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V-set 14 Design insight - SAs, FPs and CEs Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2017 12:26:53 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
In prepping for V-set 14, we tried to be very intentional about what SAs, FPs and CEs we were going to use. We had lots of ideas, and many ended up on the cutting room floor. Others came about later out of necessity.

We did however have some specific goals. Not only for our set, but to add abilities that future designers could use.

One umbrella concept that was a big part of the set was the idea of "damage capping"

I feel like what has been missing from our game for quite some time is the feeling of gameplay like it was early on. The feeling of having a big bad dude be able to wade into the fight and last a few rounds. And I'm not talking about doing it through means of a ton of saves. As fun as flipping a pack of quarters is, it's much more fun to have a game where aggressive action will result in actual damage, yet where the defender can take a bunch of hits and live to be able to do something back. The issue is that we've been trying to solve the problem of skyrocketing damage through defensive abilities that avoid or prevent damage. This only encourages the cycle to continue. Abilities like evade, LS defense, damage reduction, etc are all fine, but they are not a complete solution. These abilities ultimately encourage increasing damage, and hiding more often.

What we need are abilities to cap damage.

We included a couple of SAs and FPs spread throughout the set (hopefully to get the ball rolling for other designers to expand upon as well.)

Advanced Diffusion Armor, Diffusion Armor, LS Protection 1 and 2

Note that the SAs are weaker than the FPs. FPs should be stronger, because they cost to use. The SAs shut off when the enemy is adjacent, thus encouraging close engagement.

The idea is the end result that there would be more legitimate fights in the game. Not due to a bunch of save rolls (or a lot of misses), but due to the fact that small ammounts of damage were slowly accumulating. No more hiding a beafy figure out of fear that being exposed for a single phase would mean their death. There would be more action, and less frustration about positive aggressive action ammounting to nothing because of a bunch of saves. Go out and fight, do some damage, take some back, give back some more!

This concept is one way of going outside the box we seem to be stuck in of more saves. Walk your big bad jedi out there with LS Protection into the fight, he'll slowly take damage, but won't die in a phase, and also won't live forever based on great saves. What opponent squads would stuggle with it? Outactivate and smash, cannon squads, squads with only a few hitters. This is a good thing IMO. People will have to spend less on tech on more on offense. People will have to bring their commanders out from hiding to take shots as well. Bring their whole squad into the fight. All of the above will benefit the game imo. To boil it all down: Roll the dice more for attacks, less for saves.

In the line of less saves, we intentionally created very few new abilities with a save. Saves have their place, but it has run rampant. We were vigilant to include less new save based abilities than virtually any other set.



Outside of the Damage Capping concept, we also tried to make several SAs, FPs and CEs to combat common NPEs. Some of those are:

Banish, Defense Beacon, Exterminate, Faith in the Force, Fortified (and Phalanx Formation), Interference, Interdict, Junk Boss, Pin Down, Scramble Signal, Stalwart, Stifling Attack, Wager, Force Awareness, Force Curse, Force Premonition, Booster Terrik's CE, EV-9D9's CE, Venku Skirata's CE, Darth Baras' CE, etc.

Now it should go without saying that one person's NPE is not another person's. That said, each of the abilites above responds in some way to an NPE, even sometimes multiple ones, that we heard complaints over and over about. Very few of them are "hard counters". Most just soften the NPE.

Additionally, we wanted to create "lighter" versions of existing (often overpowered) abilities. This gives designers future options to NOT use the overpowered ability, even though the theme seems to fit. They can use a more appropriately powered ability in the same vein. Stifiling Attack, Retaliatory Attack, Valiant Reprisal, Local Reserves 12, Interference, Scramble Signal, Vu'traat Reinforcements 20, and Unit Bodyguard

Other times they are simply a variation on an existing ability such as Heavy Blaster 30.

As stated in the other thread, a couple abilities had to be made to prevent abuse; Singular Focus, Solitary Attack, Warden. Exterminate is an ability that served 2 functions. Obviously - hurting the major NPE of Avoid Defeat was part of it. The other very important part is nerfing it for their own team, not just enemies. The reason for this is that the pieces it is on (and the charcters they boost) are easily recipients of Avoid Defeat. Grapple Droids boost Bodyguard Droids, which with their officer ALL get avoid defeat. The 8th cortex shaper and Malik Carr make dangerous sqauads, and Avoid Defeat is easily added in the Vong (due to the Yun Ne'shell Priest). The priest also gives +4 to saves, so a super boosted (from the 8th Cortex shaper) big bad unique could survive ridiculously long. Malik could become a nearly eternal bodyguard. Or worse yet - you could combine the two! Many designers of other sets implored us to make sure eternal bodyguards couldn't happen. Not gonna happen on our watch!

We also of course wanted abilities to be flavorful specific to the piece. Obviously old abilities provided most of that, as well as many from the list above. Some were super thematic, and we felt just had to be made for their corrosponding pieces such as; Holocron, Sacrifical Cover Fire, Sith Lore, Light Inspiration, Dark Allure, Thermal Detinator/Imploder, Us-hrok, Tulok Hord's Holocron, etc

Finally, we added a few that are straightforward and we felt should have been made long ago, such as; Banish, Flank, Force-Attuned, Rally, Infantry Turret, Thug, Force Curse, etc.


So all in all, we tried to cover as many angles as possible.



To reiterate from the first thread -

In the coming days I will make more threads detailing our process. I recognize that it probably opens us up to criticism of how we failed in certain aspects, but let's try to keep that to a minimum. We already have multi-page threads on very specific things some people don't like. The reason for this post (and others to follow) are simply to share our process.

Note - this post is obviously directly from me (TimmerB123), and though I tried to make it general, ideas from other designers on V-set 14 may differ on some aspects. I welcome them to post their thoughts as well.

I am of course happy to answer any questions to the best of my abilities as well.
TimmerB123
Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 8:24:25 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
The cutting room floor

Here are some SA/FP/CE concepts that didn't make the cut. For some it's probably apparent why they didn't make it. Others were very painful removals.

Have fun discussing which ones should be put on future figures and which should never see the light of day.

Quote:
Force Scream [1 FP, Usable when this character is defeated: Enemy characters within 6 lose 3 Force Points. All enemies gain -4 defense for the rest of the skirmish.] (To be on a mid to high cost Darkside Force User)

Lying in Wait [Replaces turn - Usable only if the rest of your squad is activated. This character may take an immediate turn after the last enemy activation this round] (medium to high cost unique - NOT an offensive powerhouse)

Skimmer [Enemy and allied characters added to a squad through reinforcements or bribery may not gain any bonuses from an ability or commander effect that reference reinforcements] (Marn's Bribed characters don't get con artist, Quorreal's reinforcements don't get aggressive negotiations, etc)

Yaret-Kor Neonate [Replaces turn: move up to speed then - sight; make 2 attacks for exactly 10 Damage. Damage from attacks this turn cannot be increased by any means, nor can it be prevented or redirected] (Obviously for Vong, only on a mid-high cost unique. A weak damage non-melee attack for Vong)

Concussion Rifle [An enemy hit by this character's attack is pushed back one square] (Again, on a unique)

Deflect Shrapnel [Enemies who use an ability that replaces attacks to damage this character take 10 damage. This damage may not be prevented.] (Can't counter blast bugs, but it kills a PV scout that uses one!)

Detonator Defuser [This character and each adjacent ally ignores Rigged Detonators] (Rigging defuser is very strong. This is a lighter version (must be adjacent) that can be added to other factions)

Disarm [An adjacent enemy who takes damage from this character's attack gains the Melee special ability until the end of this character's next turn, or until this character is defeated.] (On a mid-high cost unique. Anti-melee, but only works adjacent.)

Twin Rend [If both of this character's twin attacks hit the same adjacent enemy, this character's second of the twin attacks gets +10 Damage] (Seems logical - why hasn't this happened yet?)

Blaster Beam Splitter [replaces attacks: Attack the same enemy for exactly 10 damage 3 times. This damage cannot be increased by any means, nor can it be prevented or redirected] (Twin +1 {triplet?} attack, but damage capped to exactly 10 damage)

Damage Limitation [This character's base damage (Damage) may never increase for any reason. Damage from this character's attacks cannot be prevented or redirected] (Damage Cap)

Direct Command [This character is not subject to allied commander effects except from {insert commander or group of commanders here}] (Variable. I.E. - only subject to Ewok commanders, Trooper Commanders, Commanders with a Force Rating, etc. It's a great way to limit characters in stronger factions without resorting to rival)

Fermata [If enemy's attack on this character misses, until the end of that turn, any damage this character takes is reduced to 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be prevented or redirected] (Useful versus multi-attackers with high damage. Force users won't miss as often and can reroll, so it effects shooters much more)

Force Accuracy [This character, while using a force power, may target an enemy with cover even if it is not the nearest enemy; even while adjacent to an enemy.] (Go ahead - Force lightning that group 6 squares away while based by an enemy ugnaught)

Neoglith Masquer [At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique Wraith or Yuuzhan Vong ally. That ally gains Shapeshifter.] (we decided this was unessesary to create for a one time use)

Squad blockade [Enemies who start their move within 6 squares gain speed 4, while 3 allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares]

Stregnthen Defense [When an attack against this character misses, this character gains +4 defense for the rest of the turn]

Troop Shield [Replaces attacks, until the end of the round, this character and adjacent characters who take damage from nonadjacent attacks take 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be reduced or redirected]

Apprentice [The number of allies who count as having the same name as this character cannot exceed the number of commanders in the squad.] (nips this "everyone counts as the same name" crap in the bud, as well as spamming that non-unique)

Bacta Bomb X [Replaces attacks, remove X damage from this character and adjacent living characters]

Beast Driver [Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 large, Savage ally with a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed]

Cosmic Centering [All characters (enemies and allies alike) are immune to critical hits. All 20's and 1's rolled for attack by any character must be rerolled.] (high cost force user)

Fringe Indoctrination [Characters that join your squad anytime after the first initiative roll due to enemy abilities or CEs gain Fringe]

Heavy Machinery [Cannot move outside of its turn]

Hit and Run [Replaces turn: this character may move up to 2 squares, make all its attacks against an adjacent opponent, then move its speed. This turn, it is immune to AoOs] (kinda like Ambush or backlash, but you can only move 2, then you can run after the hits)

Hunt Saboteur [This character and allies within 6 are not effected by enemy abilities that contain the words Hunter or Assassin]

Lone Wolf [This character is not subject to allied commander effects] (self contained, so no worries about being boosted into brokenness)

Orbital Strike 20 [Replaces turn; Choose a square within line of sight and 12 squares; at the end of the next turn, characters within 6 squares to that square take 20 damage]

Pack Mentality [At the start of the skirmish, choose 1 ally. Once per turn, when that ally is hit by an attack, this character may make an immediate attack against that attacker if it can]

Proximity Bomb 20 [Replaces attack; Choose 1 adjacent door or low object square, the first enemy character to move adjacent to that door or square takes 20 damage. This ability does not stack.]

Reinforced Defense [When an enemy's attack on this character misses, until the end of the turn, any damage this character takes is reduced to 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be prevented or redirected]

Relentless [If this character's first attack hits on its turn, gain +4 Attack on all other attacks this turn.]

Scout Binoculars [Replaces attacks, until the end of the round, this character and allies within 6 squares may immediately move up to their speed whenever an enemy changes position via an allies’ ability or commander effect within line of sight of this character]

X-8 Night Sniper [Replaces attacks; Choose 1 enemy within line of sight, ignoring cover. Make an attack against that enemy, +4 Attack]
shmi15
Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 11:28:30 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 1,291
TimmerB123 wrote:
The cutting room floor

Here are some SA/FP/CE concepts that didn't make the cut. For some it's probably apparent why they didn't make it. Others were very painful removals.

Have fun discussing which ones should be put on future figures and which should never see the light of day.

Quote:
Force Scream [1 FP, Usable when this character is defeated: Enemy characters within 6 lose 3 Force Points. All enemies gain -4 defense for the rest of the skirmish.] (To be on a mid to high cost Darkside Force User)

Lying in Wait [Replaces turn - Usable only if the rest of your squad is activated. This character may take an immediate turn after the last enemy activation this round] (medium to high cost unique - NOT an offensive powerhouse)

Skimmer [Enemy and allied characters added to a squad through reinforcements or bribery may not gain any bonuses from an ability or commander effect that reference reinforcements] (Marn's Bribed characters don't get con artist, Quorreal's reinforcements don't get aggressive negotiations, etc)

Yaret-Kor Neonate [Replaces turn: move up to speed then - sight; make 2 attacks for exactly 10 Damage. Damage from attacks this turn cannot be increased by any means, nor can it be prevented or redirected] (Obviously for Vong, only on a mid-high cost unique. A weak damage non-melee attack for Vong)

Concussion Rifle [An enemy hit by this character's attack is pushed back one square] (Again, on a unique)

Deflect Shrapnel [Enemies who use an ability that replaces attacks to damage this character take 10 damage. This damage may not be prevented.] (Can't counter blast bugs, but it kills a PV scout that uses one!)

Detonator Defuser [This character and each adjacent ally ignores Rigged Detonators] (Rigging defuser is very strong. This is a lighter version (must be adjacent) that can be added to other factions)

Disarm [An adjacent enemy who takes damage from this character's attack gains the Melee special ability until the end of this character's next turn, or until this character is defeated.] (On a mid-high cost unique. Anti-melee, but only works adjacent.)

Twin Rend [If both of this character's twin attacks hit the same adjacent enemy, this character's second of the twin attacks gets +10 Damage] (Seems logical - why hasn't this happened yet?)

Blaster Beam Splitter [replaces attacks: Attack the same enemy for exactly 10 damage 3 times. This damage cannot be increased by any means, nor can it be prevented or redirected] (Twin +1 {triplet?} attack, but damage capped to exactly 10 damage)

Damage Limitation [This character's base damage (Damage) may never increase for any reason. Damage from this character's attacks cannot be prevented or redirected] (Damage Cap)

Direct Command [This character is not subject to allied commander effects except from {insert commander or group of commanders here}] (Variable. I.E. - only subject to Ewok commanders, Trooper Commanders, Commanders with a Force Rating, etc. It's a great way to limit characters in stronger factions without resorting to rival)

Fermata [If enemy's attack on this character misses, until the end of that turn, any damage this character takes is reduced to 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be prevented or redirected] (Useful versus multi-attackers with high damage. Force users won't miss as often and can reroll, so it effects shooters much more)

Force Accuracy [This character, while using a force power, may target an enemy with cover even if it is not the nearest enemy; even while adjacent to an enemy.] (Go ahead - Force lightning that group 6 squares away while based by an enemy ugnaught)

Neoglith Masquer [At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique Wraith or Yuuzhan Vong ally. That ally gains Shapeshifter.] (we decided this was unessesary to create for a one time use)

Squad blockade [Enemies who start their move within 6 squares gain speed 4, while 3 allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares]

Stregnthen Defense [When an attack against this character misses, this character gains +4 defense for the rest of the turn]

Troop Shield [Replaces attacks, until the end of the round, this character and adjacent characters who take damage from nonadjacent attacks take 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be reduced or redirected]

Apprentice [The number of allies who count as having the same name as this character cannot exceed the number of commanders in the squad.] (nips this "everyone counts as the same name" crap in the bud, as well as spamming that non-unique)

Bacta Bomb X [Replaces attacks, remove X damage from this character and adjacent living characters]

Beast Driver [Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 large, Savage ally with a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed]

Cosmic Centering [All characters (enemies and allies alike) are immune to critical hits. All 20's and 1's rolled for attack by any character must be rerolled.] (high cost force user)

Fringe Indoctrination [Characters that join your squad anytime after the first initiative roll due to enemy abilities or CEs gain Fringe]

Heavy Machinery [Cannot move outside of its turn]

Hit and Run [Replaces turn: this character may move up to 2 squares, make all its attacks against an adjacent opponent, then move its speed. This turn, it is immune to AoOs] (kinda like Ambush or backlash, but you can only move 2, then you can run after the hits)

Hunt Saboteur [This character and allies within 6 are not effected by enemy abilities that contain the words Hunter or Assassin]

Lone Wolf [This character is not subject to allied commander effects] (self contained, so no worries about being boosted into brokenness)

Orbital Strike 20 [Replaces turn; Choose a square within line of sight and 12 squares; at the end of the next turn, characters within 6 squares to that square take 20 damage]

Pack Mentality [At the start of the skirmish, choose 1 ally. Once per turn, when that ally is hit by an attack, this character may make an immediate attack against that attacker if it can]

Proximity Bomb 20 [Replaces attack; Choose 1 adjacent door or low object square, the first enemy character to move adjacent to that door or square takes 20 damage. This ability does not stack.]

Reinforced Defense [When an enemy's attack on this character misses, until the end of the turn, any damage this character takes is reduced to 10 damage instead. This damage cannot be prevented or redirected]

Relentless [If this character's first attack hits on its turn, gain +4 Attack on all other attacks this turn.]

Scout Binoculars [Replaces attacks, until the end of the round, this character and allies within 6 squares may immediately move up to their speed whenever an enemy changes position via an allies’ ability or commander effect within line of sight of this character]

X-8 Night Sniper [Replaces attacks; Choose 1 enemy within line of sight, ignoring cover. Make an attack against that enemy, +4 Attack]




I Bolded all the abilities I liked that didn't make the cut list! Nice looking ones.

There is one ability... I bolded, underlined, and Italicized it for you. Mace Windu has been nerfed enough I think, no need to continue to come out with abilities to make him more and more.... Obsolete.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:42:16 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/9/2008
Posts: 4,729
Location: Chicago
I won't go through my personal feelings on every ability (some I am glad didn't see the light of day, and some I really hope make it out there.)

Each didn't make it for a reason - and it was a wide variety of reasons.
-They weren't serving a needed function
-They didn't fit the character
-They were too strong/too weak
-They could be approximated by existing abilities
-They would never be used again
-Too dangerous for future (inappropriate) reuse
-Too complicated (without it having to be complicated - i.e. Holocron)
-Rules quagmires abound
-Character was already stacked
-We already had a good number of new abilities
-They hurt things that were weak
-They boosted things that were already strong

Obviously if it was just because it didn't fit a particular character, or the character was already stacked - those are valid reasons to not include them in set 14, but no reason they couldn't be used in future sets. There was a small handful of abilities that were unanimously liked by the team, but just couldn't fit into our set.

Any of the other reasons should give a designer at least some pause, if not ignoring the idea altogether.

Some of the abilities were sort of tossed in for discussion, but were quickly shot down (even sometimes by the designer suggesting it after thinking it through more). Others we went around and around trying to keep the ability in the set, but in the end we simply couldn't justify it.


FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, October 6, 2017 9:53:24 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
Interesting insights.
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