 6 is going to happen.

FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:30:13 AM
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jak wrote:
The game is slowly dying, despite our efforts to keep it alive.Mad


I hear people say this and I guess it's true but for me the game is pretty much exactly the same as it was 3 years ago. I played with one opponent a couple times per month and a regional in the Spring. Now it's the same, except there are a handful of other players that now occasionally join us. Last year I went to GenCon for the first time and hope to make it again this year.
Echo24
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 11:51:20 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
jak wrote:
The game is slowly dying, despite our efforts to keep it alive.Mad


I hear people say this and I guess it's true but for me the game is pretty much exactly the same as it was 3 years ago. I played with one opponent a couple times per month and a regional in the Spring. Now it's the same, except there are a handful of other players that now occasionally join us. Last year I went to GenCon for the first time and hope to make it again this year.


You're like the Benjamin Button of SWM.


Anyway, my reasons are similar to Trevor's. I also just had a kid, so money is tighter than ever for me. I really do love your work Matt, but it's hard to justify a purchase on a game I don't get to play much anymore. When I do play, I certainly have plenty of maps.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:06:50 PM
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It's still played about the same up here in Alberta but some players have moved away. I will keep supporting any new sets/maps as I enjoy the diversity and fresh concepts
darthwhovian
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 12:48:45 PM
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Kudos to your dedication and designs! I also am in Alberta, however my very small group have not used maps for quite awhile. We use a squared base map with 3D terrain, it has the benefit of multiple setups and looks alot better and keeps players excited to hse new terrain I make! Sorry for the lack of interest, if we did still play on maps I'd be on board for sure! Goodluck:-)
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 2:14:35 PM
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darthwhovian wrote:
Kudos to your dedication and designs! I also am in Alberta, however my very small group have not used maps for quite awhile. We use a squared base map with 3D terrain, it has the benefit of multiple setups and looks alot better and keeps players excited to hse new terrain I make! Sorry for the lack of interest, if we did still play on maps I'd be on board for sure! Goodluck:-)


Nice more players! Well if you are ever up for a map using regional let me know, we are working on planning another for this year. Just not sure of time yet. I think Sithfan is an alberta player too!
darthwhovian
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 5:25:54 PM
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Thanks sounds cool! I play with 3 others, ony one is on this site, like never, so it's all me on the design side of things! Let me know bro!
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2015 7:52:55 PM
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darthwhovian wrote:
Thanks sounds cool! I play with 3 others, ony one is on this site, like never, so it's all me on the design side of things! Let me know bro!


Haha roger that will do
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