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He should be moved to the epic format only.
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5
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23.809523
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He is overpowered and needs to be redone.
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2
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9.523809
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I am worried about his impact on future design.
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5
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23.809523
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He is fine and doesn't need any changes.
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9
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42.857142
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He is powerful but there are counters available
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0
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0.000000
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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swinefeld wrote:I would comment on Father, but I imagine it would probably turn into a rambling stream-of-consciousness off-topic semi-rant about "forward thinking" (both good and bad) that always happens during the design process (including my own input). This would be an amazing thread all its own. Swinefeld is like a wise old wizard who doesn't get directly involved in our mortal design issues but guides us when we start to stray too far from the right path. 
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The very fact that so many players enjoy fighting with or against the Father shows you that it's not an NPE. And really it's just a weaker form of similar squads that do already exist:
Dooku w/ Grievous HoH + Asajj/shooter
Krayt w/ Plaugeis
Old Ben Kenobi and a few rebel shooters
Luke Grandmaster and any of the NR heroes
All of those are still viable super rock squads and are actually better than the Father builds. We shouldn't only have balanced chess match squads because it kills creativity. I love a squad that you CAN'T bring Lobot, Mas Amedda, Riekeen, or Thrawn in. Extreme squads as they have been put are a part of this game because it lets people have some unique challenges. What do you do against lancers? Stormtrooper Swarm? Bastilla? Talon and Fringe? Thrawn Swap? Huges... (just kidding still not there yet hahaha, one day they and reserves will be viable) and now the Father? Extremes that are viable create something new instead of:
This + Lobot + fodder.
Give me a viable three piece squad that can actually hold their own. I would hope for more pieces like this that limit your squad numbers for the sake of theme as variety is the spice of life.
Side note Swinefeld rocks
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While nominally based on the character from Mortis, swinefeld was actually the inspiration for this piece.
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FlyingArrow wrote:While nominally based on the character from Mortis, swinefeld was actually the inspiration for this piece. Hahaha yes! I see it! So that means we must keep it forever in our game!
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Echo24 wrote:swinefeld wrote:I would comment on Father, but I imagine it would probably turn into a rambling stream-of-consciousness off-topic semi-rant about "forward thinking" (both good and bad) that always happens during the design process (including my own input). This would be an amazing thread all its own. Swinefeld is like a wise old wizard who doesn't get directly involved in our mortal design issues but guides us when we start to stray too far from the right path. +1
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TimmerB123 wrote:Whenever a design team makes a Force user from now until eternity, they won't simply have to assess its strength within its own faction like they normally do. We will now have to take The Father into consideration every single time and compare it with pieces they can match up with in every single other faction. Design is already hard enough. This makes it a whole lot tougher. Or characters will be made without looking at synergies, or they may even see the possible synergies and decide they are just fine. It is near impossible to look at all k In all reality isn't that what happened with the father anyways? TimmerB123 wrote:A truly balanced squad gives you a chance against any other squad, and skill comes in the play more. Extreme squads more often have near auto wins and near auto losses. When you encounter those, less skill is involved. Yes!!! That is the ideal situation for me, creating an atmosphere for balanced squads where skill overrides the luck of the matchup. Maybe the worst odds being 60% to 40%. Not trying to push every squad type to the extreme! We have tried so hard already to limit paper and scissor squads, something I have been a huge advocate for, btw. I do not know a single person that likes to sit down, look across the table at their opponents squad and realize they have already lost. In that same area, it isnt any fun to sit down and see that you have countered your opponents squad either. By countering, I mean you would have a 75% chance or greater of winning. TimmerB123 wrote:Do you know the only thing worse than being beaten by a 25 character squad with activation control? Being beaten by a three character squad. The NPE factor is through the roof. Don't get me wrong, obviously this character is very polarizing. Some people love him. Have fun with him ya'll. Just know that there's a large part of the community that hates the concept to the very core. 100% agree, there is no bigger NPE for me then putting out a ton attacks and missing because the defense is so high or watching it get shielded, parried, evaded, or suddenly everyone is cloaked... etc.
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FlyingArrow wrote:While nominally based on the character from Mortis, swinefeld was actually the inspiration for this piece.
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Echo24 wrote:swinefeld wrote:I would comment on Father, but I imagine it would probably turn into a rambling stream-of-consciousness off-topic semi-rant about "forward thinking" (both good and bad) that always happens during the design process (including my own input). This would be an amazing thread all its own. Swinefeld is like a wise old wizard who doesn't get directly involved in our mortal design issues but guides us when we start to stray too far from the right path. Haha, thanks. It really could be a good thread, and I would participate, but wouldn't want to start it. Need a moderator (as in debate) to ask questions. Unlike what passes for political "debates" these days, nobody knows the questions in advance. ;)
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General_Grievous wrote:The very fact that so many players enjoy fighting with or against the Father shows you that it's not an NPE. And really it's just a weaker form of similar squads that do already exist. Players enjoyed naboo, players enjoyed lancer, players enjoyed blast bug, players enjoyed the vehicles and some players even enjoyed daala... The point being you can enjoy the father, but he CAN still be an NPE for other players. I am glad to hear there are other squads that can replace the father if ultimately changes are made.  General_Grievous wrote:We shouldn't only have balanced chess match squads because it kills creativity. I love a squad that you CAN'T bring Lobot, Mas Amedda, Riekeen, or Thrawn in.  Oh I agree, but extreme squads types of any kind should remain firmly in tier 2 or below. Otherwise they cause quite a disturbance in the force... the meta, the game and the community. General_Grievous wrote:Extreme squads as they have been put are a part of this game because it lets people have some unique challenges. What do you do against lancers? Stormtrooper Swarm? Bastilla? Talon and Fringe? Thrawn Swap? Huges... (just kidding still not there yet hahaha, one day they and reserves will be viable) and now the Father? Extremes that are viable create something new instead of: This + Lobot + fodder. You are making my brain hurt...  People have left the game for almost all of the squads listed. They also have asked for hard core counters directly to most of those squads. Which is what we dont want in this case because that would hurt ALL rock squads!! Wait so you dont like lobot, but you want reserves to be viable? Isnt that just lobot to the extreme? 
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My point is if a character is an NPE for one or two players or at most a small majority then it's not an NPE. I think the results of the poll so far show that most people are just voicing that they hope he doesn't affect future design choices, not that they don't enjoy playing against him let alone find a squad containing 3 characters to be a NPE, if anything it should be the opposite and is to me, super easily out-activated and it's nothing new. The fact that I got lucky and barely scrapped out a regional win doesn't make this squad anywhere near the current gatekeepers or Tier 1. Like really it's three Force characters... there are so many force users out there already that people generally have jedi hunters/bounty hunters/assassin that Father squads are only good against a particular subtype of small activation Marlee/force heavy squads, and again that only makes it an even game not a counter at all.
Lastly an annoying piece that MUST be brought in every single squad (ala Lobot) is nothing at all like trying to build/utilize a functional reserves squad. Reinforcements 20 is not faction-specific reserves and definitely not the same as building an entire squad to maximize reserves success
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Okay, not to seem entirely ignorant, what exactly are the problematic Father squads? Grievous's Grievous and Kyle was cool, but worked because it was unexpected. GOWK + VoL has a lot of beef, but very little damage output.
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CorellianComedian wrote:Okay, not to seem entirely ignorant, what exactly are the problematic Father squads? Grievous's Grievous and Kyle was cool, but worked because it was unexpected. GOWK + VoL has a lot of beef, but very little damage output. +1 to this question
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I think some things are getting missed here. A) Something can be bad for the game without dominating the competitive scene. B) Something can be bad for the game without it being a mass NPE C) A "gatekeeper" is not always (in fact usually not) dominant in the competitive scene. So asking what problem Father squads there are is kind of irrelevant. This less-than-ideal poll has a lot to be desired. First and foremost - the sample size (number of responses) is dramatically low. It's to be expected, but it still really doesn't tell us much. Quote:He should be moved to the epic format only.
He is overpowered and needs to be redone. are both clearly negative Quote:I am worried about his impact on future design. Is also negative - but a side topic Quote:He is fine and doesn't need any changes.
He is powerful but there are counters available Are neutral/postive So - (again, small sample size - take everything with a grain of salt) - add the negatives vs the positives, and you get 11 vs 9. That makes the majority. Even if we throw out the 5 who voted 'I am worried about his impact on future design", it's 6 to 9. That's 40%. 40% of a community is NOWHERE NEAR a small fraction. Regardless - "I am worried about his impact on future design" is completely valid and should not be disregarded. I think one of the major issues with the piece is simply the core concept. Forcing squad building to an absolute extreme. It is a scenario piece. Or at best an Epic piece. It really shouldn't be a part of our core game. It effects the meta in a negative way. You have to look beyond simply immediate (sparse) results. It has an infinitely long reaching ripple effect. Sure - winning is fun. New stuff is fun. Surprising people is fun. That doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the game.
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My problem with this character is that I have never heard of this character. Is this a real Star Wars character, or was he created to draw in Catholic players?
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Darth_Jim wrote:My problem with this character is that I have never heard of this character. Is this a real Star Wars character, or was he created to draw in Catholic players? Bahahaha!  That was awesome Jim,
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Alright well in my opinion (the jedi are evil! Haha sorry couldn't resist) but seriously many, myself included have said, Bastilla is bad for the game, Munn Tactics broker is bad for the game, Buzz Droids and their huge hate are bad for the game, IG-Lancers are bad for the game, and so on... but these are just opinions and yet there is far more data to back up those actually being a cause for concern.
And I still can't remotely see how Father squads are considered gatekeepers? Especially over similar few activation high-point force users squads that I posted before. And I honestly don't think any serious player is going to be thinking "what if I go up against a Father squad" when he plans his build as it just gets lumped into a few activation force rock which has existed since he start of the game and is in its weakest but most interesting form here.
And if a piece winning a regional makes it super OP bad for the game gatekeeper that really discourages people ever bringing pieces for fear of the ban-hammer destroying anything that they enjoy. Other game companies already do this to their players but even then at least it's usually over pieces that are dominating or winning more. Which is definitely not the case here. We should be better than that and able to responsibly foster new ideas while preventing abuse.
Forced squad-building was a restriction put in place to prevent abuse and it does so wonderfully. Also it's one of the only ways to help people break out of their Lobot-dependent bubbles and rely on a thematic squad (as in Lost Tribe or Zenoc's Vong). This leads to fresh squad-building and more theme and variety rather then quasi-mirror matches.
But again I ask HOW does it affect the meta in a negative way? What squads are you actually afraid of? Or in comparison to the other force rock squads? How is he any different? Plenty of pieces already allow flexible squad building e.g. Revan with non-unique Jedi/Sith. New republic being able to take on rebel pieces, Mando and Sith connections and all of the many affinity pieces that create some heavy combos. Like Vergere in Sith squads, Powerful Mando's in Sith, and so on. The Father's strongest squads are barely even competitive and at most are force heavy gimic squads where you get to combine two users from different squads and give them a battery. Something that Palpatine and the Sith have been doing for years.
But the thing about opinions is that they usually don't change so I don't see much point in continuing to reason and defend this one. Also don't want to turn this into a fight because this awesome community doesn't need that. I stand by this though, the Father is the first truly creative, interesting and fresh idea in years and to ban/banish it based on completely unfounded fear-mongering is not the right option. Wait and see if he actually becomes a problem before flinch-reacting and crushing creativity and new ideas. I've said my piece and what happens will happen regardless. Going back to the custom forums now hahaha
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The Father has a serious impact on the future of designing for SWM as far as melee is concerned. There are already an endless amount of Combos that you can do with The Father. After you take that into consideration you will have to think about how any future force user that comes out will interact with pieces that they were not intended to work with. Guys like GOWK giving a plus 4/4. Guys like Cin that give Soresu or Makashi. It's insane from a design stand point to back yourself into a corner like that.
You look at Vader of Lothal, GOWK, and Father. You nuke a piece worth more than Vader, and leave GOWK on gambit. It's game guys. I've played multiple games now with the Father, and watched that Vader go toe to toe with Resistance Unique squads twice, and not fall until like the last round correct me if I'm wrong here DarthDracul, and in that time Vader has killed just about everything. Now imagine having GOWK in there. You finally drop Vader, after he has mowed down your squad, but now you have to deal with GOWK who is even worse. You can't use Force Powers. You can use Melee on Vader but he has a 26Defense, and Armor. You can try and fail to attack GOWK. You could waste some attacks putting dmg on Father who has a 24 defense, and 220 hp. It's a super rock squad. If you face melee, Nuke with Vader, win with Gowk and his unlimited amount of Force Push 3. If you face shooters, sit on gambit and laugh as they spend an hour trying to shoot you. Vader has a 30def in cover people.
It makes people have to run auto dmg. Vong is the viable option here. But that squad also needs to be nerfed. It's bad when you miss the days of Panaka of Theed.
The Father warps the game. You cannot run shooters against GOWK/Vader. Melee is just that, forget Force Powers to help them out.
And you better hope your melee piece can kill Vader before Vader kills him. Which most melee pieces that could don't have competitive builds. The Father should be changed.
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