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The History of Activations Options
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 2:20:36 PM
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Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
Not too long after I started playing, in 2010, the GenCon Championship final featured this squad:

--Gimp Imps--
71 Lord Vader
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)
27 Lobot
23 Jarael
11 Admiral Ozzel
8 Mas Amedda
5 Imperial Dignitary
21 Rodian Brute x7
(198pts. 14 activations) (20 activations with 6 Reinforcements)

Playing against this squad:
--Smug Commandos (2010 Gencon Champion Squad)--
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
27 Lobot
27 Luke Skywalker, Rebel Commando
20 Princess Leia
32 Elite Rebel Commando x2
16 General Crix Madine
14 General Rieekan
12 Gha Nachkt
9 General Dodonna
8 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit
8 Mouse Droid x4
(200pts. 15 activations) (25 activations with 10 Mouse Droids)


I think I remember reading that the Imperial player realised he was in trouble as soon as he saw that he was outactivated, since Thrawn likes to outactivate. It seems like activations was a dominant strategy at the end of WOTC.

My perception is that we saw lower activation squads do really well in 2011 and 2012 with the early v-sets, but in later metas we've seen the number of activations ramp up again. The last GenCon winner, Darth_Jim's squad, got up to 26 activations.

--Wuher the Hypocrite GenCon 2015 Champion Squad--
50 Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
13 Amanin Scout
12 Gha Nachkt
11 Admiral Ozzel
9 Wuher
8 Mas Amedda
14 R7 Astromech Droid x2
9 Rodian Brute x3
26 Mouse Droid x13
(200pts. 26 activations)

I have lots of questions?

What were activations like before 2010? I guess 150 was the championship/regional level before 2010, so it would have been a little different.

Do you agree that activations became less important in the early v-set era, then have gradually cranked up again?

What encourages high activations?

Do you think recent changes will help? eg Queen Amanoa, removal of 2 point pieces, tank builds like Vader of Lothal and ObiKin?
Darth_Jim
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:01:09 PM
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Joined: 4/23/2008
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Location: Central Pa
2009 was my first year at GenCon, and I ran Rebels. I remember that it was hard to boost activations with fodder, because you had less space for power. I was barely competitive back then (I finished 4-3 in 21st place), so I'm curious as to how the top players back then would answer your questions, Graham.

Single swap Thrawn squads certainly bump up the activations when they are relevant in the meta. In my opinion, single swap HAS to outactivate to be successful. I don't think double swap does, though. If I were to play double swap I'd run it aggressively without tempo control.

I sure hope the balance committee changes affect the importance of activations...my squad for FrostyCon only has 9 lol.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:47:21 PM
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Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
Darth_Jim wrote:
Single swap Thrawn squads certainly bump up the activations when they are relevant in the meta. In my opinion, single swap HAS to outactivate to be successful. I don't think double swap does, though. If I were to play double swap I'd run it aggressively without tempo control.


I think the recent-ish swarms have had an impact too, especially Daala. Either they chase single swap Thrawn out, or they force him to double swap (which is pretty dicey with the Imperial Governor neutered) or super high activations.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 7:07:48 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
It will be interesting to see how/whether Daala returns. She wasn't really "beaten" out of the meta. NZ just banned her for a year, and I think the US just wanted to try something new. There are a bunch of things that hurt her, but I don't think any of them are autolosses. More scissors options... Pinpoint Attacks and Rolling Attacks in particular. And more Evade/Soresu/Shien pieces.
DarkDracul
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:12:14 PM
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Joined: 4/18/2008
Posts: 1,098
Location: Kokomo
Shhh... about She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named!

IMHO the power of Activations was first realized in 2005 Universe set GA Thrawn, Black and Blue & Nom Anor, Nom Bombs. 2006 Bounty Hunters brought Broken Boba and San Hill squads. 2007 the Activation limit hit the proverbial fan with Alliance and Empire's Ithorian Commander and 7pt Chadra-Fan Pickpockets. Separatists also had high activation squads. Many of these squads were over 20. Wizards answered back by giving us Lancer and Kybuck in 2008 Clone Wars set. 2008-09 Lancer and Kybuck squads were dominant but the true winner were the Speedy Cannon squads. Everyone was playing the same things and the meta was lame. Then the V-sets breathed fresh air into the game 2010-2013; Bastila, Malgus, Caedus, Naboo, Lukes art Class, Thon, ect.. Then in 2014 the Buzz Droid and Lin Droid nurtured Lancer and Daala created a workaround Bastila's ABM. Well, there was still Kybuck, right? 2015 the meta opened up with more options but Activations still ruled. 2016 a balance team brings several key changes, v-set 9, 10, 11, bring several meta shifting options... no idea what will happen!
kobayashimaru
Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 10:44:57 PM
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Joined: 8/26/2011
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excellent discussion!

how far back are we talking?
a while ago, maybe 2 and a bit years ago...
folks were annoyed about mousies providing cover etc.
also, several threads on "why is SWMinis not star warsy anymore" and
"who nerfed melee"...
thankfully, there was an errata for championships preventing points below a certain cost
(which annoyed swarm squads etc)
and steps are being taken to make SWMinis VSets 'more hands on and star-wars-y".
Melee will be a long time before being what it was in the Black n Blue era... though I'd argue that'd be going too far in favor of melee... BigGrin

TheHutts' data convinced me to give V-Sets a go,
and a lot of strategy tips, so over time,
I've eased up on the criticism (whatever floats the SWMinis boat)
I've come to slowly introducing folks to them.
That mismatch between a VSet and Non-VSet squad though, does come up more often than folks think
(its a real what-the? as to why folks don't search for custom SWMinis or the forums ehehe)

large activation mis-matches have been annoying autolosses to
"unprepared" squads which have not included their hobson's choice counter to act/tempo control,
since San Hill or Tarkin back in the day.
its a sub-set of "autoloss by mismatch".

Its a form of stalling for time at the abusive end (which arbiters will hover over).
however, being a CIS fan, there is nothing more awesome than having a swarm of 1pt reinforcement droids plug away at and defeat a unique etc...

what causes high-acts or swarms?
Daala swarms, Gizor Delzo or Poggle+Gha+Wat or san or lobot etc droid squads
those were potentially nasty -
and were hard to prevent, as that's a meta combo that was unforeseen...
further - its in that sweetspot for the 'hobson choice autoinclude' which a squad has to have in order to survive in competitive settings;
swarms are risky/flukey mostly
so to design a counter to it, is at the cost for countering other squads...

add to this, the abundance of undercosted reserves pieces, such as Lobot etc,
and more with the VSets, of Fringe faction,
and that is another factor to where acts are coming from.

we've gotta look at why bother with high-acts anyhow
The traditional advantage was: more angles of attack, more survivability, more options in field.
vs
lower average defense, lower damage output, lower hp.
That kept the incentive away from the swarm or high-acts, as it was too fragile relative to other builds with synergy.
particularly, in the case of high act v low act,
conditional abilities such as Cunning or Advantageous become auto-on and reliable,
as opposed to situational in other matchups...

Over time, the swarm or high-act squads could get more damage output and more survivability, to be competitive with other squads...

As to the question;
do you see more acts being a strategy in use or increasingly used in your local meta?
Yup... same old players, same swarm tactics, same flukey chance.
The act-disparity is only a surprise once or twice in that case,
rather than at tournament.

If the game is nearing balance, and a lot of meta options are out there,
then I think the number of acts shouldn't matter -
the cost of the 'autoinclude' pieces to counter tempo or high-act meta squads,
will come down,
and it will make those mismatches between high act and low act squads still playable,
not the auto-win/auto-loss proposition they once were...

some new pieces seem to still increase the number of acts via rapport etc,
so I intuit a 'ban/errata' discussion in the future on a few.
If that putsch to make SWMinis "MtG lite" keeps up, it will probably bridge some of the problems from MtG into SWMinis...


apologies for the novella,
I am looking forward to hearing what others think on this BigGrin
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 12:12:13 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
kobayashimaru wrote:
however, being a CIS fan, there is nothing more awesome than having a swarm of 1pt reinforcement droids plug away at and defeat a unique etc...


1 point reinforcement droids, how?


DarkDracul wrote:
Then in 2014 the Buzz Droid and Lin Droid nurtured Lancer and Daala created a workaround Bastila's ABM.


I'd probably throw Talon (punches holes in rock squads pretty easily with Ysalamari) and even Vong auto-damage swarms into the conversation as well. There were a whole lot of things in set 6/7 that pushed rocks out of the meta.

I like your narrative more than mine. High activation out activate and smash was certainly an option in the 2011-2013 meta, as it should be, but high activation swarms and out-activate squads have been much more prevalent since then.
TheHutts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 4:41:54 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
There's lots of discussion on this thread on the most recent SHNN, with DarkDracul, UrbanJedi, Lou, and Billiv15 discussing it - kicks in after ~40 minutes.

EPISODE310 - Sith Holonews Network: http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkCast.jsp?masterId=63807&cmd=tc
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