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I was just looking at all the high costing pieces (64 and up)
It seems that the good guys get shafted all the time.
Old Republic: Thon, Kavar (who will not see time)
Republic: Mace Windu, LoftLS, Obi-Ani, Yoda on Geonosis
Rebels Ben Kenobi, Luke and Yoda, and Galen Marek??? none of those at all...
New Republic: Luke, Master of the Order, GM Luke, thats it.
Now look at the bad guys
Sith: (all the playable pieces have been made less than 60) Malgus (maybe), and 114 Krayt
Separatist: Sid SC, Dooku
Imperial: Lord Vader, Emperor Reborn, Sid Sith Mastermind, maybe Agent of Evil
This is a very low amount of competitive pieces in the above 64 price range. and on top of that how many of these pieces have actually done something of merit?
We are stuck in the 45-65 range for anything that wants to take us somewhere, I believe we should be going forward with the 65-85 point pieces that can carry a squad.
You can't tell me there isn't a way to make a fighting Yoda within that range that can be competitive.
Why is the 100 point Dooku and Sid so much better than the 100 point Yoda?
Or an upgraded Thon that can carry a squad.
What about a straight up, at his best Anakin Skywalker that costs 70?
Or even a usable Dooku that costs 70.
Or anything for Rebels at all in that price range.
Why have we moved/stayed in the 45-65 point ranC
Sith came out with new Plageius at 60 and Cognus at 50
Since set 9 so 10 and on not including epics
there are 3 pieces that cost 65-85. Obi-Ani, Ajunta Pall, and Enforcer
none of which are seen as competitive Obi-Ani being close.
There are 15 pieces that cost 45-64
Plagueis. Jango Mandalore, Kanan, Cognus, Lothal are competitive
So really it is more like 40-65 is the most competitive range for "main pieces" and than the back up pieces like Mira and Morrigan and others are 25-35.
Maybe we should be looking at the 65-85 point squad area and what it would take to make a piece actually competitive in that price range.
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You forgot The Father!
To some extent, I don't think every faction needs a Tier 1 heavy hitter in the 65-85 point range - Rebels for example, tend to be a group of a few uniques who work as a team - eg the Rogue One team, or the Rebels TV series guys, or the original trilogy guys. It tends to work like that in the game as well.
With Bastila squads in Old Republic I always find it hard to play a high cost unique, and find they work better with a few guys around 30 points. But I'd love to see a powerful OR Revan.
I also feel like high costing Jedi tend to come under a lot of scrutiny when they're released - there was a lot of consternation over Luke MotO when he came out, but he's never really proved to be a problem competitively.
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I also really enjoy the super rock squads but they are very hard to play due usually in large part to being out-activated. Plagueis was an awesome new direction and helps a bit. But really it's having a trick to counter being out-activated and subsequently swarmed and smashed. But definitely +1 for more BHC 100 point pieces. The Father, Revan, Dooku, other BHC have been the highlight of their respective sets for me and I try to use them despite their lack of competitiveness. Also bring on more epics!
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Could always make a 000/BT combo piece that could be over 65 points. I plan on making individuals for each at some point (likely once I finish my vehicle set I am working on), and they would be Fringe. The Chewbacca Wookie berserker I (and I think a few others may have made) a while back could have worked as something for the rebels. http://www.bloomilk.com/Custom/27615/chewbacca-berserker-wookieeBut of course they would not be official. Question I would have to ask is, should the game with EPIC pieces be a different format much like the Epic format of DnD minis? So that if we do release truly powerful epic pieces of say Ani or Luke among others we list them as epic so that they will be taken in that formats context and not in the standard (read what we are playing in now competitively) format. I also feel (as stated by GG) that a 80+ cost piece in a 100 or 200 point game usually has a very large bulls eye on its head. However I certainly do see the lure that others may have of playing a 600 point game with a handful of 65/80+ cost characters on both sides.
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Three Epic sets have been released and are in the database. They are not legal for standard games.
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indeed,
the > 100 pts range, and staggered activation framework,
are tentative hints at how vehicles were envisaged to be brought into 200, 250 and 300.
having a cap of at most 1 vehicle and at most 1 character,
and may not exceed half of all squad points AND activations,
that'd be one way to see more > 100pts pieces in the competitive scene.
vehicles need to be survivable from direct damage, and able to alter the terrain or squeeze,
otherwise they get trapped in many maps and TKO'd
to me personally though,
it seems like a variant of glass canon and san-hill squads...
why would you want a 3 act squad, made from 2 x ~100pts figure plus filler for a 250 squad?
and, with a 3 act squad, its highly likely gambit camp is a core 'strategy'...
slow play and gambit camp were already negative things with the San Hill camp squad...
and the paratus-y mirror of that.
why not play Dynamic Duos unlimited? (I admit my bias, Dynamic Duos Tile Wars is awesome!)
2 figures a side, similar points cap, variable grid size...
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Learn something every day :)
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TheHutts wrote:You forgot The Father!
To some extent, I don't think every faction needs a Tier 1 heavy hitter in the 65-85 point range - Rebels for example, tend to be a group of a few uniques who work as a team - eg the Rogue One team, or the Rebels TV series guys, or the original trilogy guys. It tends to work like that in the game as well.
With Bastila squads in Old Republic I always find it hard to play a high cost unique, and find they work better with a few guys around 30 points. But I'd love to see a powerful OR Revan.
I also feel like high costing Jedi tend to come under a lot of scrutiny when they're released - there was a lot of consternation over Luke MotO when he came out, but he's never really proved to be a problem competitively.
I didn't forget father or Revan I was taking about 65-85 point range. I like the idea of father, I think Revan was hurt by being fringe and having to design around every faction. As for old republic, they desperately need one. I still want to see a few sith Lords be competitive But I think that 65-85 point pieces can still be competitive in builds. About rebels, I think there is a place for Luke Skywalker, enraged when he overpowers Vader. Maybe 65 is passing it but 55-60 is within range. Galen Marek can push those costs. If powerful Jedi come under scrutiny for being powerful that is a shame. We should have stand alone Jedi pieces that can hold their own against stand alone dark side pieces. Cade should be as powerful as krayt. Yoda should be more powerful than dooku etc. I guess I see a lack of power scaling in a lot of ways
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SithBot wrote:I was just looking at all the high costing pieces (64 and up)
New Republic: Luke, Master of the Order, GM Luke, thats it. SithBot wrote:I didn't forget father or Revan I was taking about 65-85 point range. This is a little confusing, as you effectively listed all the 64+ point pieces, then claimed you weren't talking about them. You are essentially correct that there are very few competitive pieces in the 65-85 point piece range. I think Obi-Ani has potential - definitely difficult to shoot. Karness Muur used to see some play locally. SithBot wrote:I think Revan was hurt by being fringe and having to design around every faction. In my post, I was talking about how I would like to see a high cost (maybe c65 points) Old Republic Revan. SithBot wrote:About rebels, I think there is a place for Luke Skywalker, enraged when he overpowers Vader. Maybe 65 is passing it but 55-60 is within range. Luke Hero of Endor pretty much fills the niche in terms of the enraged overpowering Vader - he's a beast for 44 points. Galen Marek and NR Cade are two of the most disappointing v-set pieces for me - they both came in way under-powered IMO. Cade's the one time I felt not listened to as a play-tester - I really felt like he needed triple and/or a big cost reduction to be competitive, but right now he's very underwhelming. It's not workable to have an expensive piece reliant on a risky ability like Dark Temptation.
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I have never noticed that before.
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I'd say part of the problem is the Epic Villain effect. Good guys usually don't get to be the one-man powerhouses like the main villains do.
Thus, most Star Wars characters that qualify for one-man powerhouse status are either Darth Vader, or old Sith Lords. Most old Sith Lords were WotC, and thus rather stiff and unwieldy for their cost.
Another part of the problem is that a lot of 65-85 point pieces aren't worth 65-85 - again, see WotC. Like the first Revan piece - he's got cool stuff going on, but I'm not sure I'd pay 58 for him, much less 88.
Big +1 on Galen Marek and Cade.
I think part of it is also up to interpretation of how the game should look - the high 60-80 point range has usually been reserved for the type of "legendary" characters that have absolute beast moments of destroying multiple skilled foes - again, these are usually villains in general, and in Star Wars they end up being the legendary Sith Lords. So then it becomes a question of: does Obi-Wan/Anakin/Luke really measure up to legends like Marka Ragnos or Darth Bane?
But I would totally love to see more high-point cost characters (Kao Cen Darach!), as well as some help for those who are almost there, like Cade and Galen.
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The problem with high cost figures is the same as it's always been: activation count requirements. When a 6 pt. figure has a straight up 50/50 chance of locking your 50+ point melee figure down to stop you from activating it, you're less likely to just come in with 3-5 big hitters.
And that's just the extreme example. More likely you're facing a 17-22 figure squad with tempo control on the phases that will just overwhelm your 1-figure army. The only solution to this problem is one that was never implemented. The game should have had activation limits, perhaps with a restriction on the number of characters a squad can have or limits on the maximum number of activations per round. But some 25 or more sets later and it is what it is.
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Boris wrote:The problem with high cost figures is the same as it's always been: activation count requirements. When a 6 pt. figure has a straight up 50/50 chance of locking your 50+ point melee figure down to stop you from activating it, you're less likely to just come in with 3-5 big hitters.
And that's just the extreme example. More likely you're facing a 17-22 figure squad with tempo control on the phases that will just overwhelm your 1-figure army. The only solution to this problem is one that was never implemented. The game should have had activation limits, perhaps with a restriction on the number of characters a squad can have or limits on the maximum number of activations per round. But some 25 or more sets later and it is what it is. +1.
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